Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Drewster on February 25, 2015, 03:40:23 pm
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A friend of mine gave me this Osage stave and thought I might like a challenge. And since this is my second Osage bow, it has indeed been a challenge. Here's the stave after I had removed the bark and sapwood and was in the process of chasing a ring for the back.
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/BigOssie-3_zps3708aadd.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/BigOssie-3_zps3708aadd.jpg.html)
The only way to get a bow out of this stave was to cut it in half, flip it end for end and splice the handle together. Here's the bow after roughing out the profile this morning. The left side has about 25° of propeller twist but the right limb is what I need help with at the moment. The limbs are about 1" thick. If I don't have to reduce the length, this bow should finish out at 66" ntn.
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie%20Help-4_zpsqx3jzlqp.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie%20Help-4_zpsqx3jzlqp.jpg.html)
And some close-ups of the tip. Big growth rings in this stave.
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie%20Help-3_zpshdwhg6lf.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie%20Help-3_zpshdwhg6lf.jpg.html)
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie%20Help-2_zpsgtnlgf40.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie%20Help-2_zpsgtnlgf40.jpg.html)
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie%20Help_zps86rfdimu.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie%20Help_zps86rfdimu.jpg.html)
Since one tip is almost flipped, I'd like to flip the tips on this bow. Should this be done after floor tillering?
How do I deal with this double curve? I have flipped the tips on a couple of bows, but nothing with this kind of curved end to deal with. What radius form should I build? How thin should I make the tips before trying to flip them? 1/2" and leave them 1" wide or more? I plan to use dry heat. Does the belly need to be a single growth ring?
Any step by step help would be appreciated for sure.
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I'm not sure that's Osage I've never seen one so light in color, and the end growth rings in the last pic don't look like osage to me? Looks more like hackberry..maybe mulberry?
E
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It is absolutely Osage. With the lights in my shop, my camera didn't do a good job depicting the color today.
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Id leave the kink as is, I wouldn't try to move that. Then Id flip the other end to an equal amount, not necessarily matching shape. Id get it somewhat floor tillered first, just so your not trying to bend waste wood.
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Anything you do to "correct" that stave, had better be done after thinning it as far as you dare. You could recurve the tips or whatever, but with that flip-dee-doo at the end, you have a job ahead.
I'd thin the heck out of it, maybe even chasing a ring on the belly, and flip it right where it already wants to by just straightening the tip. That'll make an angular semi-recurve. I'd leave it wide as you can and try to get the limbs to 1/2" thick or a tad more at the tips before doing this. I'd also clamp some of the twist out of the other limb and heat treat the belly (once thinned) to make things less complicated.
Cool as heck stave, though.
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Any other thoughts on how to deal with this stave?
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I would cut that inch or so off of that tip where it flattens back out. If you did it would look like a perfectly flipped tip. I'd cut the other one off and flip it to match. That's what I would do if I was working that stave. Of course I only have a 24" draw length so there would still be plenty of length left.
What kind of draw length are you wanting from it?
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Honestly, I'd have no problem reducing the stave to rough dimensions then correcting the right tip to a nice evn flip. Probably use steam to make sure I got a good bend on it. Then turn it around and do the left tip to match. A little steam work and that stave is gonna look top notch.
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I have a 29 1/2" draw, so was trying to leave it as long as I could. With 1 5/8" wide limbs, could I get that draw with a 64" Osage bow?
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Honestly, I'd have no problem reducing the stave to rough dimensions then correcting the right tip to a nice evn flip. Probably use steam to make sure I got a good bend on it. Then turn it around and do the left tip to match. A little steam work and that stave is gonna look top notch.
Stringman, you would use steam instead of dry heat in this sitution?
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Yes. I've used both to great effect on osage, but with this specific situation you will have trouble trying to get the short tip to cooperate and bend to fit any kind of radius. That's why I would try steam to give yourself the best chance to have a successful bend. If you can make the right tip line out into a gentle flip then copy it on the other side, you should have no problem reaching a 29" draw with this stave. Think flipped, not statics.
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Thanks very much Scott......big help!!!
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Sounds like the got your Bending problems squared away. The only thing I could add is that with rings that thick be careful about making it too thin unless you are tillering. I've had some experience with huge ring Osage. They tend to be softer. Meaning that with the thick rings it will take more thickness to hit your weight. I have one going right now with similar size rings that is almost an inch thick in the fades and about 3/4 towards the tips. It is almost floor tillered. It's not as wide as yours but the thick rings just seam to be softer. Also when I have removed prop twist from thick ring stuff I've had it Crack along the liner grains a little. Always in the center and not anything that would hurt the bow. I found that if I can remove the twist in a longer section I didn't have the cracking problems. Hope this helps you a bit and like I said that's been my experience with the thick ring Osage. Patrick
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Patrick, valuable info that will help me out for sure. Thank you! This stave is definitely exposing me to some new learning curves. Really appreciate everyone's help.
