Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Lucasade on October 01, 2014, 05:37:55 pm
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I've just been given permission to harvest what seems to be a rather lovely bit of laburnum. I've read it can be tricky to season and wondered if anybody has any advice before I cut it and inadvertantly mess it up? It's about 4-5" diameter and runs straight for at least seven feet. In particular is it better to wait to cut it until the leaves have dropped, and do I need to halve it immediately or season it in the round?
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I've never used laburnum but in general you can cut bow wood anytime. For whitewoods most folks prefer to cut during the growing season so the bark will peel off exposing the back. From now until next spring the bark will be stuck well to the wood. The bark can be removed but care must be taken to not damage the back.
Logs I have harvested I've split in half immediately and sealed the ends. In a month or so I'd split out individual staves. If you do remove the bark be sure to seal the back.
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Remember Laburnum is very toxic.
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Hey, I cut some smaller diam laburnum and left them whole like I do yew. Even with 3 dips on each end they started to check so I split them.
Sounds like you have a nice log, if you think there's more than one bow in it, dont chance it. I'd band saw it.
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I don't have access to a bandsaw (and I'm working medieval-style) so if I need to halve it it will be with a drawknife and just go for the one bow - better to get one good stave than two bits of firewood!
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Yes I too would split it straight away. Make some simple wooden wedges and it will split easily. Labernum can also get quite thick sapwood so I would also be prepared to chase a ring. I tend to just leave one sapwood ring and it's texture may surprise you! It's more like rubber than wood!
As for making thebow from it treat it like it's yew. Narrow and with a rounded belly. You can really strain this wood...it's top notch bow wood....ever bit as good as yew. It also makes the most beautiful bows :)
I've just split a small straight seasoned log and recurved the ends...just got to get them spliced now :) Once dry it loses it's toxicity.
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Thanks everyone - I'll leave it on the tree until I've got time to deal with it straight after cutting then.
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Hi. I've done som laburnum bows. Use gloves when you harvest and split it. Seal the ends. Laburnum is very toxic when its greenwood but most of the toxic disappear when you dry the staves. The sapwood are more toxic than the heartwood.
If you are lucky you will get a lot of setback in the staves and that gives you a good result when you finish the bow. Laburnum bows keep the reflex and turns out to be very effective. It's the same quality as yew and it is pretty good looking. The sun makes the bow darker, like osage. Work outside and use mask. Good luck.
:D
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Split it. Less likely to crack
Del
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I had to buy some wedges for work so I took the opportunity of being where the tree is for probably the last time this year to chop the log:
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/imagejpg3_zps1c8dfca8.jpg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/imagejpg4_zps0fec8e1f.jpg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/imagejpg2_zpsc0398cbc.jpg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/imagejpg1_zps146fbaff.jpg)
Yes that's a large piece of highly toxic wood in my kitchen... ::)
Anyway, it's a bit knottier than I thought when I looked at it in the tree - I hope it's not beyond use? There's 8" either end which is obviously unusable that I guess will help protect the ends while it seasons and can then be chopped off, and 76" in the middle.
How important is it to split straight away - can it wait a week? Also has anyone got good tips for accurate splitting? I'm getting better but still only done firewood up to now.
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It is generally better to wait a week or two before splitting. Do seal the ends ASAP though.
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Can't really tell the diameter of that log. If it was mine I dont think
id chance splitting it. Find where the best bow lies in it and use a hatchet.
a bandsaw may get you 2 staves.
Wait a week or 2 before halve it, seal the ends well and yes leave them long. All my laburnum has checked on the ends
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Sorry, should have said. Just over 4" tapering to just over 3 1/2".
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Toxic? I dunno. ??? Flutes, recorders, and bagpipes were made from it back in the day.
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From Wikipedia
"All parts of the plant are poisonous, and can be lethal if consumed in excess. Symptoms of laburnum poisoning may include intense sleepiness, vomiting, convulsive movements, coma, slight frothing at the mouth and unequally dilated pupils. In some cases, diarrhea is very severe, and at times the convulsions are markedly tetanic. The main toxin in the plant is cytisine, a nicotinic receptor agonist"
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From a website called "the Poion Garden"
"How Poisonous, How Harmful?
Contains cytisine, a quinolizidine alkaloid whose effects are often described as being very similar to nicotine. It seems, however, that it is not nearly as strong a poison as nicotine.
All parts of the tree are poisonous: roots, bark, wood, leaves, flower-buds, petals, and seedpods. The harmful part of the plant is the seedpods which are mistaken by children for peapods, usually after they have been shown how to eat fresh raw peas straight from the plant in the vegetable garden.
In many cases of ingestion of a small number of seeds there are no symptoms. Where symptoms do occur these are usually nausea and vomiting. Higher doses can produce intense sleepiness, convulsive possibly tetanic movements, coma, slight frothing at the mouth and unequally dilated pupils.
