Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sleek on November 21, 2014, 11:24:23 pm
-
Anybody ever have a knot hole line up perfectly in the handle for a shoot through the center bow?
-
I've seen pics of a bow like that but you have to keep in mind that the hole through the center needs to be pretty wide to minimise interference as the arrow flexes.
-
Someone on PA built one years ago but I don't remember when.
-
How wide are we talking exactly? And if its a center shot, I could shoot a stiffer arrow that doesn't flex much because it doesnt need to paradox anymore right?
-
You're forgetting how much even a "perfect" release throws the tail end of the arrow off.
-
This is almost deja vu! Just the other day me and a buddy was just contemplating this very idea. I think it would be really interesting to try one with the right knot in the right stave. Patrick
-
Well, I'm doing it, so we will see. Hadnt thought about the release. If it goes south and doesnt work, I can cut the outside off the knot to make an arrow pass.
-
I'm curious to see how this works... please post some pictures of your work. ;)
-
Well im taking pics as I go and we will see how it goes.
-
The hole btw, is 7/8" wide and I havent cleaned it up yet, the bark and such is still in there.
-
Olympic recurves are centershot but watch the slow mo footage of arrows being released.
Welcome to smashed arrows before they even hit a target! >:D >:D
-
But it'll be interesting to see!
-
Olympic recurves are centershot but watch the slow mo footage of arrows being released.
Welcome to smashed arrows before they even hit a target! >:D >:D
Dont tell me that. Crap, I thought I had something neat here. Oh well, im making the hole bigger as I type and we will see. Maybe I can make a whisker biscuit to hold the arrow as it flies through...
-
Good luck I hope it works for you. Cause I want to see it work.
-
I've seen Victorian Popinjay bows made like that...
I think they shot stiff heavy tipped arrows.
Del
-
It can work out with a really stiff shaft..but use a heavy glove on your bowhand just in case.
The whisper bisquit is probably a good idea too.
Btw olympic bows have a window that is "centershot" but the trimmed in bow is very seldom so.
They use the plunger to utilize the paradox to get the "right" flight.
-
I think this could work, but I'd be using stiffer than normal arrows and a pinch-grip release. You'd want to minimise the roll-off-the-fingers effect of the Mediterranean release that contributes to archers' paradox.
-
Don't read this if you are easily bored!
It's a bit of a hobby horse of mine...
A centre shot bow has no paradox.
A modern bow with a pressure button and all that paraphernalia is to do with tuning the arrow to the release and the bow/string system.
We should be careful not to confuse paradox and tuning .
The actual "Paradox" is that an arrow on the string at brace on a primitive bow is pointing hard left yet it flies straight! How so?
The Answer to the paradox is that the arrow flexes around the bow...
So many modern target archers think arrow flex is the paradox... it's not, it's the explanation to the paradox and a feature of any long thin object.
Sorry to bang on about this and you prob' all realised this anyway. I'm just making it my mission to stop the wrong definition of parodox becoming common usage. An arrow on centre shot bow pretty much points at the target all the way from brace to FD so you'd expect it to fly straight anyway.
I even re-wrote the Wikipedia definition 'cos it was wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer%27s_paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer%27s_paradox)
It's mosty target archers who don't know what they are talking about ::) ('cos their kit is too complicated.... they bolt on 10 pound of long rods and stabilisers, hold at full draw for 10 seconds and then wonder why they get tennis elbow >:D)
Del
-
...
If it goes south and doesnt work, I can cut the outside off the knot to make a arrow pass.
Make sure to leave enough meat on the oposite side!
Second thought, that is probably the better way to go anyway, imo.
What you all think?
-
Ack! I just read your quote of me. Terriable! I hate when people use the word " a " infront of a word that starts with a vowel other than the leter "u ". I gadda fix that.
On a relevant note, im trying to leave as much meat as I can so I can remove the side of the knot if I need to.
