Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: BarredOwl on July 05, 2014, 03:12:13 pm
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Most of the experienced guys will probably be thinking "so what's the problem" but here I go showing my inexperience.
So, I had this osage log that I had cut and when I did the first split it had more twist to it than I had expected. The log has the best early to late growth ratio by far of anything I have to date. But I decided to let it lay there and worked on more promising looking stuff first. After a month and a half of walking around it I grabbed the chainsaw and got ready to cut it up for campfire wood. I looked at the growth rings again and decided I am new to this so I might as well split it out and try to learn for myself if the log really has too much twist. So I split off what I thought would be the best stave and proceeded to try to remove the sapwood. Right away I discovered that drier sapwood doesn't come off nearly as easy as week old sapwood. Maybe someone can confirm this. I think either completely wet or completely dry would work far better than somewhere in between sapwood. It was like what I would imagine trying to cut the tread off a tire with a drawknife would be like. Well anyways I got down to yellow wood on one end and was pretty much worn out so I tried several other techniques that we won't go into here and got the sapwood off. I viloated several growth rings in doing so and started to try to chase a ring on one end and found out I could hardly tell when I cut into the early growth. This piece is much different than any other osage I have worked on so far. It just doesnt have that crunchy feel when I cut into the early wood and is an ultra thin layer compared to any other osage I have worked so far. I can barley see the transition from early wood to late wood. I suppose I will just have to go extra slow and am wondering if maybe also I am somewhere between real wet/green wood and seasoned that is making it much more difficult to chase the ring? Or are thin early growth rings just going to make it more difficult to chase a ring regardless?
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I think your experience is pretty much the norm. Sapwood dry as a bone is fine, wet as a sponge is fine...anything in between is a pain between the sitting muscles.
As for chasing the ring, go ahead and seal it up tight on the back and let it sit another 6 months or so. The blisters will heal, the memory fades, and you might wanna try again. Have at it when you feel like another run, no sense trying to do fine work when your are frustrated.
Post pics as you go, some of us (myself included) can't read and like lookin at the pretty pretty pitchers!
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My opinion, not that thin, but a lot of early growth mixed in with the late wood. Not ideal if I was drawing up what I would like, but workable. The best stuff appears to be the earlier rings. I would try and split it in half and try for a belly split I could work along with the outer wood which I think is less desirable.
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Maybe that's part of it Slimbob. I noticed in my photos that there is quite a bit of color variation within what looks like should be late wood. I do know this wood is working way differently than anything I have touched so far. I think the time since it was cut is factoring in but I also think the wood has a little different structure that anything I have messed with. I can barely tell when my draw knife hits the early wood and the part that I can recognize as early wood is very thin. Color wise it is also very difficult to see compared to other staves I have worked. This piece also seems to tear out worse which may or may not be the stage of dryness/wetness it is at currently. the late rings just looked so much better than other wood I have so far. I am kind of dissapointed by how difficult it seems to be to work so far though. I did try a quasi belly split on the piece I am working to get rid of the sapwood. Didn't work so hot right now. I am thinking that may get a lot better when it dries.
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I get those grain tear outs when working osage that is not cured out. Fresh cut stuff doesn't matter because I am just going until I hit yeller wood and will chase rings later. But otherwise it just ruins a good growthring. May best serve you to let 'em cure out from here.
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Hmm, no such thing as early wood mixed with late wood, it just doesn't happen.
You have almost perfect rings to chase, get your stave in just the right light and the early wood will stand out like a neon sign.
What you have are the normal striations in your late wood which almost look like mini growth rings when you cut through them. They can fool you sometimes so you have to start in a ring and ignore them lest you think you are cutting through an actual growth ring.
Your first sapwood layer next to the heart wood may be part sapwood part hard wood but that is about the only place you will have any mixing.
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Post a picture of the amount of twist if you can. Twist is pretty easy to get out of osage staves.
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To say that early wood does not mix with late wood is inaccurate at best. Some late wood rings can have barely discernable lunar rings while others can have lunar rings full of early wood. I find that statement puzzling. TBB I. Chapter I, Cutting and Seasoning Wood. One of the first pics in the book shows a perfect example.
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Chasing the rings on 300+ osage staves tells me mixing doesn't exist. Early wood/late wood only, although the early wood thickness can be such as to make late wood hard to discern, it is there.
You can believe what you want but experience tells me different. Tons of inaccurate info in the TBB series. Leaving an island of extra growth ring wood around a pin on the bows back is the most glaring that comes to mind.
Slimbob, have you worked with a lot of osage? What did you find out about ring mixing from your actual experience with the stuff. How often did you encounter ring mixing?
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Where exactly was this wood grown, what state? it does have an interesting pattern that would suggest early wood mixing with late. Never have seen it myself but yours does appear this way.
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Having pealed a ton of osage staves, I bet I could put drawknife to that stave and take the early wood off clean as a whistle in short order. If I looked in my stash I bet I could find a similar end grain stave, color variations are normal in osage.
