Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: simson on September 26, 2014, 03:08:56 pm
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Do you guys know about to dye with ammonia?
In Germany you can buy 'Räuchereiche', translated word by word it means: smoked oak.
It has nothing to do with real smoke, but is a chemical reaction of ammonia with the tan acids in the wood. The more acid in the wood, the better reaction. I wondered to use it in bowery.
In the last month I did a lot of experiments with different woods. For example fresh osage can be aged over night so that it looks like 10 years old. Every woods behaves a bit different, but I had great results with elm, ash, dogwood (gets a very nice warm grey).
I noticed three important things.
First this dye is not on the wood, it is in the wood at least 3-4 mm.
Second the color is stable, the acid gets the color by a chemical reaction.
Third the structure of he wood changes, it gets a super smooth surface and the elasticity increases. I will do more tests from time to time. Is anybody here with experience in that item?
Let me show you here an example of a 'smoked' ash bow.
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020933_zpsb8574ba6.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020934_zpsbf6b0402.jpg)
Here you see the difference between normal and smoked. Before the smoking process I taped the limbs diagonally. In the detail pic above the border is a bit fuzzy, I like that how it came out. The ash developed very nice colors, especially at the growth rings. No pigments added.
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020910_zps07c76271.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020958_zps733d1e47.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020915_zps7337a76f.jpg)
It is a HLD with a deep valley, it is 63“ long. All added parts, overlay, wedge inlay, arrow pass is buffalo horn. The tips are mildly flipped. Drawweight is 72#/28
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1030119_zps6c4d88c2.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020953_zps9fb8fbeb.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020948_zpsc78b0d3f.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020949_zpse796a8d7.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020950_zpsde11934b.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020916_zps301635e0.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020952_zpsd74abceb.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020922_zps021bcbd2.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020951_zpscdd65063.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020959_zps93623461.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020928_zpsd7006430.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020945_zps2474df1b.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020947_zps1922d70c.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020930_zps6839a662.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020931_zps2d4a46db.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020932_zps6eed989b.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020954_zpsb0d91b07.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020955_zps89bbf2b5.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1409%20ash%20smoked%20HLD/P1020963_zps5efda314.jpg)
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Very cool bow again Simon. I actually did know about aging wood with ammonia. I know someone who was at one time a reputable stave dealer that was asked to leave an event because of doing that. Your bows are really amazing to me in every way.
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I really like the color it produces and those stripes. Does it weaken the wood any?
Are those tips horn? Do they go solid through the whole bow?
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That is a thing of beauty!
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I want some Simon. That looks great, and Im always looking for a way to darken osage.
Jon is the ammonia just wiped on and off? Have you done it?
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I really like the color it produces and those stripes. Does it weaken the wood any?
Are those tips horn? Do they go solid through the whole bow?
I have not seen a weakness caused by the process, but more elasticity. the wood can bend farther.
And yes, the wedge goes through the entire limb tip. It is buffalo horn. I have posted a how to somewhere here.
I want some Simon. That looks great, and Im always looking for a way to darken osage.
Jon is the ammonia just wiped on and off? Have you done it?
Chris, the ammonia is not wiped on. You need a closed pipe or a long plastic tube, just put the stave / Bow in together with a cup of ammonia (10% - 20% solution). Let the damp react over night or longer when you want deeper colors. After taking out the bow don't bend it, it is damp - you have to wait a few days til the moisture is gone.
I have forgot to say:
This is a so called positive dye. That means all colors are getting darker.
Opposite is f. e. anilin dye based on water or alcohol. This is a negative dye. The bright wood gets darker than the dark wood (origin). Here you are applying pigments on the surface.
Hope I could explain that with my crude English. I'm sure you will find info via googlesearch.
Looking forward to your attempts !
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Simson, that's insane! It's so graceful! I want to see it shoot so bad! Wow, thanks for sharing
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Simon,
For hundreds of years, chemical stains have been used in the gun buildinto industry.
