Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: rbpwrd240 on November 24, 2014, 03:38:58 pm
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Hi gang,
First time poster long time lurker. While I was fishing on a friends land I found a huge osage orange tree, during processing the seeds I found out the tree makes a great bow. Something I have wanted to try for some time. My buddies family will let me harvest a branch but they dont want the tree cut down. My questions are.
Iv heard a safe stave length of about 68" but I have also heard 2.3 x your draw. If I put a yard stick in my chest and I reach out and touch my fingers together they touch at 23". So doubling that is 46 plus 8" for the handle equals a stave length of 54". I have also heard a good length is about 60" or an average draw of 30"????
Can someone please help explain this to me?
Also I see that everyone wants staves from the trunk. Will it be okay to find a straight branch or a branch with a slight bend in it that has a diameter of about 4" for my stave?
Thanks in advance for all the help!!!
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Lots to consider with that question. How well will the bow be made? Is your draw really 30 inches? Static handle or bendy handle? Crowned stave or flat? Knots or super clean? All things being equal, and without knowing any of that, 64 to 68 inches should get you there in my opinion.
Limbs are fine for bows.
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60" long for a 30" sure ain't average for most of the guys on this site I'll promise you that, your draw is closer to 23" it sounds like, 64" is a good place to start, I'd go bendy but you could easily do a stiff handled bow at that length, better to go a little longer on the first few, then as you improve you can go shorter
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Draw length times two plus 10" is a good rule to start with. How tall are you?
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Well to anwser a few of those questions.
I am an above average craftsman.
I'm 5'8"
This is my first self bow. I used to practice with an indian style long bow when I was a kid so I am familiar with what it "should" look and feel like but otherwise have nothing to go on.
I dont have a 30" draw. Im not sure exactly what my draw is. I heard two different ways to measure it.
One said your draw was 5" added to your draw by the yard stick method, mine being 23" it means my draw is around 28".
Another said to be safe to make sure the bow wont break you should just double 30" which is an average length. Making your stave 60".
I was thinking it would be a bendy handle as I want to do a single piece bow. Is this correct?
My goal is to hunt a deer with a self made bow and arrow. Id like a slightly shorter bow but I dont want to give up strength and safty. I would hate to put in all this work just to brake the bow down the road.
Thanks for the help!!!
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good advice is seldom taken,, make it 66 inches ,,, thats a nice middle of the road,,when you become more experienced make it any length you want
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If I have a 23" Draw doubled thats 46" and after adding 8" for the handle for a simple D bow and I get 54" Why are all the suggestions to go over 64"?
Can someone explain this to me?
I am here for advice. Trouble is figuring out the best advice for you to follow in your situation. Again I feel I am an above average craftsman. I feel confident in my abilitys. I just want to know what the safe range is for a competant person to expect to get a 45lb plus pull so I can hunt with the bow.
I figured I would get a simple equation anwser such as the double the draw and add 8" idea. The other one I have heard is as tall as you are which for me at 5'8" would be 68". Thats quite a difference.
I was going to build a flat backed 1.75" wide 23" long armes 4" handle 1.25" wide 1.25" deep with 2" of tapper on each side of the handle then tappered from 2" wide to 1/2" wide at the last 15" of the arms. The blank would start at 1/2" deep and the hanlde would be 1.5" deep but tillering would enevitable finalize the depth of the arms. Yourbaisc first self bow. Totalling 54". Is this too short becouse of the dangers of it breaking?
If I go 60" It would be 26" arms.
If I go 64" It would be 28" arms.
If I go to 66" it would be 29" arms.
If I go to 68" it would be 30" arms.
What is the benefit of using these longer lengths other then bow strength. I am affraid it will loose lb in the pull and be tough to amnouver in the texas brushy hill country I plan to hunt in. I dont want to be in a stand. I want to be on the ground stalking the animal.
Thanks again for the help.
