Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: arachnid on December 12, 2014, 04:58:38 am
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Hi guys...
So I started a tri-lam reflexed longbow this week, floor tillering and long string tillering
went well. Then I wanted to string it on low brace and ... KABOOM!!!!..... that thing exploded on the tiller. >:( :'(
I `m not sure what went wrong, did I try to brace it too early or was it a grain run-off on the back (I thought white oak is tough enough to handle one run-off...).
Can you tell from the picture? (BTW, the bow it white oak backed ipe with walnut core)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kVUgT9pdSd3ucMzKnbeUjtYYkNrhzlXM2ka7k6pRG_U=w415-h553-no)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-UeznJgyZq7Y/VIqZF9AEVzI/AAAAAAAAEC4/-W3zYTQ-JQA/w415-h553-no/20141212_091406.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Kg7jCDRUWcs/VIqaAG4QREI/AAAAAAAAEDE/F5t3S9kZv2w/w415-h553-no/20141212_091424.jpg)
I think I`ll stick with straight pyramids for now.... too many reflexed bows broke on the tiller lately and I don`t think the
faw extra FPS is worth the it.....
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You answered Your own question on the grain runoff. Bob
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No expert on board /lam bows but looks like more than a little run off to me. :) Sorry
Pappy
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Well I guess I'll have to pay more attention when choosing a board next time...
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It's not the reflex that got you, it was the grain run off.
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Too much grain run off. The grain runs at an angle, from upper left to lower right corner. More than one ring is running off.
To add to that, the back is also not smooth. I can see circular saw marks still present on the back. That's not good. Although you did round the corners nicely, the back needs to be smooth as well. Those saw marks basically create tiny ridges for a splinter to lift.
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It looks like it started at a knot that was a little too close to the edge. That combined with the grain runoff was too much. That can't be "it" for you!! If you aren't breaking one now and then you just aren't a bowyer. Get back on that horse! :D
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Yeah, just think how much you've learned from this bow and apply that new knowledge to your future bows......definitely don't quit now. You're a better bowyer for the failure. I always learn more from the bows that fail.
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Never said I'm going to quit!
I'm too hooked with bowmaking...what I meant is I'm sticking with stright flatbows for now (I have more luck and experience with them). It's pretty annoying to have a bow explode because of a grain runoff. Thats like the ABC of bow making and I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how I missed it.
BUT, since you guys encouraged me like you did, I'll just concentrat my searches in finding better boards. That board was given to me for free, so I guess it's sometimes better to pay for good stuff the get #$@%¤ stuff with no charge...
One thing is certain- The lesson is learned.
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Never said I'm going to quit!
I'm too hooked with bowmaking...what I meant is I'm sticking with stright flatbows for now (I have more luck and experience with them). It's pretty annoying to have a bow explode because of a grain runoff. That like the ABC of bow making and I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how I missed it.
BUT, since you guys encouraged me like you did, I'll just concentrat my searches in finding better boards. That board was given to me for free, so I guess it's sometimes better to pay for good stuff the get #$@%¤ stuff with no charge...
One thing is certain- The lesson is learned.
Amen. Gotta ask yourself what your time involved will be worth.
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Pyramid, longbow, recurve , reflexed, deflexed everything needs straight grain on a backing strip.
I too have learnt the hard way ;)
One tip when looking for a good enough board. Concentrate on flat sawn boards - they are way easier to 'read'.
If it is thick enough you get to cut the backings quarter sawn. If not - it doesn't matter anyway!
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Pyramid, longbow, recurve , reflexed, deflexed everything needs straight grain on a backing strip.
I too have learnt the hard way ;)
One tip when looking for a good enough board. Concentrate on flat sawn boards - they are way easier to 'read'.
If it is thick enough you get to cut the backings quarter sawn. If not - it doesn't matter anyway!
Nice tip. Thanks.
If the grain is straight on the outrr edge, is it certain that it'll be straight "inside" the board (when ripped)?
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Choosing boards is really about eyeballing them from all four sides. On a flat sawn board the 'flat' faces may look bad at first glance BUT the sides are then very easy to read. If the sides are straight lines you've got a good one. The flat sawn face unless from a PERFECT straight tree cut parallel to the surface will have a few islands etc.