I have been building American longrifles for about 20 years, and nothing brings out the curl or figure in curly Maple like Aqua Fortis. The original formula was nitric acid with iron dissolved in it to saturation. Unfortunately, this must be neutralized to prevent further corrosion of any iron or brass furniture on the gun.
Today, I use Ferric Nitrate, which is the compound you get from the Aqua Fortis, without the acid.
Like the Aqua Fortis, you flood the wood with the Ferric Nitrate, let it dry, then blush it with heat to turn a beautiful amber brown, with the curl a nice dark brown.
As you stated, it works with the tannins in the wood to get the desired colors and the stain is "in" the wood, not on it.
It's a beautiful thing!
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Holy smokes that is one cool bow!
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Yes Simon I'm a little familiar with the 'fuming' method for wood coloration. Gus Stickley and other craftsmen furniture makers used this method around the turn of the last century and before on their fine furniture. It was also employed for millwork to trim homes at that time. From what I have read tents were built to put the wood, mostly white oak, in with pans of ammonia placed inside to fume the wood. Kind of a hazardous situation to your health so you had to be quite careful. My home is a 1910 arts & crafts bungalow so the wife and I are always on the look out for period furnishing and read quite a bit on all subjects relating to the craftsmen style of architecture.
I've thought about trying that method on bows before but never have so I'm glad you posted it. The bow looks great, hollow wood design with the ammonia finish, doesn't get much better than that my friend.
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Looks real nice Simon. I have also heard of putting a reagent on woods that have a high sugar content. I believe the ratio is 1 part hydrochloric acid 1 part nitric acid 10 parts water. I think you put it on the wood after its sanded and heat it with a heat gun until the acids start to carmalize the sugars. A guy I know used it on osage and he said the effects were stunning, says it was as if you could look down into the wood.
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:o don't stop this is some good stuff... :)
DBar
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Thanks for bringing up Stickley and the Arts and Crafts Movement, Badly Bent. Some of the finest furniture designs came from that bunch of clever poeple. Think of the Morris chair and the Mission Oak furniture. There was difficulty with building furniture from this "ammonia fumed oak", not all of it took the same amount of color. The craftsmen would have to pick thru racks of wood to find similar grain and color, then saw and resaw, assemble, and oil finish.
The benefit of that kind of persnickety wood picking was that they looked every stick over from every angle. They saw the grain, the character, and saved those boards for the parts of the furniture that showed the grain to the best effect. I remember my great-grandfather showing me the tiger striped grain across the back and along the arms of his Morris chair, and how the wood on the sides and base were just straight plain grain wood. I was so young, I actually thought they sawed up real tigers to make wood for furniture.
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Man that's one slick lookin bow Simon. I love that pic of the whole belly. Great look with the dye job. Can you use just house hold ammonia?
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Very interesting guys. Cool bow Simon, your HLD bows are sweet.
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Very interesting post. That ash grain is beautiful!
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That's an amazing bow! Every time I log in I look to see if you've posted any new ones. I'm in awe of your craftsmanship. Beautiful!
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Simon,
For hundreds of years, chemical stains have been used in the gun buildinto industry.
I have been building American longrifles for about 20 years, and nothing brings out the curl or figure in curly Maple like Aqua Fortis. The original formula was nitric acid with iron dissolved in it to saturation. Unfortunately, this must be neutralized to prevent further corrosion of any iron or brass furniture on the gun.
Today, I use Ferric Nitrate, which is the compound you get from the Aqua Fortis, without the acid.
Like the Aqua Fortis, you flood the wood with the Ferric Nitrate, let it dry, then blush it with heat to turn a beautiful amber brown, with the curl a nice dark brown.
As you stated, it works with the tannins in the wood to get the desired colors and the stain is "in" the wood, not on it.
It's a beautiful thing!
Thanks for that info, Dane!
I've heard about Aqua fortis, I will try this also. I know there are hundreds of recipes out there from the old craftsman.
