Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on June 21, 2014, 12:19:36 pm
-
We all have methods that work for us, feel free to share your method! No claims my method is right or better it's just how I do it.
First off I only use a long string when I am working on something I am not familiar with, extra heavy, extra short, extra reflexed, extra light, extra long etc. If you are a new bow builder all bows are unfamiliar to you.
1. After floor tillering, I put the bow on the tiller tree using a string that hangs down to about where brace height would be
2. I apply enough pressure to expose any areas that are not even I try to make the two limbs match each other.
3. If the bow looks even I pull all the way to full draw weight even though it might only move a few inches.
4. I continue to scrape, adjust and lower poundage testing at full draw weight with each pull until I reach a point 4" short of my target draw length at which time I brace the bow.
5. Thats it.
-
Thanks Badger,
This probably seems very basic to someone who has been at this a long time but for me and likely some other relatively new folks, the simple processes and order of things are not always clear.
Marco
-
I use a log string just long enough to be sure both limbs are bending evenly and together; as best as I can tell on a long string. At about 6" of tip movement, and everything is OK I low brace the bow to 3" to 4". If the string is tracking well I keep tillering until I can get a full brace. By now most of my tillering is weight reduction. (in my perfect world! ::) )
-
Pretty close to Pat B. Long string until I get decent tip movement, 4-5 inches, then very low brace 0-2 inches. Get the limbs even and increase the brace height 3-4 inches. Even it up never unstringing the bow. Increase to 5 or so inches. If it looks good, check the weight on the tree. Perfect world, the tiller is good and I need to shed a few lbs. 5-6-7 lbs maybe.
-
How hard are you guys pulling to get that 5" tip movement? Or how hard would you tell someone you were training to pull to get that 5" tip movement?
-
This is the kind of thread that can really help a new guy, thanks !
-
Pat, lately I have been working with some new guys, something I have never done much of in the past. I keep finding things I don't know how to explain that I do all the time just naturaly. So my new kick is trying to figure out ways I can try to explain something to someone else.
-
As I'm exercising the bow I only pull it a short way at first then gradually increase the pull as the tillering continues. I always emphasize to never pull beyond the intended draw weight.
-
I have a D97 string Flemish twisted over the whole length (I think around 72") with a loop at one end and tied off at the other so I can adjust a timber hitch for long string work, then low brace, then approximate length for the final short string with two loops. I always use a weight or scale to control how much weight I exert on the bow, and of course never pull farther than necessary to see flaws ;)
-
Steve, are you tillering on the long string for a specific shape? Tillering mostly fades and mid-limb, and leaving the tips a bit stiffer? The long string doesn't stress the limbs the same way if I understand correctly, so have you learned to compensate your long string tiller to make it look good when you brace it?
-
Steve, are you tillering on the long string for a specific shape? Tillering mostly fades and mid-limb, and leaving the tips a bit stiffer? The long string doesn't stress the limbs the same way if I understand correctly, so have you learned to compensate your long string tiller to make it look good when you brace it?
Yep, with 10 or 12# to go still plenty of room for adjustment in mid and outer limbs. I am mostly looking for even on the long string and just as you say leave the outers bit stiffer.
-
I use a log string just long enough to be sure both limbs are bending evenly and together; as best as I can tell on a long string. At about 6" of tip movement, and everything is OK I low brace the bow to 3" to 4". If the string is tracking well I keep tillering until I can get a full brace. By now most of my tillering is weight reduction. (in my perfect world! ::) )
Basically the same as what Pat does. I try not to spend much time on that long string maybe a couple pulls. Or I floor tiller to the point where I can low brace the bow.
-
Very good discussion guy's, I'm glued to this one. As Pat B. said, this is great for newbies! Thanks, Patrick
-
I know I am being a little stubborn and hardheaded about this topic but I have a reason. The issue of when to first brace a bow has been floating around for decades, even experienced bowyers deal with it to some degree or another. The reason is because all described methods allow for touchy, feely tecniques that are not totally clear, The bottom line is that it doesn't have to be because we have an easy method available to measure existing draw weight on a bow and all we have to do is stop the long string 4 or 5 inches before target draw length and brace the bow, simple as that. A short long string is plenty accurate enough to accomplish this.
