Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: HoorayHorace on December 31, 2014, 11:16:45 am
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I found a stave I could have for not too much money and it comes from the East Coast. ;)
It looks nice and clean, apart from a few pin knots, but the other thing is, this stave has got about 2 inches of deflex, other than that it is real straight and nice. :)
Question being, is making a bow with some natural set going to make a bad bow, and how easy is it to get this deflex out? I read up on the Wooddatabase that yew is easy to bend with steam, but I have zero specialist equipment to do it.
Could trying to straighten up the stave ruin it?
Any and all advice here would be helpful!! ;)
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You could look up marc st Louis 's localized steaming method,all you need is heat gun.East coast yew?
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West Coast, my bad. ;)
Steam bending with a heat gun?
I am right in guessing that it is best to rough out the bow blank first and then steam bend, or just do the whole stave?
:)
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Yes,heat gun,tinfoil,wet cloth,clamps and a caul.Rough out your stave to a blank first,sometimes wood likes to move a bit when being liberated!lol!besides steam bending a whole stave would do more harm than good imho.
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You could leave some localised deflex in the middle and steam (or dry heat) a nice long gentle recurve into each limb. Ideal bow
The benefit is you don't bust a gut trying to bend the thick handle section! :)
Del
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I was going to suggest keeping the deflex in the middle too...maybe something like this one:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=43428.0
(one of my favorite bows on this site!)
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I just want to get it straight before tillering so I don't end up with a ton of set.
it s gonna be an ELB. ;)
it is nice wood other than the deflex though. don't want to break it by doing something wrong. :-\
is there an easy to understand tutorial anywhere? :)
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when the bow is roughed out, you can heat it,,, and gently bend it with a clamp,,, if the wood is hot enough it will bend for you,, just take it easy and maybe heat a few times and bend until you get the hang of it,, you can steam that part over water or use a heat gun as suggested,, many ways to do it,, just take your time and dont force the wood,, if the deflex is in the middle,, put the long string on it backward and heat until you can bend it straight,, please dont tell anyone,, but I use a butane torch if all else fails and have bent them straight using an open fire,, I am pretty sure I invented the open fire method :):):)
yes you can damage the wood it you are too aggressive ,,, but if you are gentle it should be ok,,
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Set and deflex are completely different things. Deflex won't hurt you too much and has the benefit of being smoother drawing in most designs. Modern bows all have deflex out of the handle that recurve or reflex toward the end. So that's what I would do, recurve the tips or make it gradually reflex from midlimb.
Design the bow around the stave.
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Watch that dry heat, Yew does not like to be too dry. :)
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Set and deflex are completely different things. Deflex won't hurt you too much and has the benefit of being smoother drawing in most designs. Modern bows all have deflex out of the handle that recurve or reflex toward the end. So that's what I would do, recurve the tips or make it gradually reflex from midlimb.
Design the bow around the stave.
Thanks for all the helpful replies.
It also shows how ignorant I am as I thought set and deflex were the same thing. Would you mind explain the difference? So a little bit of deflex is not a bad thing and could still make a good bow?
I like the idea of recurved tips, but I have seen that ELB's did not have any recurve.
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A deflexed yew stave? Never seen that before! ;)
boil in some recurves, it'll be a sweet shooting bow if done right
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Deflex is when it is bending towards you right? Imagine the stave as a string on it with a 1 inch brace. That is what it looks like.
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Deflex is when it is bending towards you right? Imagine the stave as a string on it with a 1 inch brace. That is what it looks like.
Yeah, that's what deflex is. Set is how the wood is damaged after unstringing. So if you have that same bow that started off with 1" of deflex, after tillering and unstringing it has 3" of deflex. That would mean the "set" is 2". If it started with 3" of reflex and comes out straight when unstrung it has 3" of set, not no set.
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So the deflex needs to go before tillering even began?
I understand deflex makes for a bad bow and reflex makes for a faster bow?