In 'Accidental poisoning deaths in British children 1958-77'* published by the British Medical Journal, Neil C Fraser writes 'Laburnum is frequently cited as the most toxic and commonly fatal poisonous plant in both children and adults, but there appears to be no report this century of a childhood poisoning death'.
In a 1979 contribution to ‘The Lancet’ entitled ‘Have you Eaten Laburnum?’, R M Forrester says that there are around 3,000 hospital admissions due to Laburnum poisoning each year. This figure is arrived at by extrapolating from the number of cases reported in the north-west of England. Yet, there are no reported cases of deaths in children due to laburnum. Forrester says ‘It is suggested that laburnum is not as dangerous as has been thought and that many of these admissions are unnecessary’.
There was a case, in 1970, where a paranoid schizophrenic, resident in a mental hospital, was believed to have committed suicide by eating a very large quantity of the fruits and this may have led to the belief that the tree was extremely dangerous. The case provided quite a puzzle for investigators since the man had had a brief conversation with a nurse only about ten minutes before death and had not reported or manifested any of the gastro-intestinal symptoms normally expected with severe laburnum poisoning.
*The article also says that in the period covered there were three deaths of children under 10 attributed to plants. Even this low number is overstated since one death was due to fungi and in one of the other two 'the role of ingestion in the child's demise is doubtful'. Thus there may have been only one confirmed plant death, with 'hemlock' being the plant responsible, in twenty years. The report deals with a total of 598 deaths and makes it clear that medication, household cleaning materials and cosmetics pose a much higher risk than poison plants."
The article does go on to say elsewhere that breathing dust from sawing, or the fuzz of the leaves can be extrememly irritating to the lungs.
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Well, if cytisine is so poisonous, I don't think it would be used to get people to quit smoking:
The 2011 efficacy study
Researchers from University College in London and the Cancer Centre in Warsaw, Poland have conducted a single-centre, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial on 740 smokers of more than 10 cigarettes per day (cpd). Participants were randomly assigned to receive cytisine for 25 days (six 1.5 mg tablets per day for 3 days, then 5 tablets for 9 days, 4 tablets for 4 days, 3 tablets for 4 days, and 2 tablets during the last 5 days) or matching placebo for 25 days. Twelve months after end of treatment, the abstinence rate was 8.4% in the cytisine group, and 2.4% in the placebo group. The relative smoking cessation rate between the two groups (RR=3.4; 95% confidence interval 1.7 – 7.1) was superior to what has been shown with NRT (RR=1.6) or varenicline (RR=2.3) against placebo. The main adverse events were related to nausea and stomach upset.
The authors of this study concluded that cytisine is effective as a stop smoking medication. It remains to be seen if longer treatment duration could produce better abstinence rate (NRT and varenicline are usually used for 8-12 weeks) as well as combining behavioural treatment and cytisine.
---http://www.treatobacco.net/en/page_485.php
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Awesome bow wood indeed;-).
I havent had problems with checking, but we have very high humidity were I live. I dont think that stave looks bad at all....some knots, but that is almost impossible to avoid with Laburnum. Many of those knots might even disapear when you reach the heart wood, and even if they dont this wood can handle alot:-). In my experience it dries fast
I have handled all my laburnum without protection, and havent had any adverse symptoms, but better safe than sorry I guess.
Cheers
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I know of a horse it killed ;)
Spliting it isn't something that needs rushing straight on with BUT it will check if left as a log. It's very humid here too and I had a piece check to the center. Spliting simply reduces the stress that gets stored up in a big piece as it dries and shrinks. Less thickness less internal stress.
Holten101 has nailed it ;)
Labernum might be my favourite bow wood. You can make anything from it but DO NOT make a wide and thin flatbow with it eg. a whitewood bow. Go narrow and thick. In fact narrower and thicker than looks right ;) Trust me on this one.
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Who is planning on consuming it in excess. ;) ;D ;D Lots of stuff are poison if you eat it. ;) Don't know nothing about the wood but looks like a good looking stick that just might have a bow hid in it somewhere. :)
Pappy
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If you can't decide to split or saw... maybe just decide there is only one bow there and chop away the 'bad' side. That will take some stress out of it and give the checks somewhere to go (E.G the chopped out side may open up a tad, but should only split in as far as the centre).
I think you are pushing it to get two bows out of there anyway.
Made my first ever Yew English Longbow that way... I was too scared to risk splitting this precious log that it had taken me about 5 years to find!
Del
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Thank you all for the advice. I'm only intending to get one bow out of it as the deflexed side looks very unpromising.
The main thing I think with the toxicity is there was still some sawdust on the log and I have a three year old - but the kitchen has since been swept so we should be okay!
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I'd like to know what type of tree produces knots that diminish towards the center of the tree?
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PatM- I think maybe he meant a knot on the belly side may disappear when you get past the centre.
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Not sure that makes sense.
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The sap/heartwood contrast on that log is awesome! :D
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I thought branches grow from the centre of the tree and out?
Ive seen lots of knots vanish from the belly when its rasped past the pith
I apologize if im missing something
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Yes, if the branch breaks off and grows over for several years.