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it does not work exactly like that,, the longer bow will be more forgiving as you learn, if you make a mistake it will more than likely still make a bow,,,I could write a chapter on it,, the longer bow will shoot great if tillered right,, there is not an exact length for any draw,,,it depends on the tiller design etc,,,,, as they go shorter, it takes more skill with very little gained in performance,, your figures you are quoting are not what most go by anyway,, 64 for 26,,, 65 for 27,,, 66 for 28 ,,, is a good staring point,, as you gain experience you can go shorter,,, if you make the longer bow and miss the weight,,, the longer bow can be cut shorter and tillered so you hit your weight etc etc etc,,,also you have nothing to loose by making the longer bow,, if you do want to shoot the bow at a longer draw guess what ,, the longer bow will accommodate ,, the shorter bows are more limited in how far they can be drawn etc, etc etc etc etc,,
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Pearls advice was concise. Double your draw length and add 10 inches. Not knowing your draw length renders that equation unusable. Your draw length was 30 inches, then 28, now 23. That range is from a very long draw to a very short one and without knowing that, just guesses. Your draw is somewhere in the middle my guess. Let's guess 28. 28•2=56+10=66. You can modify those numbers once you know your draw length.
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I havent used different draw rates just different ways to get your draw.
Im still unsure what my draw is as no one has anwsered that question.
I have heard of several ways to figure out your draw.
If I put my arms out in front of me and touch my index fingers together they hit at 23". This was in the very first post.
By the 2.3 times your draw then the length would be 53".
The 30" draw rate was used on a build I looked at as a safe mark as they said most would be safe in this range.
Then I have heard of double your draw and add 8 inches for a handle. so my 23" would be 46 plus a 8" handle would be 54"
As pearl said. My draw would be 23" doubled which is 46 plus 10 would be 56".Far short of what others are mentioning.
So what is the proper draw length and what is the proper equation?
Thanks all.
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The problem is that until you shoot a bit and develop a consistent form, there is no good way to predict your draw length. I am six feet tall and when I use the arms in front method, it tells me 28. If I am shooting a recurve target-style, I might have 28, but since I have found a looser stance to be more comfortable and accurate for longbow and selfbow, my draw is more like 26 on a good day...probably more like 25.5, but that also depends on the font to back depth of the bow. 26 seems like a pretty typical draw length on this site.
66 inches is not a bad length of bow to carry through the woods. My current main hunting bow is 64" nock to nock, and I get hung up a lot more than it does. I would suggest cutting as close to 72" as possible, seal the ends immediately, split it in half, and debark and remove the sapwood (unless it is a 2" branch, in which case you may need the sapwood, but I believe you said 4"). You will need to let it dry for a good while, during which time you can figure out things like bendy vs. rigid handle, bow length, etc. Picking a design is fun, and you will have time to research a bit.
If you are drawn to the craftsmanship of the bowmaking process and really want a shorter bow, you might enjoy Dean Torges' book Hunting the Osage Bow, which will answer most of your questions before you even know enough to have them!
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I know you say you are a good craftsman, but you can be a master cabinet maker and not be able to build a shootable bow, there's a lot to building a good dependable bow, sounds to me like you want a short bow and aren't getting the answer you want so here ya go, if ya want a 52" bow, build a 52" bow, y'all are the one building it, cut it 6' long and split it then when seasoned cut one 52" and the other 64" and build both, my guess is you will shoot the longer bow better and have a better chance of it surviving as well
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Thank all,
By craftsman I mean I am good with my hands. I fabricate with an assortment of materials. I have been working with my hands for about 15 years. I dont want to sound full of my self but resonable principles of physics and construction are easy for me to understand and replicate. What most would consider difficult I have usually been able to master in a more then resonable amount of time. I dont expect to have a perfect bow out of the gate but I would be really suprised if I failed completly.