-
I end up doing something different every time, far to inconsistent.
I will be copying your technique and reporting the results.
Great buz about the place at the minute, its good to see.
-
1. After floor tillering, I put the bow on the tiller tree using a string that hangs down to about where brace height would be
2. I apply enough pressure to expose any areas that are not even I try to make the two limbs match each other.
3. If the bow looks even I pull all the way to full draw weight even though it might only move a few inches.
4. I continue to scrape, adjust and lower poundage testing at full draw weight with each pull until I reach a point 4" short of my target draw length at which time I brace the bow.
5. Thats it.
That kind of sounds like what I do... except I have no idea what I'm doing or why, or what to look for while doing it or when to stop :P
After floor tiller, I put the long string on, which usually hangs down to brace height because I was trying to make the string the same length as the bow, but by the time I got the knot right and the B50 stretched it hangs down a bit :P
I pull on it and try to see what's wrong... I know SOMETHINGS wrong, but I stand for for awhile pulling on it trying to figure it out. Just choosing which limb is worse is a pretty big achievement.
If the bow looks like it won't explode, I pull to full draw weight, which for me is 35 - 50lb for my first attempts :D (Note the inconsistent target weight ;))
I continue to remove wood, sometimes in the wrong places, and poundage definitely lowers, I'll tell you that much. I decided to brace the last one at about 22 inches, so I was a bit late there.
That's it ;)
It is encouraging, I guess, to know that my approach will probably work once I actually know what I'm doing.
-
What you just described is exactly why I use very little long string and instead get mine braced early at just a few inches. With it low braced its easy to see the stronger limb. Find the areas on that limb that appear flat with the straight edge, mark them, and scrape, string on if I can. Exercise and look to see if it (A) brought the two limbs even, and (B) if the limb itself is bending more evenly. If not repeat. If so on both things, move to the other and do the same. When both are good increase the brace height and fine tune it.
-
I use the long string instead of floor tillering most times and only use it up to the point that the limbs are flexing enough to get it braced... 7-10" of tip movement. The long string gives a false reading on draw weight and doesn't bend the outer limbs as much as the proper length string will. If one is mindful of, and has adequate experience with it, it can be used to tiller farther successfully, but new guys can end up with whip-ended, under weight bows, so I have always taught them to do as I mentioned above.... just use it to get the thing braced..
Another thing we should clarify.... not all "long strings" are created equal, or have the same effect. A string the same length as the bow that lays against the handle while unstrung is going to tell a different story than one that is 12" or more longer than the bow.
-
I use the long string instead of floor tillering most times and only use it up to the point that the limbs are flexing enough to get it braced... 7-10" of tip movement. (how hard are you pulling to get this tip movement?)
The long string gives a false reading on draw weight and doesn't bend the outer limbs as much as the proper length string will.( Are you sure it gives a falso weight reading?)
If one is mindful of, and has adequate experience with it, it can be used to tiller farther successfully, but new guys can end up with whip-ended, under weight bows, so I have always taught them to do as I mentioned above.... just use it to get the thing braced.. ( how heavy is your bow when you brace it?)
Another thing we should clarify.... not all "long strings" are created equal, or have the same effect. A string the same length as the bow that lays against the handle while unstrung is going to tell a different story than one that is 12" or more longer than the bow.
( this is why a long string should be only an inch or two longer than the bow, so it does give accurate weight readings)
Even though your methos is about how the majority of us tiller a bow to brace it leaves a lot out when trying to expalin it to a new builder or experienced builder alike.
-
Steve, thank you for what you do fella! Your contributions to this community are great, from WRITING THE MASS PRINCIPAL to your recent threads, the way you think and your quest to quantify things has helped further bow building tremendously. I really think your on to something with this, it's so simple and it's been there the whole time I just never noticed it. I have a pretty good feel for what I build most of the time and can get a stave close to weight at first brace. I personally feel like that's better for a bow than bracing a 90# er for the first time when your target weight is 50#. This method is a great way to KNOW you are there. Big help for new designs a person is not used to or total nubes to bow building. Very cool.