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Your welcome buddy! I like the thick ring stuff. It makes a nice little bow. Just seams to want to be a little thicker when it starts to bend. Can't wait to see your progress! That one should be sweet looking!
By the way, you should have no problem hitting your draw length if you cut the little cruk of the end like Osage said. Patrick
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Looks like you have a fine bow in the works and have a couple of options for the right tip...leave it or try to straighten, I think you could make either work. I would leave it. That funky tip reminds me of a hybrid glass bow a bowyer was making years ago. It was really a recurve, but had that deflex at the end so the string didn't touch the limb and could be shot in the longbow class. I forget his name, but I think he broke away from his dad in the bow business and went out on his own. I think he was from pa.
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Stringman is right. I'd boil or steam it to bend it.
.I still say reduce it all you can, but make yourself a good form and maybe figure a way to steam it, clamp it and cinch it up. Then return it to the steam and let it relax, then cinch it. Osage likes to bend nicely when warmed up well, despite it's hardness and toughness, in my small experience. If it's not too thick it'll go like rubber.
I have best success dry heat treating in the form once the steam bending is accomplished. I always do big bends with wet heat.
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With all the great help from you experienced Osage bowyers, I felt more confident to proceed with this bow. SO, I did some floor tillering and thinned the tips down getting them ready to flip. I needed to get the propeller twist out first, so here my set-up for that process. The darker orange area in the center of the limb is oiled so the wood wouldn't scorch. That is also the area that was twisted.
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie%20Propeller%20Twist%20Setup_zpsicow2lta.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie%20Propeller%20Twist%20Setup_zpsicow2lta.jpg.html)
And, it looks like it worked pretty well. I have a little crook in the near limb, but I'm pretty sure that will not be an issue when I do a final trim of the limb width and taper it for the tip.
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie%20Propeller%20Twist%20Gone_zpsneovyyzc.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie%20Propeller%20Twist%20Gone_zpsneovyyzc.jpg.html)
I have the tips a fairly uniform 9/16". Is that thin enough to steam and bend the tips?
Form building time.
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I'm not really sure about the 9/16th part. Sounds a little thick but that's the part I always screw up on. I tend to bend them when I'm ready to. I did learn the hard way to get them to one ring on the belly with an even thickness. Not much help but someone else may have better advice.
Looks like you are heading towards an awesome little bow though! Patrick
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Drew,
You’re doing a great job with that stick – slow and patient. Nice work correcting that twist on the first try, too.
From the picture of your limb clamping setup, it looks like you applied heat to the "back" of your bow. You could achieve the same results by heating the “belly” side, with less chance of damaging the limb integrity (possibility of longitudinal cracks and/or scorching - even with the oil). Also, most of the surface coloration (burnt wood) would be removed during the tillering.
I’m making this suggestion because the crook in the same limb will require a longer duration of heat if you decide to straighten that section.
It looks like it’s going to be a jam-up shooter you’ll be proud of…good luck!
H
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That is some mighty fat ringed stuff. Must have had good water.
You can definitely get 29 1/2 out of 64". I have gotten 29 out of 62" on a number of occasions. I know what the safe ratio is : draw length x 2 plus 10%, but THIS IS OSAGE wer'e talking about. I like Clints idea about trimming the one tip down and then matching the other. Its called taking what the stave is given ya. You'll be alright. Looks like you got the splice work done pretty well, good job. If you still have 9/16 thickness theres some more meat can come off the bone.
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Anybody see the lunar rings on that first page? >:D
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Yep. I'm not 100% sold on the notion that they're attributed to any interaction with the moon though.
I have never once put oil on a stave to make heat corrections, and generally have no discoloration either. I heat all the way around the stave and move fast enough and/or maintain enough distance to eliminate any chance of scorching.
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NonBacked, thanks for your feedback. That is the back that's up. The handle is clamped in the vise so you can't see it. I heated the top and bottom of that section I needed to twist. I wanted it heated completely through to minimize any chance of cracking. It seems to have worked this time. I'm pretty sure I can clean up the limb profile without heating that crook......especially when I taper the tip.
Sidewinder, should I reduce the tips to 1/2" thick, or go a bit thinner? One bowyer suggested I taper the tips to a heavy 1" before I steam them to make it easier to control and bend. Here's a pic of the splice. I've had quite a bit of practice with doing splices recently with hickory billets.
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie%20splice_zps53uo97tc.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie%20splice_zps53uo97tc.jpg.html)
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I would say make your correction at that thickness and the reduce to floor tiller from there. It doesnt take much osage to make a hunting weight bow.