-
After doing more thought and looking at what I have to work with on the handle, I have an idea. I can, if I am careful, make the handle so that I can shoot through the bow, and if I drop my grip about an inch, shoot off my hand, without sacrificing anything except maybe handle comfort? But I think I can figure that out too.
Id post pics but not sure how to from my phone? They are on photobucket.
-
Many flight bows have a large hole to shoot through but the arrows used on them are tiny and the hole is about 3- 4 inches in diameter. The arrow is balanced in the center without resting on anything really.
While Del is right about the difference between paradox and just arrow flexing under the push of the string the net result is the same to the arrow.
-
Someone on PA built one years ago but I don't remember when.
Maybe your thinking of chuck(holeinthebowchuck)... I'm pretty sure he made one years ago,and it didn't work all to well for him.
-
I just searched his name and nothing came up.
-
I don't remember if it was Chuck but I do remember it didn't work well.
-
the arrow is still flexing and vibrating as well as the string,, so makes it hard to control
-
Please follow through to satisfy our curiosity. It does occur to me that it wil by necessary to sight with one eye, unless that hole in the bow is really big or you eyes are really far apart. :o
Jimn Davis
-
I will carry on. I got a way to shoot through the center or off my hand on this bow if I want. The hole is one inch wide and I can see through it with the arrow in it just fine. I shoot with both eyes open but this should cause no problems.
-
Two summers ago I took a trip to Ecuador. At one of the markets in Quito there were about 45 inch bendy handled bows. Right in the middle of these bows were 1/2 inch drilled holes. The arrows for these had no fletchings and were only about 12 inches long and were pretty stiff. More like darts than arrows. I don't know if this helps but I think they are pretty interesting. I'm still mad at myself for not buying one. >:(
-
Just a thought, what if you lined the knot hole with heavy corse fur. Sorta like the modern whisker biscuit. Shoot heavy stiff arrows with very short feathers. Say, tapering from nothing to about a quarter of an inch high. Or a short banana cut. Just a thought. Patrick
-
I did one about 1996, it was Honey Locust from Texas and the hole was 1-1/2" dia. the entire knot was a good 3", so it was very strange looking. I padded the bottom of the hole and used it as an arrow rest, it was60#'s @ 28" and one side of the hole cracked after a couple of hundred shots and a fellow from Texas wanted it as a wallhanger, so as far as I know it still is. There was no problem with arrow passage. I'm not Chuck.
-
There have been a few companies make tradbows that were shot thru a hole in the middle but I have not used them so I dont know what difficulties they had, but don't think it was arrow pass problems.
-
Just seems like the hole thing/whole thing would get in my line of sight...Don't know? But I'm a gap shooter now... This is an interesting thread though... :laugh:
Don
-
Pat might be thinking of Chris Tindall, I think his username was bowmonkey, from the early to mid 2000's
-
The stats on this bow are 64.25" ttt, 1 3/8" out the fades ( except the upper limb knot, its 1" on the inside and 1/4" on the outside ) and 1 inch wide most its length. The billets were kinda skinny, I never made a bow so narrow. Unsure what kind of tiller to go for here.
From the knot, whick is the fade on the upper limb, to tip is 28" so I have plenty room to shorten it or recurve it ( which I wanna do ). The goal is 50#@26". The billets were glued so the string falls down the center of the knot hole. With off center tips by about 1/2" can a recurve be done or will the torque twist the limbs?
At floor bending I can feel the handle give very slightly. Being spliced billets with a scarf joint I dont want the joint to work in the handle. Probably gonna glue a piece of wood on to stiffen it up. Its 1.25" wide and an inch deep, 7" long between the inside of the fades. If I just glue on a pice of wood think it will pop off?
Edit after doing some tillering I shortened it to 60.5" long. It came out to 40#@26".
-
Pat might be thinking of Chris Tindall, I think his username was bowmonkey, from the early to mid 2000's
Chris Tindall was Bowkinn, Russell Barton was bowmonkey. ;)
-
I searched both guys and any pics have been deleated by admin.