Btw which do you think you have done more of? Posts to PA or bows built? I bet it's bows >:D
-
Will, thanks for the kind words. I still build close to 100 bows a year and I have slowed way down. I do almost everything by feel. When I have to pass something on to someone else or explain something I often catch myself stumbling. I make an effort to try and find clear and consice methods of explaing something. I would imagine Pappy and even yourself by now can relate to this.
I actually plan to give up bow making after this years flight shoot, I hate to but I found Ihave no ability to moderate myself so total abstinence is my only hope. If I come up with anything over the next few months that I feel is worthwhile I plan to pass it on, I might be a bit stubborn in the process.
-
Steve I hate to hear someone with your passion and ability giving up something they do so well. I can relate to that though. Do what you feel you need to, but I'll bet you pick it back up someday.
Please keep sharing your thoughts and ideas, regardless of anything. Don't worry about being stubborn. That's what it takes sometimes :)
-
Steve, I dont pull it over target weight at any time during the process.
-
Steve, I dont pull it over target weight at any time during the process.
I know what you mean, with just a very minor adjustment to your present tecique, using a sting equal to about brace height ( loose 4" to 8"") You will know what draw weight at what draw length as well. You will know almost exactly how much over target bow weight you are when you brace it, and most importantly is is much easier to explain to someone who has never done it. If you are pulling full draw weight anywhere from 3" to 6" short of your full draw you will be from 8" to 15# heavy when first braced. And you won't have drawn it any further than you were when you were looking for 8 to 10" tip movement and you will not risk bracing it too early or too late.
-
Within reason, meaning a couple of inches of tip movement while floor tillering, can you brace too early?
-
Within reason, meaning a couple of inches of tip movement while floor tillering, can you brace too early?
Of course you can, you have no measrement of what you are pulling. If you know the bow weight and design chances are you can do it just as well by feel, but you can't explain that to someone else.
-
I'm in agreement with you. I learned to do this by feel and I see the value in quantifying weight readings early on so that one can explain in real numbers what to do and when. No argument and I appreciate the work. My question is specific to only one point. Within reason, can you brace too early? Your answer above was, yes you can because you have no measurement of what your pulling. You lack that measurement when floor tillering as well. It is done by feel. If you are getting 3 or 4 inches of tip movement leaning into it and you then string the bow at 2 inches brace height, can that be too early? Steep recurves aside, a straight stave bow will be under no more strain than when bent at floor tiller. If I want to measure weight at this point I can, and my reading will be nearly spot on to the true weight at normal brace. My limbs will be bending truer than a much longer string and any asymmetry between the limbs is immediately visible. Lastly any compressed wood from the belly ends up on the floor. I'm not married to any one way of doing any of this. What I do today is different than what I used to do, and If I see a better way I will do that next time. Just asking for your take on this Steve as I value your opinion.
-
I doubt you could overstrain a bow at a low brace height unless you were way out which you would likley feel. I have seen quite a few bows over the years braced too soon and taken some set. I admit I do it by feel unless I am not famiilar or comfortable with what I am working on.
I think the methods might even be more useful to keep from comming lin light. I used it on that 60" 100# osage a couple of weeks ago and it was real simple knowing when to brace and no guesswork on making weight.
-
I usually floor tiller just until is has some bend and both limbs are about the same,then cut nocks and go to the long string,just long enough to reach,but as was said by the time the knot is tied it hangs a little off the handle. Then go to
my tiller stick,moving an inch at a time down,making adjustments as I move down and reducing weight,when it looks about right as far as tip movement,never
really measure that,I stretch a string from tip to tip and see what it will look like at brace,if all is even and looks good I will brace the bow,never really thought about weighing it at that point, I do tend to brace them heavy,so i may start to check them at that point, if they are to heavy I may reduce more weight keeping things even before bracing them.thanks Steve ;) :) I hardly ever come in under weight but sometimes have a lot of reducing to do after I get it on the tiller tree and could be over straining them at that point,never really gave it any thought.Thanks again Steve. They generally work out OK but always room for improvement as far as set goes. Good topic. By the way ,you plan on just quit building bows and teach or get away from it all together,hope you plan on staying involved in some way. :) :)
Pappy
-
Pappy, I want to start shooting more, at least a couple of hunting trips per year and more 3-d shoots. I figure if I just build when I go to events I can't get too overy involved. If I could find a place to set up shop off my small property I would probably stay at it. Since I retired I seem to treat building like a job almost, at the crack of dawn I am on it LOL.