I am not stuck on a short bow I just wanted someone to explain why I needed the longer length. I guess if anything I wanted a bow sized for me. Not the general person. If Im going to invest this amount of time and energy I want to shoot for the best possible outcome that I can have.
Sounds like the reason for a longer bow is so you can have a little wiggle room for errors, mistakes and problems with the wood grain and splitting not so much for the long term durability of the bow.
I am here for imformation. If I just wanted to take someones word for it I could have just gone off of any one of the many write ups and started with a 68" hunk of wood. However I wanted to know why people start with long bows. What the principals were and what equations others were using and of course why.
If you cant tell I am a bit of a knowledge hound. I have always been the guy that ask's why. Not becouse I dont believe you or becouse I think you dont know but becouse I have found that getting to the root of the issue will always help you better understand the principals wether they be physical or mathmatical.
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I would suggest cutting as close to 72" as possible, seal the ends immediately, split it in half, and debark and remove the sapwood (unless it is a 2" branch, in which case you may need the sapwood, but I believe you said 4"). You will need to let it dry for a good while, during which time you can figure out things like bendy vs. rigid handle, bow length, etc. Picking a design is fun, and you will have time to research a bit.
If you are drawn to the craftsmanship of the bowmaking process and really want a shorter bow, you might enjoy Dean Torges' book Hunting the Osage Bow, which will answer most of your questions before you even know enough to have them!
I was under the impression that a 4" diameter branch was the smallest you could use. I also was under the impression that for Osage you had to remove the sap wood??
I was planning on roughing out the bow while the wood was greeen and then letting the blank dry. I am hoping to shorten the curing process.
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your figures you are quoting are not what most go by anyway,, 64 for 26,,, 65 for 27,,, 66 for 28 ,,, is a good staring point,, as you gain experience you can go shorter,,, if you make the longer bow and miss the weight,,, the longer bow can be cut shorter and tillered so you hit your weight etc etc etc,,,also you have nothing to loose by making the longer bow,, if you do want to shoot the bow at a longer draw guess what ,, the longer bow will accommodate ,, the shorter bows are more limited in how far they can be drawn etc, etc etc etc etc,,
Great info!!!
I was wondering how those measurments lay out on the bow? With the bow designed I mentioned earlier only the last 15" of the arms are tappered and the entire handle is 8 inches including taper on both ends. If I remove the handle and tapper how are my figures off?
The 64" bow would have 8 inches of handle making it 56" divide that in half and your left with 28" for the arms.
The numbers you mentioned must be of a different (probably superior) design could you explain the layout for this bow?
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Bubby is right. Build what you want. You will get plenty of advice from lots of guys on here. Understand going in that the advice you recieve is usually given to help you avoid the mistakes the rest of us made early on. I've done it all wrong. Too short, long, wide and narrow. When I help someone with a question I typically speak on issues I have some experience with. Bow length for someone easily qualifies as something I know just a bit about. If you want my opinion, go 64 to 68 inches. Your draw will more than likely fall somewhere near 26 28 inches and at this length range you will have a decent chance of keeping one together till it's done. Find a bow, draw it and measure your DL as a place to start. Then come on back and get her started. Don't let your prowess as a craftsman get in the way of building a bow. Good to have some skills in woodworking, but getting wood to bend without breaking is a skill rarely needed in most endeavors. Good luck with it.
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First of all, welcome to PA! I myself am fairly new to this obsession! I have made a few bows. At first I wanted to know all about dimensions and measurements myself. But after making a few I found that all I really wanted to know was a general length of the stave I had and where the center was. Then I let the wood decide what shape, width, and type of bow it wanted to be. That was when I figured out that finding the bow in the stave was just as awesome as shooting it when it was done. I guess what I'm saying, especially with Osage, is that sometimes what you want when you start isn't what it works out to be.
