Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sleek on November 24, 2014, 06:51:53 pm
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I glued a flattened boo strip on a tillered hickory stave. 24 hours later I was floor testing it and it came apart. I ised tight bond 3 what are yall using? It also looked like I had better adheasion in the center that the edges.
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I wait at least a week before flexing,don't care what the label says cuz their talking about flooring or something. If there is a poor glue line no amount of time will fix that.i'm loving staves right now,not sure if. I have the resolve to mess with lam bows again.
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Out here I start working the bow the next day sleek, how warm was it where you had the bow
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I have had more trouble with titebond on lam bows that I care to mention, and other projects too I have a deer grunt call just made last week that I can't sell because of a bad glue line, used titebond. Finely just stopped using it. May be my clamping methods, who knows, but I'm sticking with system three 2 part epoxy from here on out. The stuff is pricey, but worth it. Seems to work great for me.
Tattoo Dave
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Out here I start working the bow the next day sleek, how warm was it where you had the bow
It was inside all night and day. I got it gluing up again. If it fails again I will be giving up on it.
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Dave, you ever try west system? I have used it for building boats. Same deal as system 3 but not sure which is better.
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Titebond 111 is an awesome glue the only reasons for it to fail are poor mating surfaces (it has no gap filling properties at all, you must have perfect surfaces), not cured fully or you got dust etc in the joint and finally insufficient clamping pressure/too much clamping pressure.
I've never had a single failure with titebond. I must have glued up at least a hundred + lam bows with it.
I always recommend getting the data sheet that every glue has (ask the manufacturer) and then follow it to the letter.
Tattoo Dave - using titebond isn't the reason for a bad glueline. The gluelines are one of my favourite things about titebond - you can't see them at all when done right.
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I used to use Titebond 3, but after I did a LOT of destructive testing (some of it actually on purpose ::) ), I asked a friend of mine back in NC who builds boats for a living. For tough gluing operations where you need intense strength, flexibility, and all weather resistance, there's NO substitute for Resorcinol Glue.
I buy the 1 quart kit of Aerodux Resorcinol Resin from Amazon.com. It's a bit expensive at $62 per quart, but there's enough in there for about a dozen bows. (Make sure you mix it at a 5:1 ratio by weight, so a $20 digital scale is a must. I usually use 60g of liquid to 12g of powder for one bow. Oh, and don't use excessive clamping pressure... Just enough for squeezout is fine.)
Yeah, it's expensive, but where I've had Titebond 3 gluejoints fail, every destructive test that I've ever done with Resorcinol, the wood literally ripped apart where it was glued. There was never even one instance of a glue joint failue. That's why this stuff is used in boat building, as well as high strength industrial applications - it just works. It will even fill small gaps.
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Titebond 111 is an awesome glue the only reasons for it to fail are poor mating surfaces (it has no gap filling properties at all, you must have perfect surfaces), not cured fully or you got dust etc in the joint and finally insufficient clamping pressure/too much clamping pressure.
I've never had a single failure with titebond. I must have glued up at least a hundred + lam bows with it.
I always recommend getting the data sheet that every glue has (ask the manufacturer) and then follow it to the letter.
Tattoo Dave - using titebond isn't the reason for a bad glueline. The gluelines are one of my favourite things about titebond - you can't see them at all when done right.
+1. Not one single glue failure with TB3 on hundreds of bows.
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I would lean towards one of the pieces being cupped and the surfaces not contacting fully. URAC will hold that gap, TB3 wont.
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Or the glue not totally cured out before you stressed it. These glues are water based and that moisture gets drawn into the wood, even osage. I like to give a glue up plenty of time to cure before stressing the bow.
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Titebond recommends a minimum of 24 hrs before stressing the joint. I usually set aside a glue up for a couple of days. Longer if I have time.
Titebond is good glue, but it`s really all about the mating surfaces and even clamping. Your surfaces have to be perfect... period. And clean. It is not glue for bad prep.
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simson did post a bow that he'd added a bamboo backing to with TB and the glueline was terrible by his own admission. I wonder if it's still holding up?
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The thing I dislike about titebond is that you get glueline creep. Since switching to EA-40, I have not had a problem. That glue is made for bows.
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Sleek, I've never used west system epoxy.
Mike, I know it's not the glues fault. Like I said, may be my clamping methods or other issues. My point being the epoxies just seem to be more forgiving, due to the gap filling benefits, that titebond can't do.
Tattoo Dave
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What is glue line creep?
Im letting this bow sit for a few days. Will work it again thursday night. Should be plenty dry by then if I glued it last night. Right?
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Creep is when the glue is not solid enough to not allow the materials to move under pressure or contraction expansion of the glued surfaces.
The materials drift without actually becoming detached.
For a while many guys were adamantly saying that TB3 did not creep but nearly all of them have changed their tune.
You will particularly note it in riser and fade areas.
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Well that explains it. I have a glued on handle that at the fade isnt a smooth transition anymore.
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That's the classic sign. The slight ripple in a formerly smooth fade transition of two woods.
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Soooooooo epoxy it is then? Or what other options are there?
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Smooth On till the day I die...
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Honestly it's not the glue it's preparation.....If a bamboo backing is prepared well and TB3 is used correctly they will not delaminate.
As mentioned above resourcinol is a fantastic glue. IF you can't get perfect surfaces then resourcinol's extra strength MAY help you but it also isn't really a gap filling glue. The problem with using a gap filling epoxy is it almost encourages you to be lazy with prep.
I'll say it again - get the data sheet that every glue has. One email to the manufacturer.
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I got it to brace just now and its holding. Guess I just didnt let it dry enough last time?
Now its wanting to twist on me. In an elb style and im only going for 45# on it. Its 1 1/8" wide at the handle. As I was measuring I see now the belly and the back aren't perfectly parallel to eachother. I feel like such a noob....
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I feel like such a noob....
That's just the bow gods smackin' you back a bit. >:D
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They may not be done yet. Because the bow is now warped. The limb tips have aligned off center and the bow now bends in two directions. The normal way where the back stretches and belly compresses and now one side is stretching and the opposite side is compressing. How to fix?
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After exercising the bow a few times it has improved. The string is still towards one side of the handle but at least it is almost touching it. I imagine when drawn it straightens out. Gonna exercise it more at finish it up. Its 65.5" long btwand I glued in 1.5" reflex. After unstringing it has .5" string follow and send ttles back to perfectly flat. Not bad for boo backed hickory elb...
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You could use side notch to help with alinement .
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I discovered I can press the bow sideways agaisnt the floor as if im floor tillering it to get good tip alignment. I got to shoot the bow today. It dont look like much but man its snappy and I am surgical with it. I think im gonna try some pinpoint candle flame snuffing...
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I would lean towards one of the pieces being cupped and the surfaces not contacting fully. URAC will hold that gap, TB3 wont.
This is it. Bamboo backs are crowned and TB II has enough water in it that the bamboo can absor someand the edges will lift. This is why I always use rubber innertube clamps when putting on a bamboo backing, and lots of them. AND, I Like the bamboo to be about as wide as the wood, so the edges really hold dow,
I had the same problem you did, when I used C-clamps all along.
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AH HA!
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Glad to help. I have screwed up bows, so many ways, I am a weath of knowledge on what won't work! Ha!