-
Pat might be thinking of Chris Tindall, I think his username was bowmonkey, from the early to mid 2000's
Chris Tindall was Bowkinn, Russell Barton was bowmonkey. ;)
Thanks Pat, I realized after that Chris was not bowmonkey but I still couldn't remember his username. I think Russell's last name was Bartlow, I picked up a pile of stuff from him when he went out of business. Russell never did register an account on this new board but Chris did and then disappeared, again.
-
Well guys, heres an update. I got it tillered out and shot it once. I need to go to the dentist now. I think I lost a filling. No it didnt break but man alive I need to thin down them tips some. Ouch! Hand shock to the extreme. I shortened it too from 64" to 60.5" with the lower limb shorter by 1.5" to allow the hole in the handle to be center.
The arrow I shot didnt have a head on it and it was cut a bit short from the head having been broke off. Im going to narrow the tips down and recurve them gently. I like them to be where the string almost touches but not quite. More of an extremely reflexed tip than recurved.
I took pics the whole way through the build but I dont know how to get from my phone to the thread?
-
... but I dont know how to get from my phone to the thread?
If you bang the phone very hard against the computer screen.... it won't work, but you'll feel better :o
Del :laugh:
-
Sleek, that's awesome! Can't wait to see it!
If you have a smart phone then you can get a free photo bucket app and post your pics from there. Patrick
-
Sleek, You gotta get some pics up man, You can't be doing us like that >:D
Don
-
Well id like to get pics up... I really would. I have made lots of bows lately and haven't posted a one because idk how. I have a galaxy s3 and the photobucket app but I dont see the img link to copy and paste.
Im gonna narrow down and flip the tips today and get some more pics. I documented the entire build with pics, including my ( I think ) unique handle splice method. However, my wife just told me no pics until im done completely with it :(
-
Well id like to get pics up... I really would. I have made lots of bows lately and haven't posted a one because idk how. I have a galaxy s3 and the photobucket app but I dont see the img link to copy and paste.
Im gonna narrow down and flip the tips today and get some more pics. I documented the entire build with pics, including my ( I think ) unique handle splice method. However, my wife just told me no pics until im done completely with it :(
Scroll to bottom of screen and click on full site. Can get img links there.
-
I am trying to figure it out...
In the meantime, I reflexed the tips and wow is it sexy. I shot it about 20 times. I have shot it off my hand, arrow goes left, and I have shot it through the hole, arrow goes right. I adjust the brace from 6 to 7 inches. It tightened it up some but not much. Its so bad I actually missed the target once. I dont miss that bad! Gonna play with spine next.
As for shooting style, I shoot instinctive, actually instinctive. I shoot best in the dark when I dont get distracted by trying to aim. Point is, the arrow in the hole shouldnt be messing with me. Im confused, but if I can get an arrow and this bow tuned to each other, im going to fall in love.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_183408_zps9d40d0e7.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_183408_zps9d40d0e7.jpg.html)
Well lets see if this worked... if it did ithe handle splice being prepared.
-
Now that you figured out how to post pictures. I want to see them all!!! ;D Patrick
-
Ok, here comes the pic heavy build pics... its gonna take me a bit between posts but I will say done when I get to the last one
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_182335_zps9092561c.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_182335_zps9092561c.jpg.html).
Here I am lining up the handle sections, and marking out where the fades will be. I figures the fade needs to be in the hole because I dont want it to bend and risk breaking.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_182351_zpsf63b848a.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_182351_zpsf63b848a.jpg.html)
The arrow fits nicely...