The suggestion I have for you is to cut your limb that will give you the best possible stave or staves. Split and seal the ends, remove the bark and sap wood and seal the back. Then I would purchase the "Traditional Bowyer's Bible" volume 1 and 2. While you are waiting on your stave to dry, read both of them and check out PA for other questions and answers. Some of the guys on here know those books by heart. During the process of your bow building post pictures and ask for advice and let the excellent bunch of guys on here walk you through your first bow. If you do that you will have a shooter for sure. Good luck on your first bow and I look forward to seeing your progress. Patrick
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Where are you at, might be someone close by to mentor you along, that would help tremendously
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Bubby, I believe he said something about the Texas Hill Country. Patrick
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When cutting staves i always cut them as long as as i can get. You can always shorten it later. As far as your draw length goes maybe you could build a board bow while your Osage is seasoning then you could easily figure out what your comfortable with and get experience in tillering as well. As your finding out....there are a lot of different rules of thumb that people use to determine bow length. There is no set dimensions that will work for just any piece of wood that you pick. Wood is like people......every piece is different and has its own flaws and quirks to work around as well as a wide range of densities and elasticity in the same species and even in staves from the same tree. Starting out making bows on the long side gives you more room for error and a greater chance of success as you learn to read what each piece of wood is telling you. On bright side....Osage is one of the most forgiving woods there is and capable of getting long draws from fairly short staves if properly tillered......but normally hard for a beginner to do.
Hope that helps.
Steve
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Let me change up the wording. If you were going to build a car from the ground up, would you start with a Lamborghini, or a Model T? Chances are you would start simple and work your way up. Longer is simpler (In my opinion). If you read enough post here you will soon see that a short bow is always something that people love. It is not for no good reason. It takes pinpoint craftsmanship to pull them off. I have made a few bows, and they all have their own issues. I am six feet tall, I can draw a bow 22, or 32. I do feel comfortable short drawing a bow, some people don't. They say a bow at full draw is 90% broken. Thus building a bow that can draw to 30 inches, even if you never do, is safer than to build a bow to draw 23 and raw it to 24, 10 or 20 times. You have to crawl before you can walk, and you can't run right out of the gate. When I started I had the same thoughts you did. And boy have I had my pride and confidence knocked in the dirt. Have fun. We are all here to help.
Joe
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Thanks Patrick, lots of texas guys here might be able to get some hands on help, the best kind
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Thank alot for all the kind words. Im located in San Antonio, TX.
So for clarification am I building a bendy bow with my current design?
Im going to go with a 64" Bow and I will try to get the stave as long as possible.
Here are the two write ups I am following. For an overal design I have taken bits from both.
http://www.survivalmastery.com/how-to-make-a-bow-and-arrow-part-1
http://www.natureskills.com/survival/bowmaking-basics/
Like I mentioned I plan to cut the branch and rough out a bow blank within a few days of cutting the branch down. Then I plan to let the bow season until it stops loosing weight. I will be storing it Horizontal in my house during this time I will probably clamp it down flat to make sure it doesnt bend during the curing process.
Once curred I will be using the following dimensions as my guide. Pending any imperfections in the bow.
D Curve Bow.
Handle 4" Long with 2" transitions on each side totaling 8" 1.25" Deep and 1.25" wide
Arms will be 1.75" wide and 28" Long with the last 15" tapering from 1.75" to 1/2" at the ends.
Once I have the bow smoothed out I will start the tillering process. My goal is to go slow, take my time and error on the side of margin whle making sure to keep things even.
Keep an eye out for me as I am sure I will have lots of questions along the way. For now I feel confident to go cut the branch down and make a roughed out bow blank.
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Sounds like a plan :) Dont forget to seal the back after chasing i ring. Osage likes to check bad if not sealed.
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If you need any hands on help, I'm up the road in Boerne. Be glad to help you with it. Humble spirit and a willingness to learn is all that's required.
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There ya go slimbob can be a big help in the learning curve
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when you clamp it down,, clamp it with a little reflex