It's hard to describe this sort of thing in words.....a picture speaks a thousand words and all that!
Maybe somebody else can describe what i'm trying to say better ;D
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I got it.
What I was wondering is- when I start ripping the board from the side, is it certain that as I go "deeper" ,to the width of the flat side, the grain will remain straight on the quarter sawn side?
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Look at all four sides and if there is runoff somewhere you will start to see v's on an edge. If all four sides show parallel lines the full length of the board with no v's on the edges then yes the grain will remain straight.
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Arachnid, there's more on my site.
There are 3 types of board cuts which are identified by looking at the butt side. There are plain or flat sawn (=), 1/4 or edge ringed sawn (||), and rift or bias (//).
With plane and rift look at the face of the board. The grain lines ideally should be straight tip to tip. With these cuts the edge grain should reflect what the face is doing. Those perfect boards are rare. I allow to run outs per limb depending on the target weight I want. That's for a selfbow. I never did a composite bow.
With 1/4 sawn look at the edge grain and it must be straight tip to tip.
Jawge
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I can see circular saw marks still present on the back.
I'm not seeing what you are seeing, DarkSoul. Arachnid, is he right? Because that would be a recipe for failure.
I have heard a lot of confusion about quarter sawn backings in general. I have had people assert on web forums that all backings have to be QS, and sime people just don't get the concept of radial grain vs growth rings. No matter the wood, the grain needs to run straight in both directions.
Imagine if the board you wanted to take backings from was a 4x4. If you went to split it with a big knife, it would split full length, no matter how you oriented the knife. You could set it across one way, and it would split basically into two 2x4's. You could turn the knife 90 degrees and it would split basically into two 2x4's. You could set the wedge corner to corner, and split it into two triangle section halves, or turn it 90 again and do the same thing. If it won't, it isn't suitable for backings. So you have to translate that to other board sizes.
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I have to say that I'm almost glad that bow broke. I thought I knew how to select a board (I have about 8 bows on my rack.... not much but I'm know a thing or two) but I guess there's always stuff to learn.
George- I've read the info in your site about a year ago. Can you explain why you allow 2 runoffs per limb in flat/rift sawn but not in 1/4 sawn?
Springbuck- That good info. I allways looked for 1/4 board for backing and might have overlooked other types.
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Arachnid,
I've not had good luck with 1/4 sawn so I prefer the perfect board with no run outs as viewed from the edge grain on that cut. Ring lines can be parallel on the face and still be way off on the edge for 1/4.
I find the others easier to read and the 2 per limb run out max for 50-55# usually yields a not to steep angle of violation which is good.
Jawge
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Thanks George.
There's something I still don't get- I've read in on place that if a flat sawn board has V shapes on the face side and there clustered closely together, that's good. Any explanation?
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Arachnid, if you read my post above George's about splitting the 4x4, it kind of answers that question. What George is saying about quarter sawn wood, either boards or backings, is that on the face the ring lines lines can be perfect, (parallel, straight, and run full length), but viewed from the skinny edge, the radial grain can be doing whatever the heck it wants, and you probably won't be able to tell. You often get pretty sharp run-offs back to front that way.
I've even had BELLY slats of QS osage, bulletwood, or goncalo alves fail because the grain ran back to front at really high angles, and I couldn't see it. A backing, just like a board-stave, can be any growth ring orientation, but the grain has to run straight on the face no matter what.
So, if you mean that on a flat sawn board there are lots of V's close together, with their points running out, then no, that isn't good. That means the board was flat sawn at an angle, or from a curved, tapered, or lopsided log.
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I broke my share mostly because of haste. Nothing ventured nothing gained just keep plugging away it will come to you. And sometimes it is the woods fault so don't sweat it.
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I agree with Springbuck. I'm thinking that when the v's are present toward one end that's caused by the taper of the tree itself?
What do you all think?
Jawge
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As I said above v's indicate cut through fibers.
You can get into the technicalities of choosing boards but to begin with but just keep repeating to yourself 'straight lines on all four sides'.....repat this over and over again until it sinks in. DO NOT buy anything else unless you like heartbreak! I used to think oh I can get away with this...bows can make it past tillering and blow down the line because there were cut through fibers....now that really is a pain in the .... ;)
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As I said above v's indicate cut through fibers.
