Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: thomas74p on June 12, 2014, 10:02:27 am
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I'm somwhat new to building bows and would like to show what I have so far and accept any thoughts, ideas or suggestions.
I'm from oklahoma so I natuarlly chose a nice osage orange tree to start with. I found a nice thick butt log that was pretty straight and undamaged by bugs or knots, as far as osage orange goes at least. the stave was well over 60 inches. I cut it in november and let it dry till around may. since then I have cut it down to real close to the dimensions I want and in late may/early june I made a steam bath and jig and began reflexing and recurving it. in straight form it is 58 inches long so about 56 inches now from tip to tip and the tips are 23mm wide and 14mm thick. I plan to thin the width more all the way to the handle to tune each side. I figure i'll leave it in the jig till late august also the back is almost perfectly down to one ring only around one or two knots is it at the ring below. overall I'm pretty happy with it. it was one tough piece of wood to shape and work. in the end I hope for a 52-54 inch bow and hope to have around 38 pounds in draw at 26 inches. I'm short and my effective draw length is only 27 and at 38 pounds I think 26" would be more reallistic. if I get 30 pounds I'll take it bout really hope to be more. I know for sure however that at 40 pounds or more my shooting becomes to inaccurate to be trully effective. planning on using it for small game, turkey and if it's fast enough and shoots straight enough someday for dear. also I plan to make my string from bcy 8125G. any thoughts or suggestions are welcome and will be appreciated.
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You are putting alot of work in that little piece of wood , hope it turns out the way you want !
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Is there a reason you are putting so much deflex into the bow
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it's still in tension right now. by deflex I suppose reflex and deflex are interchangable terms? when I take it out of the jig I doubt it will have nearly that much. even the recurve at the tips will straighten a bit too. my goal with the reflex is to help it get more speed when shot. if I'm wrong let me know. like I said I'm new to the build process.
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Reflex is forward of the handle and deflex is behind the handle. You've added a bunch of deflex with a tad of reflex at the tips.
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just to clarify my pics the back is not visible as it is facing the floor. the belly is facing up and you can see almost all of it. thats why I refered to the handle as being reflexed. and the tips to be recurved.
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It would be a nice shape if that was the braced shape. Instead of shaping a green stave, I think you would get better results adding the shape you want with seasoned wood using heat.
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pat. do you suppose it will straighten out too much in august when I release it? I did let it dry from november to may. and steamed it over a 3 day period in which I slowly added tension to it to get it to shape. I remade the jig a week later and steamed it one more day as I put the final shape into it and made sure everything was straight and evenly curved and while out of the jig it retained it's reflex and some of it's reurve really well. however the limbs did straighten quite a bit and had only retained a slight curve.. the second jig I tried to give the limbs a little more tension, in hopes the would retain a little more curve once released. would it help if I left it in the jig longer than 3 months?
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As the others have said I think you added too much deflex.. When you bract that bow you will not have the early draw weight that is desired. Like I said that is a nice shape if that was your braced shape
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Id suggest taking it off now and hoping 1/2 of the deflex you tried to add returns.
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yes sir. can it be fixed?
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Yep Thomas, you bent the bow the wrong way. You can still use heat to straighten it back out, You have deflex in that bow. Reflex is bending the limbs the opposite way. You bw will seriously be lacking power if you deflex it that much.
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well crap. this is not what I was hoping to hear. I do appreciate ya'lls help though. wish me luck I guess. it was a heck of a straight stave but I still have the other half. half of which is tension side wood so I could still make another. and it's still drying in the pantry since november. I was hoping to be hunting by october.
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Id suggest following one of the many bow build alongs on this site, and buy the bowyer bibles.
Good luck on your build
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Yep I definetly agree to much deflex looks like you already have it bent to brace height
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No worries on huntin by Oct. you got plenty of time to make a huntin weight bow. Best bet is to get that other stave out and reduced down to near bow dimensions purty quick then post pics and let these generous and kind hearted fellers talk ya thru it. May even be some hope yet for that stick you're workin on... but I'd get er outta that form asap.