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I use TBB only as a reference, but a pretty good one in this instance. Perhaps on some level early and late wood don't mix, but from a practical standpoint they clearly do. I have not worked 300 staves, but I have worked my share. Early wood exists in greater or lesser degrees within every ring so far as my experience tells me. This stave not withstanding.
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I think the color variation of the lunar rings makes this stave confusing for some. I don't see "mixing" of the late and early. I have actually had several staves with rings like that.
Owl if you will let the stave dry some more you will find it will be a little easier work.
I am not of the "scientific" type what so ever. Exactly why does a tree make an early and late ring?
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I've never worked with osage (it doesn't grow much in Europe), but I've ring chased several other wood species numerous times. I prefer to ring chase a properly dried stave. Green wood tends to tear out more easily, and my rasp clogs up when I try to use it on fresh wood. Dry wood just ring chases easier for me. However, I do sometimes remove the sapwood of black locust prior to drying. In that case I don't strictly ring chase, but just try to stay within a ring or two. The final ring chasing will be done after the wood has dried.
Remember that good daylight really helps when finding the rings.
To say that early wood does not mix with late wood is inaccurate at best. Some late wood rings can have barely discernable lunar rings while others can have lunar rings full of early wood. I find that statement puzzling. TBB I. Chapter I, Cutting and Seasoning Wood. One of the first pics in the book shows a perfect example.
I use TBB only as a reference, but a pretty good one in this instance. Perhaps on some level early and late wood don't mix, but from a practical standpoint they clearly do. I have not worked 300 staves, but I have worked my share. Early wood exists in greater or lesser degrees within every ring so far as my experience tells me. This stave not withstanding.
Slimbob, you are mixing up your terminology. Earlywood is not the same as wood vessels. It is biologically accurate in saying that earlywood and latewood don't mix. Think of it this way: a tree lays down wood as it grows. If it grows in spring, it lays down earlywood. If it grows in summer(/autumn), it lays down latewood. How can a tree mix the wood that was grown in spring with that what was grown in summer? It can't.
Instead, what you are pointing out is that you find large wood vessels in the latewood as well, and not only in the earlywood. In the earlywood we do find most big wood vessels for water transport; that is why this earlywood is weaker than the latewood. But the latewood is not void of wood vessels. It just has fewer big vessels.
What you should have said is this:
Some late wood rings can have barely discernable lunar rings while others can have lunar rings full of large wood vessels.
Then you would be correct.
I don't have a scientific explanation for 'lunar rings'. I do see them as well (esp. in elm) and I agree that they are visible because of patterns of the wood vessels. I can imagine they may be in a high concentration of wood vessels, creating a small weakness in the latewood. Just don't call them earlywood.
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I presume that technically you are correct DarkSoul. That sounds like a reasonable explanation so far as my scientific knowledge takes me. I speak about these various things not typically from a scientific perspective, but from a bow making perspective. I contend that, all definitions aside, some Osage has a porouse crumbly "earlywood like" structure within the annual rings at higher levels as a percentage of the whole than others. I believe this to be true based on my experience. It is nothing more than my opinion that this stave may have that particular structure. I have used lots of it and won't turn it down as a result of this. I believe it works differently under a draw knife than rings with clearly defined late wood/earlywood rings and in a perfect world I would custom order staves without the high percentages of this crumbly stuff.
As a side note, it also seems reasonable to me that this crumbly stuff is in fact earlywood as it appears to be layed down monthly, within the annual rings in a manner not unlike the the true annual rings, just in much smaller intervals. Don't know if scientifically this holds water. But practically it does.
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I presume that technically you are correct DarkSoul. That sounds like a reasonable explanation so far as my scientific knowledge takes me. I speak about these various things not typically from a scientific perspective, but from a bow making perspective. I contend that, all definitions aside, some Osage has a porouse crumbly "earlywood like" structure within the annual rings at higher levels as a percentage of the whole than others. I believe this to be true based on my experience. It is nothing more than my opinion that this stave may have that particular structure. I have used lots of it and won't turn it down as a result of this. I believe it works differently under a draw knife than rings with clearly defined late wood/earlywood rings and in a perfect world I would custom order staves without the high percentages of this crumbly stuff.
As a side note, it also seems reasonable to me that this crumbly stuff is in fact earlywood as it appears to be layed down monthly, within the annual rings in a manner not unlike the the true annual rings, just in much smaller intervals. Don't know if scientifically this holds water. But practically it does.
Slimbob
I knew exactly what you were saying
and while many of the terms we use are misnomers any way, as long as we understand one another we can still communicate well so no big deal!
early wood , late wood, are two of those examples and anytime there is a wet season or more moisture available the density of the wood being grown will change so yes we get a difference of appearance and some mixing of what has been termed early growth, late growth.
And yes it is differant to work and usally it takes a larger volume of it to make the same poundage bow as a tree that does not have this growth from the extra wet seasons !
have fun
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I have seen a lot of black locust with prominent lunar rings. I have worked a ton of osage myself and don't recall seeing such prominent lunar rings. I am really curious what state they came from.