You can get into the technicalities of choosing boards but to begin with but just keep repeating to yourself 'straight lines on all four sides'.....repat this over and over again until it sinks in. DO NOT buy anything else unless you like heartbreak! I used to think oh I can get away with this...bows can make it past tillering and blow down the line because there were cut through fibers....now that really is a pain in the .... ;)
I too had times I thought I can get away with less-then-perfect grain. I guess it happens to everyone...
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Time Baker in TBB2 P 40 agrees Mike. Jawge
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Thanks a lot for the info guys.
I was wondering, does adding a backing (like rawhide or brown paper)
helps for so-so grain boards? Can it help a board with grain runoffs in the sides? on the back?
Also, if I get a flat sawn board with ring violations on the back (mostly white oak), is chasing a ring on the back (and re-establishing the back ring) does anything? Can I chase a ring and go on to build a board bow without backing?
I`ve been looking for perfect boards for some time now with no luck...
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I know finding a good board is not easy!hickory is darn tough stuff and I have made descent bows out of it with less than perfect grain.from what I've seen you have to see the bow in the bow,less than perfect grain in the stiff handle area and the tips can be doable.i ment bow in the board!lol!
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yes the rawhide will help
dont strain the bow to much when on long string or tiller tree
make a lighter poundage bow(and wider) if the grain is iffy
main thing keep trying
where do you live,, maybe someone could send you a board, you said where you live I missed it
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I live in Israel. I get most of my bow wood from carpenters and lumber yards around me. Problem is, as I said, for some time I wasn't able to find any perfect boards.
How about ring chasing a flat sawn board? I don't mind the extra work if it's worth it...
BTW, is 40-45# considered a light weight bow?
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Yes you can get a flat sawn board and then chase a ring - no problem. In fact that would be a great way to learn about reading grain in a flat board face and seeing how that corresponds to the shape of tree it came from.
45# is a nice weight. I used to shoot 65# all the time but this winter me and a mate have been shooting a serious amount of arrows (playing archery darts!) so I dropped down to 43# and it's a dream. I would call 35# and below 'light'.
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Thanks Mike.
Are there any limitations when chasing acring on a board? Can I do it on a highly violated board (with lots of V's on the back)?
My thoght on this is that if the rings are highly violated, that means that the tree was cut at a steep angle. Meaning that if I chase a ring starting from one end, I can fing myself with a very thin board at the other end.
Correct?
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get the best board you can find,, leave it longer and wider and rawhide back,, that will give you a great chance of success with intended draw,, for example you might want to go to 2 inches wide and maybe 68 or 70 in length if you can,, i would go longer if the board is iffy,, you just want to get a shooter,, you can refine and make a rocket launcher as your gain experience and get better wood,, :)
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Arachnid, you are right about the board ending up thin on one end. The cure is to look for a flat sawn board where you can see good rings, and one ring, barely exposed, running full length down the face of the board. the rest of the growth lines will run parallel on each side of the middle. I once found anred oak board like that with a SINGLE growth ring half an inch thick making up most of the board. Best oak bow ever!
BTW, I have made some pretty passable bows from tool handles. Two ash shovel handles will be top quality white or European ash, have visible growth rings, and you can tell whether the grain runs off the side with a practiced eye. That'll make a really good American longbow up to 7 feet long. Chase a ring and socket, or splice a handle and leave it thick. Same thing with hickory ax or pick handles.
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Tool handles you say? :o
That`s interesting.... Maybe I`ll give it a go. I just need to find tools with the proper bow wood handle...
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with a flatsawn board you are going to get islands, don't get these confused with grain run off, it's not the same thing, all boards have violated rings that's how they become boards and I never chased a ring on a board not saying not to, just don't have to, you have to look for grain lines running at sharp angles on all four sides, with quartersawn look for squiggles in the grain as that is a defect in the grain and will likely cause problems
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Tool handles you say? :o
That`s interesting.... Maybe I`ll give it a go. I just need to find tools with the proper bow wood handle...
Yeah, might be different in Israel. And you still have to look em over pretty close.