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Pat, a knot cna do either. It may be from a branch that died, fell of and grew over, like you mentioned,
OR, it might be that younger branch started later in the tree's life, creating a largish knot on the surface that get's smaller and smaller the deeper you go into the tree. Cutting off a small branch leaves a knot.
I think that's what he meant.
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So I've been slowly working this down:
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image_zpstikxiokd.jpeg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image_zpssv1oiroh.jpeg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image_zpswytqye0r.jpeg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image_zpsqkuvmgan.jpeg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image_zpsttby6f20.jpeg)
To my eye it's looking like a nice bit of wood - it's currently about 75" long and 3" wide. I'm going to reduce the sapwood to 2 or 3 rings. There's some twist at one end which I'll heat out and a lot of the knots have disappeared or won't be an issue.
The big issue I am seeing is the extreme reflex that has resulted from not strapping it down to dry, and I'm not convinced my skills are up to tillering it as it is. Would putting some deflex in at the handle or any other design tricks help me out here?
I'm intending to make this into a bow for my long-suffering wife so it will be in the 35-40# range and I really want it to set off the wood to best advantage, so opinions on potential alternative designs to a 30" draw ELB would be welcome.
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Where have you been this two years! :D
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Lurking and occasional bowyering - having three jobs doesn't leave much time for hobbies >:(
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Looks doable! Where exactly does one get Laburnum? I'm guessing Europe. I see laburnum bows pop up now and again and think it is a lovely looking, highly usable wood. It's on my top ten to try bow woods list and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I can eventually run into some.
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Narrow and thick!!! You can make the overall length shorter than 'normal' too. Labernum is highly elastic ,great in compression and tension....what more could you ask of a wood?!? As I said before though do not make a flatbow.....poor cast and handshocky. Thicker is quicker :)
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Looks doable! Where exactly does one get Laburnum? I'm guessing Europe. I see laburnum bows pop up now and again and think it is a lovely looking, highly usable wood. It's on my top ten to try bow woods list and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I can eventually run into some.
It seems to grow all over, though it's native to southern Europe which I guess is why the Gauls are said to haved used it for their bows rather than yew. The best time to find it is in late spring when the flowers come out, otherwise it's difficult to spot amongst other trees.
Narrow and thick!!! You can make the overall length shorter than 'normal' too. Labernum is highly elastic ,great in compression and tension....what more could you ask of a wood?!? As I said before though do not make a flatbow.....poor cast and handshocky. Thicker is quicker :)
I think a flatbow would be a waste of this stave! And you were right about the sapwood being like butter, chasing a ring for the first time ever is proving to be much more straightforward than the yew I'm working on, which my drawknife doesn't seem to like at all.
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How much sapwood needs to be reduced? Laburnum is btw, good wood choice listed in EWBS wood list for warbows. But I don't agree it grows all over, this is small bush type of plant and can only be found in mountains of Southern Europe.
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How much sapwood needs to be reduced? Laburnum is btw, good wood choice listed in EWBS wood list for warbows. But I don't agree it grows all over, this is small bush type of plant and can only be found in mountains of Southern Europe.
I don't live in the mountains of Southern Europe ???
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Nor I, where did you get it?
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In our village in Warwickshire, UK - less than a mile from my house.
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Interesting, look at paragraph on wikipedia: "They are native to the mountains of southern Europe from France to the Balkans."
Anyways its a decoration plant so it may be seen outside this areas described.
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One variety that I'm familiar with, a hybrid, is grown as a landscape tree called a Goldenchain Tree, Laburnum x watereri. It is a hybrid of
L. alpinum and L. anagyroides. I've never used it as a bow but I have seen some pretty nice bows made from it.
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That's almost certainly what this is - it's very difficult to find the species for sale, at least in the UK.
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You can find small plants very cheaply here in Croatia, but who has patience to wait for them 20 years haha
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Yeah, I heard the UK has a hybrid species there and I was assuming you lived in mainland Europe or the UK. I am pretty sure there is next to zero in America. Could be wrong, but I wouldn't even know where to start looking.
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There is lots of laburnum growing in the Pacific Northwest. Looking out my front window I can see 4, and none were planted by people.
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So, can I convince you to cut some for me Wizard Goat ;D? I've got some dwarf bamboo arrow shafts and loads of nephrite jade to trade. If I can ship feathers I've got some sweet native bird feathers that are great for fletchings here in Taiwan. I've always wanted to try the stuff. That and lilac, but both are hard to come by.
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Limbit I'll be be cutting some in the winter, I've had bad luck with checking.
Sorry to jack your thread Lucasade
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I'm always looking out for it but I've only seen it in other people's gardens here in South Wales - and that's just a stone's throw from Warwickshire :(
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No worries jacking the thread - it went off topic a long time ago!
I find laburnum to be basically invisible in the countryside for 10 months of the year, then when it comes out in flower you see it everywhere. The trick then is to find the good stuff and mark where it is before the flowers go.