Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: docmann on July 19, 2014, 08:55:16 pm
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I has mistakenly posted this in the "Arrows" section. I'll attempt to remove it from there, but I
ran onto a beautifully (naturally) reflexed Osage that lends itself to about 50-51" in total length. I've fashioned a horse bow with working handle and now on the home stretch with final tillering.
My dilemma is the draw length. I have a 28-29" draw length. I have made only a few short bows, but it seems I've heard that the draw length should never exceed 1/2 of bow's total length, which in this case would be about 25". This bow has all kinds of power and is holding its shape nicely through tillering. If like to make this a hunting bow and take it to 28". Any comments or ideas? Would like to hear from anybody, especially anyone with experience with short bows.
Thanks!!!!
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I made a ~52" black locust working handle shorty that drew to twenty eight. Osage seems be be okay with a little more draw per inch of wood, so I'd go for it it I were you ;D
(http://i.imgur.com/dMj7wQz.jpg)
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If you want the bow to last tiller out to 25" and learn to shoot it at that draw. With some practice you can switch between draw lengths and do pretty well with accuracy.
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I made a ~52" black locust working handle shorty that drew to twenty eight. Osage seems be be okay with a little more draw per inch of wood, so I'd go for it it I were you ;D
+1 and
You can back it for additional drawlength, esp. with sinew
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It's your bow break the rules however you like!
sinew may be the best way to keep it around a bit longer but, Osage and a perfect tiller job, you will most likely get all the hunting shots out of it that you will need anyway, just don't practice with it a hundred shots before hand or you may not be so happy with yourself
have fun
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I think if you want the additional draw length and have it around longer I would put rawhide on the back. Not as hard as sinew and not as good but is WAY better than nothing I think. I have seen a guy on YouTube (boarriorbows) build a 48" bow for his 29" draw with rawhide on it. It even had a static riser and was a Molly with half the limbs not moving. Not saying it's the wisest choice, as I have never tried it before, but it is definitely possible.
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Decided to set my draw length at 25" and tillered at 52#. Has a surprisingly smooth cast. Decorated it with a Yuma pattern. I haven't produced many working-handle bows, but, on the whole, I am satisfied with this one. Looking forward to the extra room I should have with this bow, especially in my ground blind.
I appreciate all of the comments and recommendations.
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IMO In that FD shot the tiller looks very good and the bend doesn't look excessive.
I have limited experience with Osage, but from what I have I'd say it would take those last 3" no problem. If you were really unsure you could heat maybe 1" of extra deflex into it at the grip just to ease it down a tad.
Has it taken any appreciable set yet? If not then I'd say you are good to go a bit further.
The draw<= length/2 is just a guide, there are no "rules" 'cos the wood doesn't read the forums ;)
If it was me I wouldn't be able to stop myself taking it those last few inches :laugh:.
Del
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The Osage has held tough so far. Almost no follow . The stave did have a little natural reflex that was worked out early in the tillering process. I tend to agree that with no give so far, it would seem unlikely that it would wimp out now with the extra pull. I've also been particularly careful to coax it slowly through the tillering with plenty of exercising over several days just to be safe. The first four arrows grouped nicely, but I just don't like the idea of modifying my draw, or shortening some of the arrows so as not to over draw. Thanks for the shot of testosterone, might have to go ahead and see if she'll allow me those extra inches. I'll keep you informed.
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What Buckeye Guy said. ;) :) Good decision on the 25 inch draw if you want a bow that will last.Beautiful finish work. :)
Pappy
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I thought that I wouldn't like the short draw but was wrong. A little practice and it will become second nature unless you're an Olympic target shooter in which case you probably wouldn't be on this site :D
Patience.
Tracy
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I suppose if the Cheyenne, Comanche, and Sioux could learn to shot shorter bows (many if which are barely 40") while shooting horseback in the midst of a thousand angry Bison, I can learn to like it from the comfort of my back yard.
Just curious, who among you would opt to cover the grip with something vs. leaving it bare? I never shoot off a shelf, but was thinking about a tight wind of leather or serving string over the grip. However, and because of covering a great deal of the bow's belly with paint, I kind of like what little bare Osage there is showing there.
By the way, I've posted the scale drawing of the bow I attempted to replicate. This bow is indeed a Yuma bow that presently exists in the American Museum of Natural History in New York. Notice that that bow is a willow bow and of an extra foot in length. The other working handle bows I've attempted are either Cheyenne or Comanche, which would be native to my region of Western Oklahoma.
I've been pouring over the comments on the other subjects of this web site. You guys seem to know bows and construction. Glad to have bumped into this forum, and I do appreciate the comments and direction.
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I thought that I wouldn't like the short draw but was wrong. A little practice and it will become second nature unless you're an Olympic target shooter in which case you probably wouldn't be on this site :D
Patience.
Tracy
Hey now! JOAD was good to me. If a paper killer like me can transition to instinctive, It can't be too far of a jump to short draw.
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You did a nice job on this shorty. Can we see a full draw pic?
"...a bow fully drawn is 9/10th broken..."
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You did a nice job on this shorty. Can we see a full draw pic?
