Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Sidewinder on July 06, 2014, 08:04:55 pm
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I have been making bows now for about 8 yrs. They have gotten progressively better in a lot of ways. They balance well and have very good cast. People that see and shoot them seem to like them. I know I am happy with their performance. None are sluggish by any means. My biggest issue is I can not seem to make a bow with no set. I am wondering if its how I approach tiller. I see guys on here all the time and their stuff lays dead flat when unstrung. How do you guys do it is my question?
I wonder if I need to get the outer limbs bending more before I get it to brace and start pulling it on the tree. What is some of your input? Danny
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Danny, I induce reflex on a caul...Some of it usually stays...
Don
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Do a search (on the forum) for George Tsoukalas, and read the little blurb at the bottom of one of his posts. It will help put things in perspective.
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I made a caul as well, and try to heat in 4" of reflex.
2-3" ends up staying, and you lose a couple of those inches in tillering.
Unless your stave has natural reflex, it's pretty hard to end up with no string follow if your stave is straight.
Build a caul, there's some info on how on here somewhere
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Danny, I have the same problem. At first I attributed the cause to unseasoned wood but that was not the problem. I have a 28 1/2" draw and because of the length staves I've worked with my belief is that I'm inducing more stress than the wood can handle per my design.
I generally add 2" of reflex on my caul and usually lose that to set/ string follow.
I think my only option is to go longer/wider to compensate but I'll sacrifice a little string follow rather than carry around a 70" bow in the woods.
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It's probably that junky Kansas Hedge ;) Danny I have watched you make several bows. If I could say there is something specific you need to do differently I would tell you and I think you know that. There is something that I think could use a different approach. You could try balancing your tiller a little earlier than what you do. You may be stressing the wood too much before the tiller balances out. That is just an observation from what I have watched you do. Not everyone is completely honest about the set in their own bows.
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Danny , I think that a proper floor tiller is the key!Imho ,people depend to much on tillering trees and don't tiller enough by how the brace looks.tillering boards are much easier than knarly staves but the same rules apply .No matter what there's always gonna be set ,it's just some people hide it better than others. >:D
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String follow is when the bow looks like it is strung to a greater or lesser degree even if it is not.
Danny, it is impossible to make a wooden bow without set. If the bowyer induces 3 inches of reflex and when the bow is done 1 inch remains. The bow has 1 inch of set.
Thus, it is possible to make a bow without string follow by inducing some ( 2-3 inches or so) reflex.
Jawge
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I think most bows take some set. The best we can do is try to minimise it. If you monitor your wood closer durring the tillering process you will be able to react to very small amounts of set before they become evident. I usually get my mid limb area working pretty good and then if I show any set at all I start looking for someplace I can get some more wood bending. 2" of set on a reflexed bow is pretty typical I would guess, thats why most of the guys start with reflex. If you feeel you are getting too much and your tillering procedure is sound then you may want to look at your demensions. A good excersize is to make a bow as heavy as you can make it with no set, you may find your 50# target weight comes out to 40. I like to keep my set at about 1" but don't always achieve that.
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I've shot and hunted with the bow you sent me. I have no complaints. It shoots just fine. Like everyone else said, if you aren't using a caul to reflex the bow before or during tillering you might give that a try. Look at your bows and see where they take the most set. Make a caul that puts more reflex in that area.
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Good advice above,I usuall like about 3 inches of added reflex and hope to end up with an inch or so reflex,that would be 2 inches of set. bushboy ,not sure anyone is trying to hide it,just compensate for it. ;) :) it happens. I do think some of it is the wood we use,even in the same type of wood I will find some that just won't give up hardly any reflex and then another that it seems all you do to try and stop it, don't help much. Moisture is a big issue but some wood just stand flat much easier than others,wished I could figure out why. ??? :-\ ;) :)
Pappy
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I agree with you Pappy wood is just like an untrained athelete, it aint all created equal for sure.
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i stopped worrying about set...wish it didnt happen..but...i built a bow recently that made me not care...had it at the classic....it aas no slower or faster than other selfbows to my eye...set happens...lol..need a t-shirt with that on it!! "SET HAPPENS"...just not 4" of it :laugh:
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If you are not getting a little set you are not trying hard enough.
