Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: PatM on December 15, 2014, 09:12:21 am
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I recently found an Elm tree of the most perfect straightness and knot free quality that I have ever seen. The tree did have an ominous curl to the outer twigs but when I whipped the tree back and forth it seemed flexible and nothing broke off.
When I cut it down however a large chunk of bark popped off and revealed totally brown discoloration under the bark with that layer almost composted. Despite this the few remaining fibers holding the tree still just bent completely rather than snapping.
Any chance at all of salvaging the inner portion?
I know the standard thoughts on white woods but wondered if anyone has tested to see just how things break down.
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In my area we have quite a bit of Siberian Elm. It is really tough stuff. If it is dead too long it gets punky. Unless split down quite a bit, it doesn't even burn well, only smolders and smokes. I made a hammer handle out of some, and a handle on my rasp as well. Once dry it is super hard to work. Good luck. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!
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My only experience is with hickory that had been down from a storm for several months and a standing dead osage tree that had stood for years. The hickory was toast, real chalky wood, of course it was a monster that took a lot of work to cut and split only to find out it was no good. The osage looked good but the wood was very brittle and wouldn't make a bow, again, another monster tree that took days to get home and split in 100 degree weather only to find out it was firewood.
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I will almost certainly split it up and take a better look and let some dry and do a bend test. It would be nice to have a better idea of how long the breakdown process takes but I have no way of knowing exactly when this tree died.
At least the colder temps will have suspended any breakdown I would think.
This is not a large tree so splitting it up is not going to be much of a chore even if it ends up being wasted effort.
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The only way to find out Pat is to make a bow out of it.
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I tried dead standing ash once. Didn't work out at all.
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The question is do you want to put forth the effort in a gamble,and OK with losing? Personally I wouldn't,but that's just me. I've come across stuff like that in the woods,and go dang,wish it wasn't and leave it be. There's plenty other live stuff out there with better odds in my locale,so why risk it. I never was a gambling man either. Maybe you are ;)
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Maybe it made babies nearby with common characteristics..:)
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I was just hoping for some positive feedback from anyone who might have tried a tree from a similar situation. The wood is definitely stringy and fibrous in its current state but whether it retains that as it dries is the question.
This is certainly not a standing and "seasoned" situation.
There certainly is other stuff out there, in fact there were two other almost as perfect trees within 20 yards of it.
If the tree was not the best that I've ever seen I wouldn't even consider it.
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Haha Pearlie!, not babies but probably siblings. The other two might even be clones from the root system.
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One good quality of most bowyers is persistence. Sometimes we have to let it go.
Dead trees are problems.
Jawge
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Well the tree is already down so the dice has been rolled already. I can always just pull the plug at any of the next stages.
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Ill bet a proper floor tiller will answer the question.
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An improper hingey one would probably answer it even faster. lol
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Pat, go ahead and try it. By the time you get it roughed out to drying dimensions, you'll know if it is wotrth taking further.
I work with a lot of red elm saplings, and it seems to basically attract disease. They are always leaking brown gunk, and sometimes even smell bad, like a deer's guts, or have weird things under the bark. The heartwood is softer and more vascular than other species like American elm and ash, and contains a lot of water, even when dead. In spite of this, the sapwood retains its tensile strength pretty well.
If it is a red elm specie, take the bark off, take a bow out of the best looking wood, and you should be fine. If not, you'll know before you get very far, just by the texture and feel of the wood, if it is junk.
Standing dead white wood is generally junk, but the tree may just be sick, or just doed before winter or whatever.
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The wood is definitely stringy and fibrous in its current state but whether it retains that as it dries is the question.
It will likely retain the stringiness. If it is bad, there will be TINY borer-type bugs that eat between layers of sapwood and weaken it. A couple times I have cut good, but soft, elm and let it sit too long (indoors, protected), roughed it oput and literally had it delaminate at the winter wood when half tillered. The separated surfaces were covered with tiny squiggles smaller than pencil lead where bugs had eaten it. So, rough it and dry it and either spray it or heat/steam it right away.
Or, the heartwood will just be deraded, and not have and compression strength.
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Elm is said to be very durable if kept constantly wet and the fact that this tree was actually growing out of a tiny raised lump IN water may be advantageous.
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I have cut 2 trees that were dead. One was a HHB that had been dead for many years but was hung up off the ground. Most of it was firewood but I did actually make a bow out of it that I still have. The other was an Elm that had been chopped down near a stream by some malfaisant. It had landed partially in the stream and was still trying to sprout branches. The wood actually turned out to be some of the best Elm I ever cut
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Here is one cut from the failed standing osage tree, there were 3 more similar cuts, like I said, it was a monster.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/osage%20cutting/osagelog2.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/osage%20cutting/osagelog2.jpg.html)
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Interesting that you had that experience with Osage. If it is cut and left for years it seems to fare better than if it just dies.