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Yes Simon I'm a little familiar with the 'fuming' method for wood coloration. Gus Stickley and other craftsmen furniture makers used this method around the turn of the last century and before on their fine furniture. It was also employed for millwork to trim homes at that time. From what I have read tents were built to put the wood, mostly white oak, in with pans of ammonia placed inside to fume the wood. Kind of a hazardous situation to your health so you had to be quite careful. My home is a 1910 arts & crafts bungalow so the wife and I are always on the look out for period furnishing and read quite a bit on all subjects relating to the craftsmen style of architecture.
I've thought about trying that method on bows before but never have so I'm glad you posted it. The bow looks great, hollow wood design with the ammonia finish, doesn't get much better than that my friend.
Thanks Greg!
The right terminus is obviously "fuming", I didn't know the right word. And yes, it is hazardous - don't breathe the damps.
I know a bit the Arts & Crafts movement and like the architecture and furniture, too. There are so many good things from the elder to discover again.
Looks real nice Simon. I have also heard of putting a reagent on woods that have a high sugar content. I believe the ratio is 1 part hydrochloric acid 1 part nitric acid 10 parts water. I think you put it on the wood after its sanded and heat it with a heat gun until the acids start to carmalize the sugars. A guy I know used it on osage and he said the effects were stunning, says it was as if you could look down into the wood.
Cody, I've also heard about that transparency effect. But I've never seen an example. That would be looking very cool.
Thanks for bringing up Stickley and the Arts and Crafts Movement, Badly Bent. Some of the finest furniture designs came from that bunch of clever poeple. Think of the Morris chair and the Mission Oak furniture. There was difficulty with building furniture from this "ammonia fumed oak", not all of it took the same amount of color. The craftsmen would have to pick thru racks of wood to find similar grain and color, then saw and resaw, assemble, and oil finish.
The benefit of that kind of persnickety wood picking was that they looked every stick over from every angle. They saw the grain, the character, and saved those boards for the parts of the furniture that showed the grain to the best effect. I remember my great-grandfather showing me the tiger striped grain across the back and along the arms of his Morris chair, and how the wood on the sides and base were just straight plain grain wood. I was so young, I actually thought they sawed up real tigers to make wood for furniture.
Haha, good story. Now let's saw up tigers and make some bows out them! ;)
Man that's one slick lookin bow Simon. I love that pic of the whole belly. Great look with the dye job. Can you use just house hold ammonia?
Yes Matt. I've bought mine regular in the drug store. I've got solutions of 10% and 20%. Just be careful, that stuff is acidly!
Thanks everyone for comments and / or info!
I have editet my post. Made some mistakes with oak - ash. This bow is definetely ASH!!!
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Astonishing work simson.
Every time i read a post from you I expect great things and you allways surprise me with even higher results.
As far as ammonia. Do you think it's possible to use a rag directly on the wood surface instead of the vapour method and obtain similar effect?
Wood will absorb more humidity probably.
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Yeah, another great bow... Dude you gotta slow down, give some of us a chance to catch up ;)
Love the shape of the arrow plate (ok... and the nocks... ::) )
You have a great eye for elegant detail and the skill to pull it off.
Now I'd better get back to the garage and work on the next bow....
Del
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Sorry to ask so many questions Simon, when you say solutions of 10%and 20% what are you mixing the ammonia with? Thanks again I'm just excited to try this.
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Your work absolutely blows me away! Bow after bow is a work of art!
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Matt, Just like alcohol, ammonia comes in different strengths. You can get Isopropyl in different percentages. I am going to try this on my next oak board.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_fuming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_fuming)
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Sorry to ask so many questions Simon, when you say solutions of 10%and 20% what are you mixing the ammonia with? Thanks again I'm just excited to try this.
Exactly what JoJo said, and thanks for the link to wikipedia
Guys, if anyone tries this please share your experience. This is very interesting and please watch the difference in the wood structure!
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This process has got me thinking. I work in the public sector, I am a licensed pesticide applicator in Utah as well as many other certifications. At the city I work we use Urea (46-0-0) as a fertilizer in the fall on the park strips and playing fields. If urea is applied and not watered enough in the first 12 hours you have an issue with Ammonia escaping from the fertilizer (Urea is made from urine). So my thought was, if you were to use a bit of granular urea, in a closed steaming setup (minus heat), would you get the desired results? The article I linked states that this type of wood staining was discovered from wood stored in stables, and the urine from horses released enough ammonia to do the trick.