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I see distinct boundaries between the spring or early growth and summer or late growth. That would be an easy stave to chase a specific annual ring on. I do see color variation within the summer growth on some years but not rings within rings if that makes sense. Never heard of lunar rings from a dendrology perspective. Would someone explain, sounds kinda cool :)
Tracy
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Yeah, I agree Guy. I wonder if it is also a hereditary trait like ring thickness seems to be. Seems you can get different ring characteristics from neighboring trees?? Anyway, that's my take on the original question. Give me clearly defined rings and I can chase a ring almost by feel. Give me one with lots of crumbly light colored "earlywood like" matter (whatever it may actually be) and it becomes a bit more difficult. And I agree also that it will need to be a bit wider than the former. Not saying it isn't a good stave at all. It's Bodark!
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The picture is of the root end of the log for what it's worth. I was hoping everyone would say it will be much easier when it dries down. The early rings don't appear to be particularly thin looking at the end of the log. But, I am having a very hard time feeling the early wood with my drawknife compared to the 15 or so staves I have worked so far. Most have been green lately and I did chase the ring on a seasoned stave 10 years ago. I have had no trouble following a ring on any before this one. In fact I have found it to be quite fun till this one. Thanks for the input. Didn't mean to start a controversy. The log probably doesn't have THAT much twist to it. I have never attempted to straighten a stave so I don't know what's possible. I would guess it might twist 45 degrees in a 60 inch run. This tree grew in southeast Kansas.
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Clamp the handle in a vice and use a heat gun to untwist each limb.
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Just chase a ring. Go slow. Sometimes you cut through so start again. I remember with one stave I went up and down a time or 2.
See if this helps.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/osage.html
Sometimes the stave appears more twisted while still in the log. I don't worry about a prop twist until it approaches 30 degrees or so.
...and this.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/fixtwist.html
Jawge
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When it comes to chasing a difficult ring the mantra work slow finish faster seems to apply.
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Tree "ring thickness" is totally due to growth rate. A tree with crown dominance will have thicker rings while one adjacent but more "shaded" will have tight rings. While water or soils can influence growth rates or ring thickness, it's the amount or surface area of leaves that truly makes a difference (they are solar panels, that provide food for the tree through photosynthesis).
A drought or period of stress during the growing season can be seen within a growth ring, as for lunar rings it could be that with very rapidly growing wood an "early" type of ring could be deposited due to growth during full moon periods?
I like my early growth to be a little more defined, as in thicker. Working a stave outside in the sunlight it is certainly easier to see the difference in rings.
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Very good point............Joe, Wapiti
DBar
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A drought or period of stress during the growing season can be seen within a growth ring, as for lunar rings it could be that with very rapidly growing wood an "early" type of ring could be deposited due to growth during full moon periods?
Thanks Joe!
I've been curious about the term and idea and even felt like I missed something in my dendrology classes at Purdue so I did a little research on lunar rings. I did not find any information that was credible or useful for lunar rings with respect to annual growth rings in trees. The few publishings on the topic refer to lunar phases and growth in plants and more specifically best times to harvest timber in temperate zones. I still like the term, it sounds cool :D
Tracy
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There have been studies done and I can't cite them for you right now, that suggest exactly what you refer to. Water uptake is greater or lesser in plants based on moon phases. These same studies and there are many suggest that wood harvested at certain periods of the moons cycle will have a greater compression strength. They also suggest the same for the season in which the wood is cut, the growing season vs the dormant season. Interesting stuff, but I don't know if in fact it holds water. Lots of old "wives tales" the suggest the same findings.
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Since we're talking about chasing rings it brings to mind a question I've had about how much of a late ring can be cut into without being "violated"? Let's say that a particular late growth ring is 1/4" thick. In a perfect world you would remove 100 % of the early ring above it and stop leaving a 1/4" layer of late wood across the back. My question is, as a percentage, how deep into that 1/4" ring can I remove without "violating" it? Is it ok as long as I don't break through to another early ring? I am sure getting it as close to perfect is best but at what point should a bowyer drop down to another ring?
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As in all things there are a lot of variables
draw weight
area of violation
they generally add up to amount of stress in a the area of the violation
And often times when the rest of the job of evening out the stress is done well you may be just fine with actually going clear thru it but all that being said stay as safe as you can till you get a good feel for things under your belt
I have found it best to leave the early growth ring on and shellacked till the bow is complete and ready for sanding then just a little scraping and sanding and your finished !
Hopefully I raised a few eyebrows and someone tries to prove me wrong but I doubt they will get it acomplished!
Don't stress so much its just wood !
Have fun
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Barred owl, You can reduce a 1/4" ring to 1/32" and still not violate the grain. It has been my experience that as long as you don't break through to the next layer of early wood you are good to go.
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I have looked and looked for an answer to that question and have never found anything that explained that. Thanks for all the help guys. I just have too much time on my hands right now waiting for wood to season.