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Welcome to bowbuilding101...its a steep learning curve,and be prepared and expect mistakes will be made..just learn from them and move on and try try try again,and then try again another umpteen times ;)
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for your target draw length vers. bow length, your deflex should be fine. but the key here is if its not make another one.
YOU can't make only one >:D O:) ;D ;D ;D
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Then too, there's the mistake of using "mm" instead of in". >:D
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still a little confusused on the whole reflex vs deflex. decided showing the bow facing the floor could be confusing some viewers so just to clarify. I think this bow is reflexed and recurved at the tips. so I modified the picture to help clear up any confusion.
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The limbs are BEHIND the handle, that is deflexed. The bit at the tips is reflexed, it is bent forward of the bows imaginary centerline.
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but the limbs are only behind the handle bcause I have em bent back. out of the jig the limbs will be straight when unbraced and therefore be bent forward of the handle. will it be reflexed then? if not what the heck shape is reflexed?
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What makes you think they will be straight out of the jig if they are forced into a dried deflex in the form?
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Better yet. Take it out of that jig. Its not going to take you anywhere you want to go. Take a picture of it then, held in your hand as you would shoot it.
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This should clear it up for you. First pic shows reflex and second pic shows deflex.
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In the two pictures above, the back of the bow (the face that is towards the target when shooting the bow) is facing up, towards the sky.
Furthermore, the second picture not only shows DEflex, it also shows reCURVEd tips.
Be aware that both bows are unbraced. Reflex and deflex are always measured when the bow is relaxed. Recurve also, although you will still be able to see recurves when the bow is braced or drawn. That is not the case with reflex and deflex, which is invisible as soon as the bow is braced.
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Here's what your bow will look like with a string on it. You've basically taken a straight piece of wood and forced it to look like a braced bow. This is a bad thing.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/bow_zps8ca0ba35.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/bow_zps8ca0ba35.jpg.html)
What you want in a bow is tension at brace. Stored energy. If the bow is already at brace height without a string even on it, when you do eventually brace it to a sensible brace height the bow will have no stored energy ergo no snap crackle and pop when you let go of the string. This is also a bad thing.
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If you're saying that once this bow comes out of the form those limbs are going to come all the way back to end up in FRONT of the handle, then yes you've added recurved tips and you've added reflex at the handle. Which is going to be a bit of a pig to tiller, especially considering that this is your first ever bow. However, I gotta admit, I don't think that they will come back that much. I think by the time the wood dries out and you take it off that form, it's going to look quite a lot like it already does. So you've essentially added a bunch of deflex, with some nice recurved tips. I may be wrong on this, but I don't think those tips are going to do much with that amount of deflex.
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It would appear that you are striving for a 5 curve type profile. I have a couple pictures for you to look at. The first pick is the unbraced (unstrung) profile. The pink cloth is the back of the bow (the side that faces the target) you will notice that despite the curves, the limb tips are a couple inches forward of the handle. This is reflex. This is the basic unstrung 5 curve profile. The next pic is the same bow braced (strung). Notice how far the limbs have to be bent to get the string on it. This is important to get the energy stored in the limbs so that when you pull the bow back, the starting draw weight is higher. That means more total stored energy available to be transferred to the arrow upon release. Or in other words, more speed. Josh
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The best suggestion I can offer you is to forget all the reflex, deflex and recurves for now. Concentrate your efforts on tillering a flat straight stick for now. That will prove to be plenty of a challenge for you at this stage of the game. I know everyone wants to come straight out of the gate with the best bow ever made by mere mortals on there first try. It don't work like that. You'll have way better luck by keeping it simple for awhile until you get the basics down pat. There's no shame in simple bows and they can ( if properly done) outperform the more advanced designs that are only mediocre in execution. Walk before you run and all that. Josh
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The best suggestion I can offer you is to forget all the reflex, deflex and recurves for now. Concentrate your efforts on tillering a flat straight stick for now. That will prove to be plenty of a challenge for you at this stage of the game. I know everyone wants to come straight out of the gate with the best bow ever made by mere mortals on there first try. It don't work like that. You'll have way better luck by keeping it simple for awhile until you get the basics down pat. There's no shame in simple bows and they can ( if properly done) outperform the more advanced designs that are only mediocre in execution. Walk before you run and all that. Josh
X10.....solid sage advice right there,n I'd take it if I were you
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Yes, indeed. Great advice. Forget the heating, bending and form stuff and make a bow from as straight a stave as you can find.