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_182416_zpsd2ffa858.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_182416_zpsd2ffa858.jpg.html)
The grip will want some work but I think I can make it comfy.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_182449_zpse311faa2.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_182449_zpse311faa2.jpg.html)
The back of the hole. Plenty of dead wood to file out to open up for the arrow to pass through.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_182515_zpsabf65dd4.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_182515_zpsabf65dd4.jpg.html)
Handle and fade layout figured out. Plan is to allow me to choke up on the grip to fire through the hole or drop my grip to shoot off my hand.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_182547_zpsd6207fb3.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_182547_zpsd6207fb3.jpg.html)
Lined up.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_183110_zpsca7bc6be.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_183110_zpsca7bc6be.jpg.html)
7" long scarf joint. Using a straight edge to check flatness.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_183124_zpscabb1a34.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_183124_zpscabb1a34.jpg.html)
Again, checking flatness, in this case, cupping.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_183719_zpsad6f7d30.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_183719_zpsad6f7d30.jpg.html)
I almost ruined it by coming close to cutting the scarf on the other billet the wrong direction. Scribbled out line is what I almost cut. Paid to double check!
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_183846_zps362e5f3b.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_183846_zps362e5f3b.jpg.html)
Much better... lol
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_184539_zpsf9e7a560.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_184539_zpsf9e7a560.jpg.html)
Laid up with a bit of overlap on the hole. A file will make quick work of that.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_184559_zps601c1724.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_184559_zps601c1724.jpg.html)
The back. I had to check alignment to get the string to fall center of the hole.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141121_184656_zps1c3702d0.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141121_184656_zps1c3702d0.jpg.html)
Side view
-
I am marking this spot to come back and add a few pics. See, when doing a splice like this, they like to spread apart when clamped. The glue makes it all slippery. So to lock it in place I make a small dimple half the depth of a bb in the middle of on scarf. The I dab a little glue around the perimeter of the hole. I line up the other billets scarf on top and press them togeather. This transfers the glue from the dimple to the other billet. The I take the billet with the transfer and drill a hole in it same depth and width. I size both scarfs with glue, drop a BB in the hole, and clamp the billets together. The BB locks both pieces together so the dont slip under clamp pressure. I WILL do another probably in a few days and post pics here.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141122_012248_zps03ca0836.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141122_012248_zps03ca0836.jpg.html)
The back after cleaning up the dried splice some.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141122_012305_zpsb60f75cf.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141122_012305_zpsb60f75cf.jpg.html)
Side view of the glue lines. Kinda proud of that. Notice I left the sapwood on. I love the look and I havent noticed a performance difference.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141122_012317_zps0d220c67.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141122_012317_zps0d220c67.jpg.html)
Belly view.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141122_012328_zpsd53a0c55.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141122_012328_zpsd53a0c55.jpg.html)
Side cleaned up. I even got the sapwood to line up.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141122_012944_zps2afa6192.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141122_012944_zps2afa6192.jpg.html)
-
Beyond that I just had to shape the handle for comfort. Building the bow was business as usual. Brace and unbrace up next.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141127_223246_zpsvdwx4usm.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141127_223246_zpsvdwx4usm.jpg.html)
Unbraced
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141127_172812_zpskg4obekt.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141127_172812_zpskg4obekt.jpg.html)
Braced
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141127_172822_zpsb8sfzw1t.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141127_172822_zpsb8sfzw1t.jpg.html)
Full draw...
And done.
Well I hope I didnt over post pics. Tell me what yall think.
-
We're going to need some circles and arrows to show us where that splice is. Good job! I like the BB idea.
-
Your splice and the bow look great! Hope you can get it to shoot good through the hole.
-
You're a crazy genius.
-
Wow, the only thing that makes the splice visible is the dark area on the top splice. That is some quality work!
-
Does the joint go into the knot? Def looks interesting. Also could u maybe ainew around the knot then wrap it a bit to beef it up insase
-
You're a crazy genius.
Your half right anyway...
-
The splice just barely touches the knot. The way the knot is naturally rounded on the corners and well formed. I left it thick and it bends after the knot. Im not worried. Good idea though.
-
Was showing my buddy the bow today and handed it to him to shoot. He was hitting bulls eye consistently. I told him how bad I was missing a demonstrated. Haha darned if I couldnt miss either. I donk know what my problem wasnlast night but today I was on the money. Good feeling. May be hope yet.
By the way, I hear the arrow hit when I have a sloppy release. Gadda be careful and check my arrows after each shot. I will probably switch to bamboo shafts for durability and spine forgiveness.