-
I hear ya,I have slowed way down for sure, I shoot more,go to events/help some beginners and branched off into other things ,like knives,old tools and about anything to just take me away from bows for a while, now I work on them when I want to ,not like I have to. ;) :) :) Ya I have seen you at it,when you was at the Classic,before day light till way up in the night,steady at it the whole time ,not taking much time for eating or sleeping. :) :)
Pappy
-
I saw that post Steve. I watched you wrestle with stringing that monster. Tremendously heavy bow at proportions not much different than the average bow. (Great post by the way.) That is a perfect example of my point. String it early on with a low brace and you can eliminate some of the guess work without any ill effects. You will rarely miss weight as a bonus. Recurves are the obvious exception, and I long string those until I can get a string on at low brace, but you need a lot farther tip travel to get there.
-
Slimbob, I had that 100# osage on the shooting machine yeaterday, I got the tiller all fixed up on it and took some accurate readings with a winch and electronic scale. 104#@26". Anyway I wanted to see how fast it would shoot a 500 grain arrow and a 1,000 grain arrow. I put up a little guard for my face that partially blocked my view. The release mechanism I use is a compound bow release. I kept getting readings like 149 or 155, I thought the bow has to be faster than that and was getting frustrated before I reallized my release mechanism was letting go at about 17" LOL. Going to rebuild the machine this week and try again
-
Very interested in hearing the results. 155 with that short power stroke and a heavy arrow is pretty fast I think. Another 9 inches and 30-40 lbs. ???
-
That was the light arrow. Only looking for about 165 with the heavy arrow at full draw, maybe 220 with the 500 grain arrow hopefully. Will post the results.
-
Yeah I saw that. Still impressive. Very curious on the final stats. I have not run any of my bows thru a chrono in years. Just not something that think much about anymore. It is still interesting to me to see these kinds of tests and results, especially on a near prototype like this bow.
-
I prefer using a long string that is the same NTN length of the bow but I have used longer string. I think using the shorter string might be easier for a newbie since many of them tend to long string tiller the bow with the outer limbs a bit weak. Knowing how to check the weight with the long string will be pretty useful for a lot of them
-
I used Steve's scale trick last evening getting an Osage to brace,I still was using my tiller stick ,but as I moved down the stick getting closer to brace I would pull it using my hand held scale,worked nice,I will add that to how I get one ready to brace,it should help to keep me from braceing to early and way to heavy as I usually do. ??? Thanks Steve. :)
Pappy
-
Mark, shorter the string the better. I used it on the deflex bow and it worked fine also. A lot of new guys have trouble comming light, works well for that.
-
Ya I always use a tiller string just long enough to fit. Don't have as much trouble coming in light as I do probably braceing it when it is way heavy. This will help on that. :)
Pappy
-
Steve, got to report to you on this one Sir...The recent bow I posted had a "flat profile" and pulled 57#@26...Put a long string just long enough to slip over the tips and pulled with the scale and it registered 54#@26 ! I believe that you are on to something here with out a doubt...This should help many folks...I have to admit I have braced way to early/heavy in the past and this system will give me more wiggle room/time to adjust better before risking early/overly heavy brace...
Don
-
Thanks Don, I was hoping for some feedback good or bad, I have been using it for some time now with pretty good luck. I am not real fussy about string length but try to keep in hanging less than 8".
-
Found this post today. Would have been good to find it many moons ago.
Particularly for those new to tillering a bow-to-be, this would seem to be useful posting and deserving to be added to archive.