"...a bow fully drawn is 9/10th broken..."
+1
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You made the right choice in limiting the draw length to 25" and learning to shoot a short bow, the bow is beautiful and should last you a long time, but a word of warning if you start shooting short bows you will become addicted and not want to shoot long bows. >:D
Grady
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I can manage that. Where do I send the pieces?
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the 25 inch draw is the way to go on such a nice piece of wood,, once a bow gets to 25 its has a pretty good power stroke as well and can have great cast,,,, with a little adjustment ,, you can shoot very accurately at hunting range,,,
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As requested, the short (51") bow drawn to 25". While I just planed down 6 new arrows to accommodate the shorter draw length, the arrows in the photo are a full 30". It's a challenge to wrap your mind around the idea that this bow shoots hard (52#) at the 25" draw length.
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Nice bend Doc... 8) Like the art work also...
Don
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Thanks gang. I appreciate the nice comments. In a couple of months we'll see how she performs in the "real world".
Doc
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This subject comes up on a regular basis and I'm glad... there's always something new to learn about short bows and pushing the wood to its limits.
The formula for long draws on short bows is: the wider and thinner the limbs, the more it will bend without taking set, and the longer the draw.
You can push the wood as long as the set is 2" or less. You may also need to break a few bows and tear through several pieces of osage to find the "one" that will bend like crazy. The only obstacle after that is string angle and stack. It's very possible to get a 29" draw from a 51" piece of wood (without backing) but it will be painful and/or scary when you see the full draw pic and the limbs might look stupid wide. :o That type of bow is not for the faint of heart. ;D
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Yep. Always looking for that optimal number. Interestingly, Steve Gardner, in the TBB, swears by the "mass principle". This is based on the premise that ultimately, the mass of the bow determines the optimal performance. Reportedly, the man has made thousands of bows and this unifying principle seems to hold for any type of wood. I didn't weigh my wood before finishing, but based on the mass principle, my bow should weigh about 7 oz. (using the formula of +/- 1/2 oz for every 2" of bow length. A. 58" bow with. 26" DL should weigh 10.5 oz. subtract 3.5 oz (my bow is 7" shorter than the 58" listed) and that brings me to the 7 oz. Since my DL is 25", it should probably even be at 6.5 oz.
I'm not sure just how much paint and tongue oil I have applied, but my bow weighs in just shy of 11 oz. If his principle is accurate, I've left on too much Osage.
He stated that if one follows this principle, a reliable 170 fps can be expected every time.
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very cool info
chuck
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That is a great looking tiller doc! Ive been on a short bow kick for the last year or so:) They are fun to shoot once you get used to the short draw.
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Nice job there!!! :)
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Thanks guys!
Almost didn't pursue it because I just couldn't get my heart into a bendy handle with a short pull. I'm still amazed at how well this thing shoots at 18 yards, even with someone like me pulling the string. Like some of you indicated, this could be addicting. I'll probably just have to suffer the addiction for a while! One thing's for sure, this one will be in the blind with me October 1st. No need for. a 66" bow when this shorty is casting them every bit as well as I can aim them.
Now, to grip or not to grip ? Any suggestions, or should I leave it bare wood?
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good job, very nice bow and good tiller
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Looks like your bow weighs almost twice and much as it needs to according to Steve's mass principle. It could be a combination of excess moisture and wide tips. I wouldn't remove any thickness from the tips as this would cause the tips to bend... and you don't want to mess with the tiller. The tiller looks great as it is.
Native American designs usually have overbuilt limbs with wide tips. This makes them more durable but sacrifices some speed.
If Steve chimes in, he can give you a better idea where the excess mass might be coming from. It's definitely not the paint or finish.
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I think my natural inclination is to overbuild with the idea that "I can always take a bit more off". Some of my earlier bows are almost laughable as I look at the limb tips.
This bow pulls. 70+ pounds but would probably make a better pry bar because of the limb mass.
No doubt, on many occasions, I've left a great deal of limb speed "on the table". Looking back, and probably like many beginners, I think I began cutting down the limbs from a stiff cumbersome pattern, and stopped when the bow had what seemed like an adequate tiller and cast--never thinking that fair could be made good, and good could be made better. (Analogous to my 13 year- old son's lawn mowing-just a little more scrutiny, time, and effort would make a marginal job an excellent one.)
Interesting, I've never run into anyone who has applied Mr. Gardner's principle. (No doubt because of my limited experience and contacts.) Admittedly, with this short bow, I weighed in "after the fact". I think I will, at least once, build a bow and apply his principle from the get go. He has apparently worked with a lot of different materials, and I think his "mass principle", the culmination of his years of experience, observation, and application, deserves a shot. It's seems a little different mindset, building a bow with a certain mass as your terminal objective. However, in the process of "making weight" I suppose the scraping and shaping is performed in the same manner as with other bows. Only with Gardner's principle, the ideal mass coaxes you on or tells you when to slam on the brakes.
It would be interesting to know how many have used Gardner's formula from the ground up.
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I use Steve's chart and formulas all the time. Won't build a bow without them these days. ;D
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That's good enough for me. Thanks for your input!
Doc