-
That's just so cool... a little bit Henry Moore :laugh:
Del
-
That looks like a fancy thumb ring to me.... maybe next knot hole I get I will artistically carve in the form of feminine beauty.... :D
-
Man thats awsome! I would not have thought of using a scarf joint.. Impressive!.... Brian
-
Awesome work, Sleek. I wouldn't trust that overlap splice, but it holds up obviously.
-
That's awesome, but borderline wheelie ;)
-
Well fellas, it broke. But in an interesting spot and way. First off, it opened up on the lower limb, not the upper so the knot hole is fine :) from center of the bow, if you cut the lower limb in thirds, it broke on the inner third. Seems there is a small pin knot there. I heard it open up before it broke. It wasnt the normal tick sound of a splinter. It actually sounded like a piece of paper being torn. I couldnt find where the noise came from because I only looked around the hole. I dropped the brace height some as it was high anyay, and I drew it many more times and it was fine. Finally I took it an inch beyond my draw length and it went bang.
Looki g at the break, I see the sapwood is very spongy, as in porous. I never broke a sapwood back osage before. Actually, dont think I ever broke osage at all before. I think the pin knot ( which I don't think I violated ), spongy wood, shorter lower limb, extreemly dry air, and too high a brace height all made the perfect storm. Plan is now to cut the brokken billet off, regrind the scarf joint, and find another billet to splice on. In the meanwhile its going on the shelf to sit. I have many things to do right now.
-
Bwahhhhhh :'(
Good autopsy!... Maybe you can use the hole in another bow... just be careful where you store it ::)
Del
-
Will you post a pic or two of the break?
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141201_154645_zpsvreysigt.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141201_154645_zpsvreysigt.jpg.html)
The break ran along the belly clear to my thumb on the limb. On the handle side of the break it went all the way to the fade. I cant find the belly piece that actually came off, it all came apart with gusto.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141201_154620_zpscmwgsxbw.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141201_154620_zpscmwgsxbw.jpg.html)
Spongy porous sapwood
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141201_154540_zpsaco8o8pz.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141201_154540_zpsaco8o8pz.jpg.html)
Side view of the break. You can see where it started and how it spread out looking for a weak spot for the stresses to leave out of. Good to see the sapwood didnt delam. I do however have a high ring count on this wood. Very thin rings.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141201_154500_zpsgrfbwms4.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141201_154500_zpsgrfbwms4.jpg.html)
The back of the break. At my thumb is the tiny little pin knot. The break went almost straight across at that one spot.
I think the lesson here is, low brace height, trap the belly when running a high ring count or chase a ring to the heartwood, and thats all I can really think of. Anybody else? Pin knots are common in osage and I dont know what I could have done there.
-
i didnt see what your draw was,, or how long the bow,, I think I missed it,, but I think you did great considering the issues you had to resolve,,
but bottom line,, you drew the bow more than it could take,, :)
-
The final stats were 60.5" ttt, 40#@26" 1 3/8 out the lower fade, 1 1/4 out the upper fade ( added the thickness of both sides of the knot walls together ) and tapering to 5/8" nocks.
Dont write this bow off yet. Im going to splice a new limb in soon.
-
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141201_154620_zpscmwgsxbw.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141201_154620_zpscmwgsxbw.jpg.html)
If you pay attention to this picture you will see on the thickest part of the break a color and texture differeance going up and down in a straight line. Thats the exact cross section of the pin knot where it broke. You can see how the grainis disturbed around it. I just thought it was an interesting point to note.
-
Did the pin knot run straight through from back to belly, or at a 45, into the limb. Could be why it went straight when it broke.
-
It ran straight from back to belly.
-
I finally got her shooting again. Still a bit of hand shock but im happy to be shooting her again.
-
It shoots fine. Low profile fletching may be good to minimize probability of touching edges of hole as arrow is launched. That bow won't be mistaken for any other!
Congrats, Kevin!