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Making some progress. I flipped the tips today. The right limb is the one that had the funky twisted end. One side of the bend has a little more radius than the other but I don't think it'll be a problem. The left limb has more reflex than I thought. I should be able to make that work too.
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie%20-%20Flipped%20Tips_zpsparbrnxf.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie%20-%20Flipped%20Tips_zpsparbrnxf.jpg.html)
Thanks again for all the suggestions and coaching.
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Looking good! That funky tip turned out nice.
If I was building this one, I would try to even things up a bit. Limb reflex and the tips. Just me though. Can't wait for the rest of the bow! Good luck, Patrick
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Patrick, would you add reflex to the right limb and re-steam the left tip? Dry heat or steam to add reflex to the right limb? Thanks for the feedback.
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I would add the reflex to the right limb just to match what you have in the left. I tend to use dry heat for reflex. As far as the tips go I would personally make them match for sure. I can't give you a stead fast reason but I've tried to leave some off a bit and ended up making them match because the tiller was wonky. I haven't tried boiling them yet but I've read that is a good way to do it . I'm planning to boil my next ones. I think steam would be a great way to get them evened up. JMHO Patrick
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After some delay due to my wife's health, I've finally been able to work on Big Ossie again. I got her floor tillered and here's an unbraced view.
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie-4_zpsz08jdye5.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie-4_zpsz08jdye5.jpg.html)
And braced at about 3". Looks like I'm stiff mid limb on the right. I think the left side is going to be my top limb. The bottom limb on the right had the natural curve and curl before I flipped the tips. It has a different profile than the left tip. The left tip isn't curved as much and I'm wondering if I should re-steam it to get it closer to the bottom tip or just not worry about it at this point?
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie-5_zpsvqmfyq4w.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie-5_zpsvqmfyq4w.jpg.html)
This pic is at 17" draw and 45#. Thanks for your advice and honest critiques.
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie-6_zpsbxuim1uk.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie-6_zpsbxuim1uk.jpg.html)
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Get the right mids bending.
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I've seen staves that I never thought would make a bow and this is one of them. I have not made a bow out of a stave yet, just a few board bows under my belt. It's nice to see some of these techniques while I'm learning. Nice job ;)
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The two limbs appear to be bending evenly. Make sure you have even arcs on both sides as you continue. You have done great work with this piece so far.
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After some weeks of delay due to medical issues with my wife, I was finally able to get back to work on
Big Ossie. At long last she's 50# @ 29" and 66" ntn. My flipped tips don't match exactly due to the natural bend and twist that the bottom limb already had. Bison tip overlays.
This bow was certainly a challenge and learning curve for me, but considering the stave I started with, I'm pretty pleased with the outcome. She's not perfect but hopefully acceptable. One bowyer told me that most people would have cut that stave up for firewood but I just seemed to want to tackle the challenge to see if I could coax a bow out of this chunk of Osage.
I appreciate all the help along the way folks. It kept giving me the confidence to push forward. So, after several months, here's Big Ossie.
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie-1_zpshivx7ent.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie-1_zpshivx7ent.jpg.html)
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie-4_zps4doxaxsr.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie-4_zps4doxaxsr.jpg.html)
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie-6_zpsegte96ln.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie-6_zpsegte96ln.jpg.html)
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie-10_zpsdi5frmu3.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie-10_zpsdi5frmu3.jpg.html)
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie-7_zpspujxjgaa.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie-7_zpspujxjgaa.jpg.html)
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie-9_zpscsyyumfj.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie-9_zpscsyyumfj.jpg.html)
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie-12_zps2xljciv3.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie-12_zps2xljciv3.jpg.html)
(http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r509/drewsumrell/Big%20Ossie-3_zpsfq9f0pts.jpg) (http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/drewsumrell/media/Big%20Ossie-3_zpsfq9f0pts.jpg.html)
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now that is a great bow! very nice profile and the tiller looks dead on, very nice work !
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Nice looking bend on that stick. Great job
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That's an awesome Bow great job. The colour of the wold is fantastic! :)
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Beautiful job. I think you nailed it.
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Drewster, Really nice work and a the bend looks great. Like your handle also...
Don
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I'm with Don for sure, a very fine bend right there sir. You are probably your own worst critic cause thats a real fine lookin bow.
rich
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That turned as a very nice bow, all my respect. Good work on a classy bow.
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Beautiful bow Drew
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Wow. Beautiful bow.
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Great work on this stave! It has proceeded well for you considering it is your second osage bow! Great shop photos as well. I'm guessing that all us osage artists have that osage colored Wagner heat gun. It should be one of our trademarks! You have a rich future of bowyering ahead of you!