Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Tommytinker on October 09, 2014, 07:12:39 pm
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Ever since I read the traditional bowyers bibles and saw an example of a Japanese 'Riman kyu' or 'kago hankyu', I have been desperate to attempted one of these little bows and its counterpart arrows and holster.
After doing some research I found relatively little information about these miniature weapons, but I decided to give it a try anyway.
Link to a picture of an original on that came up on a Google search:
https://s-media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/83/29/98/832998f7fb5205b843b6cee1b44b9249.jpg
There were two main hurdles form me; the first being the unavailability of baleen, so I opted for sinew backed hickory with a thin horn belly lam. The second hurdle being my inexperience in bowery in general - having only completed a handful of functioning bows - and the fact that I had never made a truly successful horn and sinew bow and so embarking on a project to make one measuring just 14" nock to nock was ambitious.
I'm a fair way into this project and in case anyone is interested I will document my miniature adventure so far below, thoughts, ideas, questions and constructive criticism all welcome!
Tommy
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(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/BD0BB9BB-95A3-4C19-8B91-0E5ADC9AF5E7_zpsrobtu7pv.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/BD0BB9BB-95A3-4C19-8B91-0E5ADC9AF5E7_zpsrobtu7pv.jpg.html)
The belly laminations are cow horn, the core is hickory and the riser is ipe. I also used antler in the centre for the horn to butt against and also for the
(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/7C0B05B3-06B2-48A5-97CC-A614BE4B8719_zpsqnzhtsll.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/7C0B05B3-06B2-48A5-97CC-A614BE4B8719_zpsqnzhtsll.jpg.html)
I shaped the ipe riser got the horn and hickory to approximate size, decreased and roughed up the mating surfaces and glued it all together With Araldite epoxy, reflexing out of the handle and deflexing mid limb.
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This is how she looked after taking her out of the form 14 hours later With some sanding, shaping and the addition of the antler centre strip.
(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/A97BC1DE-2411-4FB6-BD08-4E8D10AA03E1_zpsktrondjr.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/A97BC1DE-2411-4FB6-BD08-4E8D10AA03E1_zpsktrondjr.jpg.html)
(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/A76AD7DF-9E2C-44C4-809B-259EBDD20EE0_zpssbnydvnz.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/A76AD7DF-9E2C-44C4-809B-259EBDD20EE0_zpssbnydvnz.jpg.html)
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Looks like a fun project. Never heard of these bows. Looking forward to seeing it finished. Thanks for sharing.
Tattoo Dave
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These bows were basically the Japanese version of Carriage bows.
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A carriage bow is generally thought of as a take-down is it not?
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Pat;
I'm not real sure. The pictures I saw in a book didn't show a lot detail. I have a book called Yudo bows that show some of the Japanese ones, But James Parker has it.
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Very cool, can't wait to see the rest of your progress.
I made a little Osage bow one day just to see if I could. It was 12 inches long and pulled a whopping 4lbs and it shot bamboo skewers like darts. Really fun to play with. A word to the wise though, use progressively smaller grits of sandpaper for tillering. It don't take much to get it to bend a "LOT". Good luck, Patrick
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Ah you should have added more reflex not deflex midlimb! It will stack way sooner now especially with the reflexed handle. Reflexed handles just force the bow to bend further from the handle increasing stack and lowering energy storage.
Have a look at this one.
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http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/39485#.VDdn24FdWSo
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I always meant to make another of these bows as it was just too cool. As mentioned in that thread you don't have get some funny looks when you pull out a bow like this!! :) :) :)
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Thanks for all the replys so far.
I'll post the next instalment shortly.
Mikekeswick - as tempting as it is to pile on the reflex, I have put the mid limb deflex in for three reasons;
1. As you'll see in my next posts I've added siyahs to the tips, I felt too much reflex would put such a little bow under too much stress.
2. These bows were traditionally left braced for very long periods of time, and again I wouldn't want to put that much stress on the bow
3. It really like the five bend, 'gullwing' profile!
More progress updates and photos to follow!