White woods like hickory, hop hornbeam and white oak will make a great bow.
Red oak boards as long as they are straight grained will make you a good shooter.
All of the above will make a good DEER hunting bow.
Check my site for more.
Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
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Yes, indeed. Great advice. Forget the heating, bending and form stuff and make a bow from as straight a stave as you can find.
White woods like hickory, hop hornbeam and white oak will make a great bow. No ring chasing needed.
Red oak boards as long as they are straight grained will make you a good shooter.
All of the above will make a good DEER hunting bow.
Check my site for more.
Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
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would like to offer my apologies to those who tried to help me in the beginning of the post. I didn't quite understand but now I do. I came off as a bit of an ass and hardheaded and I wish I had not. please accept my apology. I took the bow out of the jig and will try to straighten the deflex I put in it back out and hope for the best. thanks for the advice and help. when I get it done I will post up my results and impressions. and some pics.
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this is'nt my first build. it's just the first heavy bow I've tried that hasn't broke yet. yet at least. I've gone through about 5 staves in 5 years. this is however the best peice of wood I've ever found and it seems like it is gonna do better than any other I've ever made. thats why I was trying to make a recurve and put some reflex in it also. Just want to give this peice of wood all I can. is there a limit to steaming. I mean, will steaming a section more than once harm the wood any more or less. also will it weaken it? I'm gonna have to steam it again to straighten out some of the deflex I put in it. GUNDOC that pic you posted is in fact what I was aiming at. hope I can still achieve that. I don't however feel like I should have so much space between the string and handle. my draw length is only 24.5 inches so I don't want 12 inches between the two. thoughts?
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That space is called brace height. Most all bows will fall between 5 and 6" when properly tuned. Its not about what you want to see, its about bow tuning. I wouldn't use steam for anything on your blank. Dry heat will do it all for you with much less damage to the wood.
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like a hair dryer. most bows I like have had about 5-6 inches of brace height. that pic just looks like alot more!
like a hair dryer? for dry heat? I also have a heat gun I use in the auto repair shop. it gets pretty hot though.
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Heat gun. warm a limb on low, only hitting the belly, not the back. Once I can feel the heat on the back of the bow I switch to high and give my black locust a good slow browning with long sweeps across the whole limb.
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damn! that sounds a bit hot. I never would have thought that much heat. even for osage? I'll give it a try. I used steam to put the bends in it I already have. hope I didn't weaken it. probly why my last 5 staves have cracked during the tuning process.
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I use my heat gun on high and hold it about 3-4" away from the wood sweeping it back and forth over 4-6" area. After about 60-90 seconds the surface will be too hot to touch, that's when you bend and clamp. Then move along to the next 4-6" area until your to the tips, or whatever area you want to stop at.
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thanks. I will deffinetly try this. also will try this next year with the other half of that stave. it's still in the pantry and like I said it's the nicest I"ve ever seen.
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It seems like you've got a lot to learn. Which is perfectly fine of course, but after five broken bows, you want to gain some confidence and just build a bow that lasts. And I'm sorry to say this, but a 56" osage character stave that you want to heat bend into a reflex or five-curve design is a very poor choice in that respect. You're just making it far too complicated on yourself. And for what reason? Ditch the heat bending and just build a straight bow. And why only 56" with a stiff handle? I know you're going for a low draw length, but you're making a highly stressed shortbow now! Go for a bendy handle with that length, or (my advise) go for a 64" bow. Sure, 56" can be done. But gosh, you're making it hard for yourself! Keep it simple, stupid.