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You could leave some localised deflex in the middle and steam (or dry heat) a nice long gentle recurve into each limb. Ideal bow
The benefit is you don't bust a gut trying to bend the thick handle section! :)
Del
this is what I would do. I know you wanted to get a an ELB out of the stave but one of the realities of making self bows is that sometimes you have to do what the stave is telling you. It's not to say that you can't make an ELB out of that deflexed stave but I think that deflex will be fighting you the whole way. It won't want to stay gone, even if you manage to straighten it out. I would do like Del says and make a nice deflex/reflex, it will be a sweet bow.
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77 inches of yew is too much wood to waste for a reflex/deflex bow
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It's all one big challenging business this bow making, but I like it.
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I've never - and I mean never - had any luck heating deflex out of a yew stave. It always comes back once you start bending it. A very small area is fine, as you can use steam or dry heat and pop the deflex out quite easily, but if the stave is deflexed all over, or it's a long gentle curve somewhere you need to think of a different approach to getting a good bow.
Not all yew is good for a classic English longbow. Wood is wood, and it's always different. You learn pretty quickly when you make self bows that you really can't force a bow design onto a piece of wood - you HAVE to let the wood dictate what happens. If your stave has lots of deflex, you'll need to accept that and work with it.
The risk is using steam or dry heat and cranking the deflex out, only to have it either break on you because it's been over-stressed the wrong way or the amount of heat required was too much (easy mistake when you're just starting out!) or to have all the deflex come straight back the minute it's on the tiller, only to find that you've roughed out the bow too close to final dimensions to get anything else out of it. The last thing you want is to have a deflexed yew stave with no extra thickness at the tips for initial recurving, and you'll just end up with a deflexed longbow. Not good.
Some deflex is fine, but it will get worse as you tiller (depending how experienced you are, it could get a lot worse!) and you'll never be happy with it afterwards.
Like you said, 77 inches of yew is too good to waste - so don't waste it by chasing a design that doesn't work. Make a stunning deflex/reflex bow that hits hard and looks perfect, and wait until you find a more suitable piece of yew for a longbow.
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I've never - and I mean never - had any luck heating deflex out of a yew stave. It always comes back once you start bending it. A very small area is fine, as you can use steam or dry heat and pop the deflex out quite easily, but if the stave is deflexed all over, or it's a long gentle curve somewhere you need to think of a different approach to getting a good bow.
Not all yew is good for a classic English longbow. Wood is wood, and it's always different. You learn pretty quickly when you make self bows that you really can't force a bow design onto a piece of wood - you HAVE to let the wood dictate what happens. If your stave has lots of deflex, you'll need to accept that and work with it.
The risk is using steam or dry heat and cranking the deflex out, only to have it either break on you because it's been over-stressed the wrong way or the amount of heat required was too much (easy mistake when you're just starting out!) or to have all the deflex come straight back the minute it's on the tiller, only to find that you've roughed out the bow too close to final dimensions to get anything else out of it. The last thing you want is to have a deflexed yew stave with no extra thickness at the tips for initial recurving, and you'll just end up with a deflexed longbow. Not good.
Some deflex is fine, but it will get worse as you tiller (depending how experienced you are, it could get a lot worse!) and you'll never be happy with it afterwards.
Like you said, 77 inches of yew is too good to waste - so don't waste it by chasing a design that doesn't work. Make a stunning deflex/reflex bow that hits hard and looks perfect, and wait until you find a more suitable piece of yew for a longbow.
Thank you WillS. Part of me does think that wood would be hard to make lasting changes.
So you are suggesting that I should leave in the deflex and recurve the tips?
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I've got zero experience in recurve bows, so I'd suggest reading what the others have said and following their advice. I just know from plenty of (painful) experience that trying to fit an ideal bow into an stave suitable for something else never works out properly.
You may well get the deflex out, and you may well be able to keep it out. I've never been able to do it, and I guess the question to ask yourself is whether you want to learn how to use heat and steam and bending on what would appear to be a fairly expensive and special piece of yew, or whether you want to use that piece of wood to make the best bow possible.