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Eddie, I meant that a carriage bow is a bow for carrying by carriage in broken down form, not using in it as some have suggested.
The small Japanese bow was meant to be used like a pistol for self defense from some sort of vehicle. Likely while being carried in a litter.
Two entirely different meanings for carriage.
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Mikekeswick - as tempting as it is to pile on the reflex, I have put the mid limb deflex in for three reasons;
1. As you'll see in my next posts I've added siyahs to the tips, I felt too much reflex would put such a little bow under too much stress.
2. These bows were traditionally left braced for very long periods of time, and again I wouldn't want to put that much stress on the bow
3. It really like the five bend, 'gullwing' profile
But by putting reflex in the handle and deflex in the limbs like that you are doing the opposite of what your wanting it to be...I agree with mike...the best design for what your wanting from it wood be to have deflex in the handle..then increasing reflex towards the tips of your working limbs...then short sharp recurves/siyahs...it'll give you the smoothest pulling,lowest stressed(especially since you want it to be braced for long periods of time),furthest draw per length of bow,and will spit an arrow faster all else equally...like I said you pretty much did the opposite of what ya intended to do....but its sinew n horn n will still stretch like rubber
The deflex limbs of a gullwing isn't "induced" during glue up...its from set
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I've then cut some more hickory and ipe for the siyahs and split an antler tine for underplays to reinforce the tips and serve as string bridges.
(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/A8009D83-C278-4C7D-A423-0B1D937C52DF_zpsgeii2jry.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/A8009D83-C278-4C7D-A423-0B1D937C52DF_zpsgeii2jry.jpg.html)
(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/E3572D6E-AAE7-409E-A801-2F65FB9D678B_zps5lcvrvcj.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/E3572D6E-AAE7-409E-A801-2F65FB9D678B_zps5lcvrvcj.jpg.html)
(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/01A264D6-CAF4-4F2D-8102-CCF0BE5B5CB0_zpstocrejds.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-09/01A264D6-CAF4-4F2D-8102-CCF0BE5B5CB0_zpstocrejds.jpg.html)
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Blackhawk - I'm sure you're right! This is where my inexperienced speaks volumes! But unfortunatly I'm already two far through to change the design, so I'll just cross my fingers and pray. But thank you for the advice.
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It's probably important to realize that the bow that is being attempted does have the more gullwing shape.
While it might make more sense to make a mini-Assyrian style, that's not what the bow in question looks like.
It looks much more like a tiny Scythian bow.
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I then aplied two layers of sinew and let it dry in reflex. I then spread a thin layer of titebond 3 over the top and covered it with sawdust and let it cure for 4 weeks.
(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/E3ED6BC0-76BA-42B5-9E6C-73EB59C0CA83_zpsl8f7v2vy.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/E3ED6BC0-76BA-42B5-9E6C-73EB59C0CA83_zpsl8f7v2vy.jpg.html)
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While waiting for the sinew to cure I started work on the quiver/holster.
I started by wet moulding some 4mm veg tanned leather to form the base. Fixing it to a piece of heavy hardwood and fixed on a horn plate to support the back.
I will be fletching the arrows with pheasant flight feathers and using my African grey parots ruby red tail feathers (which she regularly sheds) for the cock feather. Red accents will be a theme for this project.
(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/65F59C5C-2958-4823-81E6-E211836F54B6_zpslg3f0yv9.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/65F59C5C-2958-4823-81E6-E211836F54B6_zpslg3f0yv9.jpg.html)
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Eddie, I meant that a carriage bow is a bow for carrying by carriage in broken down form, not using in it as some have suggested.
The small Japanese bow was meant to be used like a pistol for self defense from some sort of vehicle. Likely while being carried in a litter.
Two entirely different meanings for carriage.
Gotcha, Pat, definitely not the same bow I'm thinking of.
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Here is a snap of it braced. It's pulling 12# @7"
(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/F4E1D2AF-3C4D-46C6-8DD8-3260DDC12B6A_zps52ctvbld.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/F4E1D2AF-3C4D-46C6-8DD8-3260DDC12B6A_zps52ctvbld.jpg.html)
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For someone who claims not to have built many bows, you've certainly done yourself proud with this one. Nice work!