Also keep in mind that a lot of expensive face creams women use are made with urea!
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Beautiful bow as always, Simon. Really like the effect that ammonia has on the grain.
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Have added fulldraw pic and measured drawweight at 72#/28".
Thank you for your comments, guys. Always a pleasure when you like my work.
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Fantastic bow mr. Simson. Very cool.
:-)
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When you say that elasticity increases, I guess that would help the back but not make much difference to the belly in terms of compression/tension resistance? I just ask as the consensus is that ash is great in tension and only reasonable in compression, so would this improve the compression resistance?
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Baking soda is another household chemical that can be used to get an "aged" look. Dilute with water and paint on using foam brush. The baking soda reacts with tannins in the wood. So the effect depends on wood species . . . maple, not so much . . . cherry, definitely. Also, tannin levels can vary considerably within a species. So ya may want to test before committing yourself. I was committed years ago.
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How does baking soda change the appearance?
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How does baking soda change the appearance?
Like the ammonia treatment, baking soda reacts with tannins in the wood. Wood becomes a darker/aged shade.
Proportion of water & baking soda can be varied to achieve differing effects. Tablespoon of bs ( :o ) to a cup of water is a starting point.
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How does baking soda change the appearance?
Like the ammonia treatment, baking soda reacts with tannins in the wood. Wood becomes a darker/aged shade.
Proportion of water & baking soda can be varied to achieve differing effects. Tablespoon of bs ( :o ) to a cup of water is a starting point.
Just a tablespoon of b.s.? Sure doesn't take a lot of b.s. to do the job, why is there so much of it being created???
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Yes Simon I'm a little familiar with the 'fuming' method for wood coloration. Gus Stickley and other craftsmen furniture makers used this method around the turn of the last century and before on their fine furniture. It was also employed for millwork to trim homes at that time. From what I have read tents were built to put the wood, mostly white oak, in with pans of ammonia placed inside to fume the wood. Kind of a hazardous situation to your health so you had to be quite careful. My home is a 1910 arts & crafts bungalow so the wife and I are always on the look out for period furnishing and read quite a bit on all subjects relating to the craftsmen style of architecture.
I've thought about trying that method on bows before but never have so I'm glad you posted it. The bow looks great, hollow wood design with the ammonia finish, doesn't get much better than that my friend.
I just bought a home built in 1910 myself, I wonder if the oak in it has had the same done to it? It looks like it has a surface varnish on it as well. Do you have some pictures of some of the wood work in your house?
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Yes ammonia fuming white oak is the traditional stain for quarter sawn craftsman style furniture. It treats the Rays in quarter sawn with the most respect that you can give it!
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Well I obviously didn't read all the posts! Hahahaha
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I haven't been on this forum long but that is a real work of art, amazing job! You have my vote for Bow the Month!!
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Fellows, I am new to this site, but not to primitive archery, I have been using bleach to darken my new osage bows for years, I read about in a article in Primitive Archery magazine years ago, just wipe it on and let it set for a short while, from my experience it doesn't do anything for the elasticty of the wood.
Johnny
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That is a beautiful bow. The grain of ash in the hollow limb design plus the darkening is incredible!
I have achieved similar darkening effects with a "stain" from vinegar and steel wool. Picked up this simple recipe from aaron. Can't say I noticed an increase in elasticity, but is sure looks good on ash, osage and also fir arrow shafts.
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Love that bow. Never seen knocks done in that style inlay.
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Hi Simon,
I gotta hand it to you, you're out there stretching the envelope with innovation.
Cheers, Deerslayer.
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Beautiful work simson! Always like seeing your contributions.
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Thanks a lot for your comments, interesting things here!
Fellows, I am new to this site, but not to primitive archery, I have been using bleach to darken my new osage bows for years, I read about in a article in Primitive Archery magazine years ago, just wipe it on and let it set for a short while, from my experience it doesn't do anything for the elasticty of the wood.