P.S. If you're buying a stave on eBay from BurlQuilt (Medicine Bow Woods) be very, very careful. It's usually a load of rubbish, and won't be seasoned anywhere near the length he says it is. If you're getting it from somebody else, ignore the above and crack on :)
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I didn't get it from the guy you mention on ebay. He wants like 400 large for a fresh cut bit of wood, and each piece looks like it's been dragged through a hedge or something. :o
My only real interest/experience is longbows after getting a replica medieval arrow a few years back. No rush. Will have to ponder it.
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I know the feeling. It's all I'm interested in as well :)
One option is to leave it - there's always yew around, and perhaps spending money on a stave not suited to longbows is a bad move? Hang onto the cash, add a bit here and there and soon you may be able to spend a bit more on a perfect longbow stave?
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From looking carefully, the limbs are straight but the bend is in the handle/mid section.
When it comes to traditional archery for me, it is all about longbows and nothing else. I can only draw around 80 pounds right now.
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i have not worked with yew,,, but in the other woods I have worked with ,, trying to take out deflex in a working part of the limb is very difficult,, but in the non working tip,, or handle section it can be done ..
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Have you already got the stave, your set on an elb mabe if it's a quality stave you can trade it for a more suitable stave for your build
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i just worked a yew stave recently, had about 2.5" of deflex over 68". i cooked it for well over an hour on my 4"reflex caul and it kept about 2.5" of reflex.
i thought i nailed it, but after tillering and shooting, took about 3" of set. the tips are behind the handle about 1/2" all said and done. its a very nice shooting bow
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I've found that with some Yew just heat bending may not be enough, but heat bending and heat treating the belly combined will hold position much better.
@Wizardgoat....
Not sure I understand how "The tips are 1/2" behind the handle" (not quite sure what that means) equates to 3" of set?
To me that sounds like you have (over all) gone from 2.5" of deflex to 0.5"... which is minus 2" of set.
Del
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Ive tried to fight deflex out of yew before, its not easily done and it seems to go almost back to where it started. With yew, I prefer to build the bow around the stave rather than trying to conform the stave to my ideas. Working on a yew R/D now actually. The "D" is staying put. Here are before and after pics. Pretty easy manipulation with only half the limb needing moved.
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That's a great shape Pearlie :)
Del
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Good god that's a pretty bow.
I think I need a minute...
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very nice, how much of the reflex do you think will stay in,,, lookin great
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Ive tried to fight deflex out of yew before, its not easily done and it seems to go almost back to where it started. With yew, I prefer to build the bow around the stave rather than trying to conform the stave to my ideas. Working on a yew R/D now actually. The "D" is staying put. Here are before and after pics. Pretty easy manipulation with only half the limb needing moved.
That is very nice :) How did you flip the ends like that? Was it a hard process?
I saw a vid on the net where a bowyer made a yew longbow with some recurve at the tips. Looked nice. The bowyer though some bows on the MR had recurve at the tips.
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Ah the old "Weapons That Made Britain" video again...!
Don't take what Mike Loades says too seriously ;) Even Chris Boyton (the bowyer) wasn't particularly keen on doing it.
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@Will, yeah that was the video, watched it a while back on youtube :)
Save starting a whole new thread, I have a question that is bugging me regarding selfbows.
When making up a laminate, the stave is 100 percent straight, so I can draw the string like straight down the physical centre by attaching string to each end of the stave.
I have seen self bow staves where the end kicks off some, or it is no way straight enough to attach string from end to end. How do bowyers get the string line on staves like that? :)
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You study the stave and lay out the bow in a way that will give a decent stringline, or one which can be achieved with minimum work.
It's prudent to also leave a little extra width at the tips for adjustment of stringline until the bow is draw back in a stable manner.
Del
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Thanks del. I also read your blog and the link you sent me. ;)
Some real nice work there too, and I like how you sorted that dip in the end of the stave. That stave had more deflex that the one I might get, and you pulled it off nicely. :D
Nice to see craftsmanship still alive and well! :)
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very nice, how much of the reflex do you think will stay in,,, lookin great
Brad Ill be upset if I lose more than 2" at the tips. The first half of the limb off the handle wont budge, Im quite sure of that.