Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: SeanStuart on June 23, 2014, 10:46:09 pm
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Hello, this is Maple. My second try at a first bow. Can you gents take a look at this and give your opinions/suggestions.
I left a lot of wood on the handle. I will take a bit more off this weekend, but is there a negative to having too large of a handle - other than it's ugly?
It is pulled down about 4 inches in the pic and seems to be bending more on the left side than the right, other than that, I don't see anything. Please let me know if you do.
At this point I am thinking of lightly scraping from about half way out to the ends, on both sides (bit more on the right than left). Working it a bit then drawing it to 6 inches.
Thanks!
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Your fades need to be longer, or at least need to go past the edge of the riser. If the limb bends right up to and against the sharp angle you have there it's going to pop the riser off.
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Your transition from limb to handle is far to sharp an angle. The limb should feather into the handle at the fade. The handle appears long to me. If I'm right you have room to rasp it down to get that smooth transition. Can you get a pick closer up of your handle and fades. I would fix that first. Sharp angles like this are an open invitation for the gremlins to get in and cause havock.
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Is that a board with the handle glued on or a stave ? Like was said the fads need to tapper in at a lot less of a sharp angle,if that is a board and it is the same thickness full length you will probably have trouble keeping the handle on anyway. :)
Pappy
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It is a board with glued on handle. So I should reshape the handle more like the black line in this pic? Thanks.
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Better. As Pappy said, the handle staying on will be an issue. The bow is going to bend right up into the edge of the handle which will cause it to pop off. Let one of the board bow guys chime in on that.
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I agree SLIMBOB,the whole handle /fad area looks like trouble to me,if you cut the fad back as shown in the picture,I am afraid it will bend back into the cut out for the handle and you will get a pop up there on the back where you violated the longitudinal grain, and still worried the handle is going to pop off.I don't do boards so maybe some of them guys will chime in with some ideas on how to go forward. :) :)
Pappy
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I agree it looks like the handle will pop off. If you shortened the bow to maybe 62" and dropped the weight to maybe 35# it might stay on. I would cut the fade according to your black line but I wouldn't get my hopes up too high for the bow.
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Looks like the board proper is too thin to do the handle properly. The fade needs to extend into the board itself with the handle sitting on top of it.
If the handle pops off you can pin it with dowels and do a handle wrapwith some B50, etc.
I have always advised beginners, if they want to start with a board, to make a bend in the handle bow. The width is the same through out, no narrowed handle, taper to 1/2 inch nocks about mid limb.
You can change these directions to 1 3/8" wide for 45-50# ...potentially.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/boardbowbuildalong.html
Jawge
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Looks like the board proper is too thin to do the handle properly. The fade needs to extend into the board itself with the handle sitting on top of it.
Jawge
This seems to be my major mistake. I should have made the board thicker, glued the handle on, then cut the limbs to thickness.
Thanks for the link George.
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Just leave that board a full 3/4" thick next time and you'll be all set. Id suggest leaving the above bow as is and starting another. It will only lead to heart ache.
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Also from what I can tell u have some figured maple. Which the grain is gonna be a problem. Try a simple red oak board next. Straight grain.
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This seems to be my major mistake. I should have made the board thicker, glued the handle on, then cut the limbs to thickness.
Exactly how thick is the bow in the limbs? What's the thickness of the original board, minus the glued on handle, in the grip? You might still have enough thickness for a light weight bow.
Either way, I wouldn't leave this bow as is and start another one. You're already nearly done, and you might get lucky. Worst case scenario: the handle pops off violently, the bow breaks and you still have to start another. But perhaps the handle pops off slowly, so you can replace it with a longer handle, composed of several 1/8" lams instead of one thick block.
By the way, shorten that long string until it is nearly touching the handle. It'll give you a more realistic view at the tiller.
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Have you got TBB's? In the tillering chapter in volume 1, there are some really good pictures of how the width and thickness should taper around the fades.
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Removed
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Have you got TBB's? In the tillering chapter in volume 1, there are some really good pictures of how the width and thickness should taper around the fades.
I need to get a copy of that Crogacht. I have been looking at another book that is ok, but maybe a little too simple, "Making Traditional Bows". Which edition is best to start with - one, I assume?
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Have you got TBB's? In the tillering chapter in volume 1, there are some really good pictures of how the width and thickness should taper around the fades.
I need to get a copy of that Crogacht. I have been looking at another book that is ok, but maybe a little too simple, "Making Traditional Bows". Which edition is best to start with - one, I assume?
They're all good, but if you want to prioritise, I would get Volume 1, Volume 4, Volume 2, then Volume 3. I would get them all eventually though.
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I'm not a bord bow guy so I don't known if its too late....but I would try a backing of some sort....looks like a time bomb with the tiger stripe..... :o
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forgive me if i missed something but why don't you just take the glued on riser off with a heat gun or whatever and then use the 1/8" lam buildup method discussed here:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,47137.0.html
perfect example by eric krewson in post above:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/featheringfadesBBO_zps638d4aee.jpg
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I was sorta thinking that Vgo.
I used TB 3. I don't know if heat will take it off. I was thinking that I will just cut it off on the bandsaw. I saw that other thread and thought how nice it came up at the same time.
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I actually just asked the exact same question a week ago too and got a lot of advice so it seems like a pretty popular issue. I use TB3 and know that a heatgun will release it...just heat it up for a little while right at the glue line and you can pull/jar it right off.
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Got back to it today. I cut the handle off and did a laminate build-up - not perfect, but Looks nice.