Ya'll agree?
-
In my early days, I broke bows because they were too heavy to be strung.
So I started long string tillering out to 10" of string movement (not tip movement) looking for good tiller and target weight or a little over. That brings it to brace height. I use a string about 1/4"-1/2" longer than the bow. Not too concerned about string length.
Anyway, that put the future target weight at about 10-15# over target weight. Plenty of tillering room and not too heavy. Just right. :)
Then, I string it at a short brace about 3" from string to back.
More on my site.
http://traditionalarchery101.com
Jawge
-
Thanks Badger. This is very helpful for me!
-
Great info! The hard part was learning how to floor tiller to get enough bend to even begin to use the long string! And be patient with the tools! Hopefully the lessons learned will carry through to the next bow! This should help all the newbies both gain confidence, and stay a bit humble! Steve, don't slow down too much! Hope to see you at MoJam,
Hawkdancer
-
Jawge, if you were to brace a bow using 10 inches of string movement starting with a short long string you would be at about 1/2 your draw weight or on a 50# bow about 50# too heavy. You cannot correlate draw weight to string movement or even limb tip movement. it can only be correlated with its position on the draw length. 10" string movement would put you at target weight at about 14" draw.
-
"10" string movement would put you at target weight at about 14" draw."
How did you come up with that?
Badger, obtaining draw weight at 10" of string movement puts me at around draw weight + 10#. Then I string it with the string. I should mention this is for a 26" draw. Values can be changed with a proportion if draw length is vastly different
A long time ago I took an unstrung finished bow and pulled it 10" with my on my rope and pulley and checked weight. I got the weight of the bow.
This method was just a guide for me to keep from trying to string too heavy a bow.
The reason I don't look at tip movement that in a finished bow my tips only move a few inches.
I should also mention that 10" of long string movement correlates to about brace height.
Jawge
-
Jawge, you might have done it a long time ago but I do it about 100 times a year and 1 can tell you with 100% certainty that 10" of string movement is no where near target weight. I have been using this method for a long time on every single bow I build so I am not guessing or theorizing it is just the way it works. String movement has no relation to draw weight at all. 90% of a bow weight gain when you draw it is because you loose leverage as you pull the string back. You really have to go by the inches on your tiller tree yard stick to see where you are.
-
Of course, I do it on my rope and pulley. Stretch it, measure down 10" and slowly bring the stave to draw weight and good movement and then string it.
I've been using this method successfully for 25+ years.
All I am doing is bringing the stave to a manageable weight (10# over target) before stringing.
Jawge
-
George
I have read your method many times and have scratched my head many times, until you qualified your technique with.......
"I should also mention that 10" of long string movement correlates to about brace height."
-
Sorry for the confusion, willie. Jawge
-
No apology needed George.
I have found that there are many ways to tie on a longstring and some materiel's slip a bit more than others. That's why I look at tip movement relative to draw weight.
-
Long string measurements have always confused me because the starting point changes depending on how long the string is. When people say 10" on the long string I was always confused because I didn't have a frame of reference to help me understand. Sometime back I drew a line across my backboard about 6" down from the shelf on my tree. Now whenever the tips of the bow cross that line I know it's at or about brace height and I can think about bracing it. So I use tip travel in a left handed sort of way.
-
Don
So how much weight do you pull to get to that "lefty" 6"brace height, before you brace the bow with a short string?
I reduced a bow to bring the tips back 6" at 1/2 the full draw design poundage, before bracing. It did not leave much wood to play with.
-
Draw weight which for me is 40#. Unless there is an obvious fault I pull to the full 40 every time it's on the tree. With an RD bow I can usually brace them as RD's are easier to brace. With a straight bow sometimes it's just too heavy and I have to use my bracing jig or more likely just wait a bit. I really haven't noticed a big difference whether I brace early or late as long as it's not too late. I was once working a flawless piece of yew on the long string and it was going so smoothly that I just lost track until I realised that I was at 27" and still on the long string. It turned out OK, just a little more elliptical than I wanted.