Johnny
Never worked with bleach, but I'm interested. I give it a try on one of the next ...
That is a beautiful bow. The grain of ash in the hollow limb design plus the darkening is incredible!
I have achieved similar darkening effects with a "stain" from vinegar and steel wool. Picked up this simple recipe from aaron. Can't say I noticed an increase in elasticity, but is sure looks good on ash, osage and also fir arrow shafts.
Carson, as mentioned before, there is a difference in a positive and a negative dye / stain. A dye, once dryed out is only pigments imbedded in wood cells, you cannot expect any difference inthe wood structure like elasticity. But using ammonia is another thing, this works in the cells, not on the cells. Just try out on a piece of ash. saw it in two pieces, let one piece in the fuming pipe /tube over night, polish both the same way the next day. You will note a big difference, the fumed piece has a really super smooth surface.
Love that bow. Never seen knocks done in that style inlay.
Did that style on numerous bows meanwhile to stiffen out the outer limb with saving mass. Here is my very first, but I like very much (my first post here on PA, too): http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,34732.0.html
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Simson, terrific finish on that bow. An inspiration.
When I was researching the bending of wood in preparation for doing recurves, I came across an old-school article (not related to bowmaking) that said wood could be softened so as to bend it either through heat (in steam or boiling water) or through soaking in a chemical solution. As an example, it gave ammonia as a suitable medium.
So Simson's observations about fuming the wood overnight making the wood more elastic are quite interesting.
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A ture masters work! Hld is. The bomb!
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I have thought about this a fair bit. Problem is I have to actually finish a bow first ;0). An oil finish after the fuming will really bring out the colour. I went to school for furniture building and one thing we discussed was that some companies will soak wood in ammonia to bend it. We didnt actually do it though, as they weren't set up for it and could be dangerous, but the instructer told us that you could soak a 1" x 1" by say 6' long stick, tie it like a pretzel, it would not lift a splinter, but once dried, it would stay that way. He may have been exaggerating... point is the look is beautiful. Woods with higher tannin cintent will go darker. Oak, cherry, walnut... I didnt think ash would get that dark but that bow is beautiful!
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Found this:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Anhydrous+ammonia+helps+bend+wood.-a020133971
"Chemical Methods
Chemicals such as urea, urea-adehyde and ammonia have been used to soften the matrix that holds wood fibers together. In tests conducted at the Forest Products Laboratory, urea-treated wood did not bend as easily and developed more stress failures than steamed wood.
Back in 1964, scientists at the New York State College of Forestry at Syracuse discovered that ammonia would soften the matrix bonds in wood, with both anhydrous ammonia and compressed gaseous ammonia used in varying degrees of success. The scientists found that ammonia breaks down the hydrogen bonds within cell walls and within the lignin matrix. This allows molecular movement when subjected to tensile or compressive forces. Once the ammonia evaporates from the wood, new bonds are made creating a permanent set; in simple terms, this can be considered similar to the process of adding a permanent wave to hair. "
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Simpson , I'm not sure what to comment on first. The fuming of the wood, the geometry If he bow, or the photograph. All are great and the knowledge shared on this sight is unreal.
Great looking bow!
The interaction of the people around the world makes primitive archer a great publication and a great source of knowledge!!!
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This is real interesting, I worked in the anhydrous ammonia refrigeration field for many years, anhydrous, means without water or concentrated ammonia, add water and you get bleach. Be real careful working with anhydrous ammonia as it displaces oxygen and can cause burns on your skin. They are actually freezer burns, like on meat left frozen too long. If you want the aged look get bleach and wipe it on. It works immediately and repeated applications don't do much.
Johnny
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My mate does a lot of wood turning and one night I was round at his workshop....'here' he says 'smell this'....so I took a grand old big sniff .....the next few seconds felt like my brain was melting....then I came around again :o After he had finished laughing he said he had only meant for me to have a small smell not a full lungfull!
Lesson - DON'T SMELL a big bottle of ammonia :o :o :o