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Osage and BL are different. They may be used if standing dead.
Have fun, PatM.
Jawge
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IMO Eric's experience is in a teeny tiny itsy bitsy minority...myself and whole lot of others have used standing dead and downed osage with just as good a success as live cut wood. And IMHO discussing standing dead or downed osage is irrelevant here. Not even in the same ballpark.
We have a lot of elm in my area...but its a disease prone tree here,and not too many make it past 8" diameter..not saying there isn't any that don't,but more so die off than before they reach a more mature status. And here once its dead or down it rots and detiorates very quickly.
Are you going to try and use the outermost ring(ring under the bark)? Or chase down a couple rings to better your odds of having good useable wood?
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More than likely I was going to sinew the wood so I would just decrown it . Have to go back and check the ring size and see if ring chasing is something I'd want to do.
Elm was obliterated up here too and most of it doesn't make it far but there is a database up here where they have located large trees past a certain diameter and monitor them for resistance and attempt to breed resistant varieties from them.
There is in fact one very large tree close by.
I know how prone it is to rotting but it is the fact that this tree is right on the cusp of being salvageable that is making me want to go to heroic measures. It is as straight and uniform as a PVC sewer pipe. Doesn't smell much better than one in use either. ;D
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I have made 5 or 6 from standing and fallen dead elm that the bark had fallen off. Some had been dead for 15 years. If big enough around you can go through the spongy stuff and get to decent wood, the only drawback is that it was probably dutch elm that killed it and may have bug hole bored through it to varies degrees. Other than that I have made them from dead elm into the 70lb range.
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Plenty of wonderful dead osage out there, perfect for bows, this tree was a rare exception.
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I've made a walking stick out of dead standing elm about 12 years ago. It is still very strong but it has many checks in the wood. Very small hairline cracks all up and down the stick. It was fine for the first four years and then it began to crack.
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I'd made a mini scaled down bow. About 16 inches long. You'll be able to dry a small piece in no time at all. I pretty much always do this with any new species/questionable wood.
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+1 Made a bow from some elm that had been standing dead and had signs of dutch elm disease (bug marks and discoloration below bark). Cleaned off about 4 rings from the surface and made a good bow out of it. Also gave myself some confidence that it would be OK by making an 18" mini bow from it first.
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Gaining confidence that this piece is salvageable. Thanks all for sharing your experiences.
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Finally retrieved this piece of wood and peeled the bark off to take a better look. The outside of the actual wood is basically in three separate states right now. One side looks pretty normal and the others are in various stages of degradation. I took a hatchet and chopped off the outside of the worst looking side and just a few rings down the wood appears fine and sweet smelling again.
So I think with some decrowning or ring chasing it should be salvageable.
Here's some pics: This is the good side (http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp78/pat_05/IMG_2321_zpsg9nztua0.jpg)
The transition between the good side and where the discoloration starts:
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp78/pat_05/IMG_2320_zpsxf81gstr.jpg)
And the outside chopped away to sound looking wood:
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp78/pat_05/IMG_2319_zps379nvcba.jpg)
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I work elm a LOT, as much as all other woods combined. I also vote to try it, but I will say that elm seems to lose it's hardness long before it looses it's toughness as it decomposes. Like, I mean I have seen it completely useless, but it would fold instead of breaking.
Another thing is that elm actually seems to always be full of stuff that eats it. I have cut, roughed out, and left bowstaves of red and American elm in my garage, dry and clean over a couple months, and then had TINY grubs drill TINY holes all through it when I debarked it. In fact, even barked staves succumb if I leave it long enough. Pick it up, tap one end on the floor, and a cloud of fine wooddust (and beetlegrub poop) shakes out.
I bet money it's infected with those, because they seem to live in the bark and get active as soon as the wood dies. So before the eggs hatch or the grubs grow, rough that stuff out and spray it or heat treat it to kill em. I have actually shot in a bow once, left it a few weeks before final heat treating or sanding and finishing, and come back to have it literally delaminate between the summer rings. ALL the winter growth had been eaten by bugs, and the separated layers were covered with tiny squiggles.
Anyway, point is, it's all about how far gone the tree was, but jump on some preventative measures while drying it, then see what you got. Straight, healthy, knot free elm is a joy to work with.
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My first bow attempt was a dead HHB a
Lying 6" off the ground. The outermost most layers looked exactly like that elm. My first bow failed of course, I tried to use the outer ring.I But I saved the other half of the log too see if I could make it work with more experience. A few years later I removed the outer, rotten wood, rawhide backed it, and got a 55# 60" bendy shooting for about 50 shots, but then I noticed it had started chrysalling at a concentration of grub holes near the bottom limb. I'd say that that might be the biggest problem. I would be judicious with limb patches if a lot of grub holes start popping up.
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There is no trace of bugs in this wood. I'm not resorting to heroic measures with this wood though Just trying to salvage some of the perfection.