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I always trace the profile of the bow i'm working on before bending it. Then once tillering starts i'm always checking it against it's original profile to see exactly where any set i've induced is. Then just remember that saying in the Bowyers Bible - no set in the inner limbs, a little mid limb and the rest out along the rest of the limb. (or something like that!)
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If you are not getting a little set you are not trying hard enough.
+1
If it has absolutely no set the the wood isn't being stressed.
I I made a 76" ELB with a 20# pull at 28" it would probably have no set... it would perform much worse that a 70" ELB 20# with an inch of set.
Everyone has set, but they often don't say how the stave started out!
Even the 'no set' method relies on you seeing it's just beginning to stop recovering completely E.G It's just starting to take set.
I was chatting to an Austrian bowyer yesterday, who said "Why are you all obsessed with set?" (You can do the accent yourself ;) )
Del
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This is just the kind of input I needed. I appreciate the value of this forum and the encouragement we all give one another. I would like to make a couple of points and speak to the advise given.
I only use well seasoned wood 2yrs-5yrs old
I realize there is no such thing as a no set bow, however bows with enough reflex in them do not have any string follow. Its how to define string follow that may elude me hear and can be clarified.
I have not effectivley used the caul I have to induce enough reflex at the right time in the process to achieve the deadflat or slightly reflexed profile I desire. I also am not sure how to tiller a bow with 3" of starting relfex as most of the ones I start out with have little or no reflex, in fact some have a bit of deflex in the handle due to the natural tendancy of the stave.
I think JonW's statment about getting more even distribution of bend early on before I string it has some merit and I will pay close attention to that.
Robs statement about floor tiller is a good one as well and I know Jon feels that way too as we have discussed his method.
As to Dels comment from the Austrina bowyer about what is our obsession with set, I agree its probabley not a real important factor other than how we like the unbraced profile to look. I am not talking about massive set, maybe 1- 1 1/2" or so, so it does'nt effect performance much. I just know when I look at some of the bows unbraced and they are retaining relex or are deadflat, I being overly critical of my work think to myself, " self, thats what your trying to acheive and its not happening"
As to length/ width/ drawlengths I have seen my buddy Jimmy make shorter bows at the same or greater poundages with narrower profiles than mine and have his stuff lay dead flat or a little reflexed. He does induce reflex and his tiller profile is different than mine so that may be unfair comparisons but I know its possible.
Question? When tillering a bow with reflex, I have heard that they can be somewhat deceptive in seeming heavier in draw weight than what they really are and that one needs to ge the outer limbs moving more than the inner early in the process, is this correct?
I will wait for your responses and thanks again for the input. Danny
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The wood is a huge factor in amount of set !
beyond what never pulling on it more than the desired poundage , I work the mid limbs and outer midlimb area first thenwork my way down into the fades or handle, then lightenup the tips
the desired poundage will dictate to you how much set you get and it will vary depending on the wood.
Osage generaly can be done with little to no set up to about 50lbs the farther you go past 50 the more set it will take
You can start with about 3 in of reflex and not be to concerned with it deceiving you after that sometimes it gets a little tricky
have fun
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Danny, on a reflexed bow you can floor tiller until they are bending equally and evenly and then switch to a long string about the same length as your bow. If it pulls 50# at 20" on the long string it will read about the same at 20" if it were braced. I brace mine when I start reading about 50#@24" on the long string. I just did one this morning with 4 1/2" reflex, it finished with 3 7/8" reflex.
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I didn't read through all of this, hopefully this isn't all redundant. Get your tiller sooner. Ive found the quicker I get my tiller, the better the bow and less set I take on. The longer I finaggle and stretch on limbs the worse the bow gets. A killer floor tiller is key mas well. Don't even think about a string until you can look down each limb on the floor and see a nice arc. Once you train your eye to tiller that way you don't even need a tree.
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I totally agree Chris. An AGRESSIVE floor tiller is paramount. I rarely used the long string at all - too much messing around. Bob
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Just out of interest - how are you guys measuring your set? Back of the bow to the floor and measuring to the belly side of the tips, or bow against the wall back facing out, and measuring wall to belly? You get pretty big differences using different methods.