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Absolutely awesome! How does it shoot? Where's the money shot! Full draw please! :laugh: Patrick
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You've inspired me to make another one. ;)
Horn and sinew bows have a different set of rules than wood. >:D You could've had it reflexed so the tips touched and it wouldn't have hurt it at all. Even with a long stringing time.
A full draw picture is what i'm waiting for! Take it's ntn length and divide by 1.6 to get a good idea of the drawlength that it can take.
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very very cool
chuck
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I want to see the arrows! And I want some feathers from your bird! :)
It's looking good. Why the sawdust in between?
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Full draw picks coming soon. I've had a minor drama with the backing (asthetic only, sinew is holding up fine.) I put alternate layers of CA glue and gold acrylic paint over the sinew, sanding between coats, then glued the snakeskin over the top and bevelled the edges to create a faux gold border.
Unfortunately the layers of acrylic and CA de-laminated. Altough The effect worked well, it just didn't like to bend, so I've re-designed the backing and I'm in the proces of refinishing it, I should be able to get full draw picks by tomorrow.
Chadwick - I've never made arrows, so I'm gonna need to do a fair amount of research before I take the plunge! Any advice is welcome.
The reson for the titebond and sawdust over the sinew is to give me something to sand down into after the sinew cures so I don't damage the sinew, but still get a smooth surface. I might have read this somwhere or I might have dreamed it up. I don't know whether it is considered a viable option, but it works for me.
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Chadwick - if you live in the UK I'm happy to stick some feathers in the post for you.
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It's fine to sand the sinew layer flat. You can also compress it so it sits flat. As you've found out superglue doesn't like to bend ;)
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Full draw pics as promised. The tiller isn't great I know, doesn't bend at all out of the handle and there's a hinge in the top limb. I'm not going to mess around with it anymore as most of the finishing work is done and I don't think I'm going to get it bending too much more out of the handle. It's currently 15# @8" and spits arrows pretty quick.
(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/993F6AD3-AD6C-4A8A-B811-0EAA4654897D_zpshvupgpyd.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/993F6AD3-AD6C-4A8A-B811-0EAA4654897D_zpshvupgpyd.jpg.html)
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(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/2C209E44-3B61-465E-A02E-C4A6BB454DF3_zpsxjfhydcp.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/2C209E44-3B61-465E-A02E-C4A6BB454DF3_zpsxjfhydcp.jpg.html)
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Oh, and that fluffy little number is a muntjac deer tail I got at work. The perks of being a chef :) it's going to feature on the quiver/holster.
Thanks for the replys.
Tommy
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What kind of range are you getting out of it? Excellent build by the way!
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Well I've only tested it up to 10 yards. It's fairly accurate up to these lengths, but slices slightly to the left. I think this is because of the spine of the arrows. Still, it makes good penatration at these distances. As a short range weapon, I think it would need to be a very accurate or lucky shot to kill, that being said, I wouldn't want to be on the dead end of an arrow slung from this thing.
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This is where I'm at with the holster/quiver. It's made up of mostly horn and 4mm veg tan leather, a few rivets and some glue.
(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/tommyz4/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/2FF9EFA7-4B72-4FFF-B4E9-EBB8C75E4395_zpsjmzy8t1e.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/tommyz4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/2FF9EFA7-4B72-4FFF-B4E9-EBB8C75E4395_zpsjmzy8t1e.jpg.html)
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Can you post a picture with the equipment in the quiver? I'm having trouble picturing how everything fits.
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I certainly will when I've made the holes. It's by no means finished. Just a skeleton really.
In the mean time this example of an antique Rimankyu might help you see how it's going to work:
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/be/23/a6/be23a64d84d699d14fe7994a5acfd2c0.jpg
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That site won't load on my work computer. I will check it out when I am at home.
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You should be proud of yourself. There is a lot of work in that bow! The full draw pic is priceless. I knew it was small, but it is really small!! Congrats!