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I'm with Darksoul on this one. The K.I.S.S. approach will be better in the long run. You say your stave is primo, that you've failed 5 times already and we've all read that you are still learning much about this hobby (terms, techniques, & bow design.) if you just want one bow of a particular design then go buy one. But if you want to learn how to build them, in all their varied forms, you're gonna need to crawl before you walk. Do yourself a favor and make a straight stick bend evenly then move on to more difficult designs.
This is the right place to get your questions answered (so long as you're listening,) just make sure to take it slow, post pics, then listen to the advise given. There's more bow building talent represented here than you could ever hope to pay for. Good luck!
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The reason the brace height looks so high is because the bow is only 3 foot long. Here's the full thread http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45728.0.html
The brace height is only 4 1/2".
The grown up version looks a little more proportional .
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,33979.0.html
However, I still believe you should start simple. Josh
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, or (my advise) go for a 64" bow. S.
I don't want a bow thats taller than me :laugh:
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There's more bow building talent represented here than you could ever hope to pay for. Good luck!
I see that. ;)
my motorcycle forums arn't as active as this place nor do they stay on topic as well. not as nice and friendly either. I like this place.
also not trying to start a carreer in making bows here. this is way harder than dad made it look. I just want one good bow. but I aint into buying what means alot to me. to love it, I must make it. thats what my daddy did and thats what I'll do. I sure do aprreciate all the tips. I'm gonna use em all for the other half of this stave and I'll take it slower and ask questions before I screw up again, but I still think this bow can be saved too. just may not be as strong as it could have been.
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Let me start off by saying I know nothing when it comes to this.
If you have broken 5 bows, and you continue to tell people that you are going to build this bow no matter what advise that these masters tell you, you are going to have a 6th broken bow. I am generally a know it all, and when you don't, that makes people really not want to help you. If you ask for help and then refuse the help that people offer, you will soon find your posts unanswered. My humble advise is ask a question and then take the advice of the people trying to help you, they truly do know more than you or I. If you continue to ask, get and answer and then respond with " I still think this bow can be saved too", and do what you planned all along, they will politely stop giving advice. It is called being an askhole.
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sorry let me clarify myself. I'm now trying out the advice they have given and will someday apply that advise to the other half of the stave. but I can't just toss this almost finished bow in the fire, right. so I will continue on with it and see what it yeilds. by continue on, I mean using the good advice given to me here. already tried out the heat gun trick on a bow I cracked at the handle and it worked way better than I could have thought possible.
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No need to toss it into the fire, but I would recommend you to start with a fresh piece of wood. Start with the other half of the log and create a functional bow from that half. Only then get back to this messed up stick and try to save it. With the experiences gained from your easier half of the log, you will a better chance of success for it (but still no guarantee). If you need only one bow anyway, why save a screwed up attempt if you have more decent wood waiting for you?
And a bow doesn't care how tall you are. "I don't want a bow thats taller than me" is very stubborn attitude and has no logic reasoning behind it. The bow's length should match the desired draw length, bow's width, wood species etc. It doesn't care if you have blue eyes, black teeth, a mohawk or midget legs.
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Why do you have to make fun of me like that? Oh... not me, I'm bald with gorilla arms.
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And a bow doesn't care how tall you are. "I don't want a bow thats taller than me" is very stubborn attitude and has no logic reasoning behind it. The bow's length should match the desired draw length, bow's width, wood species etc.
good point.
that being said I worked on taking all the sap wood off the other half and after 2 days of cuttting and removing all the sap wood I discovered a bad worm hole connected to an old knot that ended up pushing the knot clean out the hole and formed a pefect hole right through the center of one of the limbs >:(. so I cut it to a 38 inch pice of wood and I'm gonna make my daughter the nices damn bow I ever made 8). maybe someday I can have a nice one too.
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Should have ask about the hole before you cut it off,holes in Osage usually don't cause much of a problem. :)
Pappy
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:-[ bummer. well the little ones gonna have a great bow anyway. it's actually thick enough I think I'll split it laterally and have 2 peices.. knowing my skills it wil be good to have a back up!
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Lots of good advice here