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Just out of interest - how are you guys measuring your set? Back of the bow to the floor and measuring to the belly side of the tips, or bow against the wall back facing out, and measuring wall to belly? You get pretty big differences using different methods.
I lay it back on the form that I used to straiten and induce reflex and see how much it has changed from when it was taken off the form !
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I measure with the back of the bow flat against my bench belly side out, to the belly side of the handle,I do this at the beginning so I know what I am starting with,then through out the process. I also eliminate the flipped tips if I have done that by slidding the bow on top of my bench where the flip started on each limb.
That's close enough for me. :) I flip the tips on most of mine so you won't get much of a reading if you measure from the tip to the floor,that stays pretty constant if they don't pull out and mine usually don't. :) Also by a lot of looking as you tiller it out,you can see where it is happening,I like the tracing idea Mike does,never tried it but seems that would work very good also. :) :)
Pappy
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I totally agree Chris. An AGRESSIVE floor tiller is paramount. I rarely used the long string at all - too much messing around. Bob
"Agressive"... So shouting and cussing at the bow helps? >:D
That's where I've been going wrong... I normally just shout and cuss after they explode ;)
Del
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Sorry Del - just trying to make a point ;). Seems like a lot of Folk spend way to much time trying to get apiece of wood to bend a couple of inches. Be aggressive, make sure Ya got no hinges or flat spots - and get that thing bending already O:). Bob
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If you are only getting 1-1.5 in. of set, if you are starting from a straight stave, you are doing outstanding work.
Congratulations and keep up the good work. :)
Jawge
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Jawge says my work is outstanding...!!! awesome...lol
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Well, I went back and remeasured three bows and they range from 1-1/2 to 2" from the back of the bow at the tip to the top of the table, so I guess its not as bad as I thought. None of them are even past the top of the handle. I guess maybe I'm just getting a bit obsessed with having a bow that lays flat. Thanks for the words of encouragement.
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That's because bows that lay flat or hold a bit of reflex are just plain sexy to look at for some. Sounds like you just need to add 2-3" of starting reflex and its yours.
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so what is a good reflex profile on a caul to accomplish this? To ask it another way, where do I want the reflex to begin? Danny
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Danny that will elicit a million answers. My opinion? On a typical bow from 62-68" long I add no more than 1/2" of reflex the first half of working limb, then drop it right off about 2-3" from mid limb out. If all goes well you will lose very little. If you look at yours and other bows you will notice most set happens mid limb and out, looks gull wing like. Adding excessive early reflex only adds set to those poor mid limbs, right where the width narrows coincidently. The parallel section of limbs doesn't need any help.
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Thats a keen observation . Ill take it to heart. If I have the bow tillered put is it too late. When is best time to induce reflex.
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some guys do it at floor tiller, some guys do it when the bow is bending more too.
heck, some do it the day the tree is cut.
i like doing it when the limbs are bending 6-8 inches
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Induce your reflex when the stave is roughly floor tillered. As Peral said reflex should be added like a reverse elliptical tiller. eg increasing towards the tips. Remember that thinner wood can bend further than thick wood.
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Thanks for the input. The one I am working on right now was almost done tillering 24"( target is 28"). I put it on the caul last night and heat treated it and put in some reflex. Its unbraced profile right now about is reflexed about 1 1/2" at the tips which I have not flipped yet but intend to mildly. I also have not bent it since putting it under the heatgun. I may leave it alone for a couple days as a thunderstorm came thru last night at 4am and I still had the bow clamped out on the picnic table. It got rained on for about 10min. It had the oil still on it so it did'nt get rained on naked. I wipped off the oil and water and put it in front of a fan till I woke up a couple hrs later. Seems dry but I will wait acouple days anyhow. I will post my results in a few days maybe even post the pics when its finished. Its a pretty little thing.
I'm shooting for 48@28". Its 62" t2t 1-3/8" at fades. Pyramids to 3/4" at 12" from tips and tapers to 1/2" at 6" and then finishes at 1/4"shoulders of the tips. Danny
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Danny you know you can't post stats and not post pics. I know it will be a shooter.
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Looking forward to seeing the outcome. :) :)
Pappy