It looks like it will only be about 35# draw. My observation is that it is pulling a bit more on one side, and maybe a bit too much at the fades. Do you think it is bending too much at the fades?
Pics are at 13 inches and 20 inches with paracord, so not really accurate.
Let fly!
Thanks
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I will make the tips smaller... Another question, can I put a string on this yet?
BTW. I bought TBB-1 but haven't had a chance to look too much yet. Impressive looking book though. Thanks.
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Slap a string on her! 8) Tiller is looking pretty good
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It's looking pretty good so far. Good fix on that handle.
You've actually already surpassed the point where you should have strung her. As soon as you get about 5" of tip deflection, you want to put it on a low brace. Switch to a proper string (not paracord) straight away and brace this bow to a full brace height. Monitor draw weight.
It's not bending too much in the fades. It's just right. The left midlimb appears to be bending a bit more than the right midlimb. Scrape the right miblimb (6" from handle fade to 10" from the tip) to match them. Also monitor set; the bow will take set at any place it is bending too much.
Those tip overlays are wayyy too huge. You need to remove about 75% of their mass.
Keep in mind that this wood is still a stick; it's not a bow yet. Resist the urge to shoot it prematurely. I can tell you've spend a lot of time on fitting and finishing that handle. It's nicely rounded and smooth now, but remember that would have been a waste of time IF this bow were to break. God forbid, but you can't rule that option out still. It's most time-efficient if you shape and smoothen a handle after the tiller is completed. That way you'll never waste time tidying up a broken board.
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One the tips are back about 6 or 7" GET IT BRACED, even if you only brace to say 5".
The pull on a braced string is is a different direction, the angles and leverage are totally different and the shape of the tiller will change (maybe not much, but it will.
If you really want to see what happens, mark where the tips have pulled down to on the back board. Brace it and pull the tips down to the same point, (taking care to watch the poundage and tiller so it doesn't go bang*) take a picture and see if they are the same. While you are at it, not the poundage at those two test points. They won't be the same...
Lookin' good so far :)
Del
*I've had a warbow pulled back to 100# on a long string many times, I braced it and pulled it back to... BANG... it never made the 100# :o
Long string and short string pounds are not the same thing.
That's why I said go by tip deflection rather than poundage.... if the tips come back 7", they should come back 7" again without going bang regardless of the string length..
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Thanks for the tips. Knowing what to look for, and seeing it seems to be the hardest part.
I backed it with two layers of raw linen canvas. It seemed like the prudent thing to do, but it sure is ugly.
The pic is at about 23 inches and I don't see any areas that need more work. Can you guys take a look and let me know if you see anything. Thanks.
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Looking at the pic, I guess the left is still not bending quite as much as the right? If I ever finish this thing, it is going to have about 12# draw!!
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Hard to tell completely in a pic on the tree at this stage but, outer on the right just past mid limb out. Maybe a few scrapes just past the fade same limb but that is debatable. Draw it by hand at this stage as it will look different than on the tree. Looking pretty darn good.
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Left outer 2/3 isn't bending much
Del
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I see that the left limb is a bit stiff, too. Better to have a 12# bow that's perfectly tillered than a poorly tillered 50# bow. even if it's so light that it's not shootable you still got to practice getting a bow perfectly tillered. Bow making isn't rocket surgery but there is a learning curve and you shouldn't feel bad about making a couple bows before you get the one you want, especially if you are nailing the tiller each time. Keep up the good work. 8)
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I scraped that left side a bit and I think they are bending about the same. Pic is at 24 inches. Time to step away for a bit. Thanks again for the help.
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So........what's the draw weight? That's a pretty important factor.
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I don't have a scale, but I hooked a 25# dumbell to it and it drew to about 23 inches. So pretty lightweight.
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In that case: leave the tiller as is. No point in perfecting the tiller and losing another three pounds. It's so light already that it is safe to shoot. There is a point where you can continue to work on a bow's tiller by trying to perfect it, while in reality you are just reducing weight and will end up with a kids bow.
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Ok, thanks, I appreciate your specific comments DS. Looking at the pic, what area needs work? I still think the left limb about 2/3 out is not bending as much as it should be. but it is bending just as far down as the right limb. That doesn't make sense to me.
I'm not going to mess with it much more. I really don't like the linen back. I need to find a nice stave or three.!
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Sean, you have a nice looking bow. Particularly since it's your first. Ya shoulda seen my first, and second, and third!
A background color painted on that linen followed by some colorful graphics will make it a looker!
If you're at 25# level ya got a fun lil shooter. So have fun with it while ya build the next one.
And one day ya may have opportunity to make the day for some 12-15 yr old.
Stay safe,
Michael
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... I still think the left limb about 2/3 out is not bending as much as it should be. but it is bending just as far down as the right limb. ...
Of course it makes sense! ::) It just means the bend is in the wrong place :o.
The total amount of bend may be fine but there is too much in the inner 1/3 and not enough in the outer 2/3.
There are also other nasty problems in tillering...
Imagine the left limb is completely rigid, it will still come down a bit as the bow will pivot on the handle right?
Now ask yourself what happens if you weaken the right limb.... The right limb will bulge up more and the left tip will come down :o
So the whole bow rocks on the support.
Now some people will say that's a good argument for clamping the bow on the tiller, so you can watch each limb in isolation.
Personally I like the bow to be free to move, because that's how it is in the hand.
It all goes to show that a simple stick and string is a lot more complex than we at first think.
Hands up everyone who has removed wood from the wrong limb due to this sort of confusion!
Me Sir me Sir! I have! :laugh:
Del