Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: half eye on March 02, 2015, 10:33:17 am
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Getting bored so I made up a little hunting bow. The main reason is that Don Burchette gifted me a couple of eastern diamondback skins that come from some FULL GROWN snakes. The skin on this bow is one piece and there is enough left to make 2 more.....all from one skin.
I made this bow a little wider than usual at about 1-1/8" but did not want it too heavy. What I did was shorten the strong center section and leave the tips a little stiffer than normal. It came out right at 46/47 pounds @ 25". As you know most of my bows are circle tillered so this "bell" shape looks wierd to me, but it shoots very nicely at my hunting range, and still stayed under 50#. The bow has 3/4 inch of set.
2 sets of pics, the usual plus some close ups. See what yall think.
rich
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second set
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Excellent!
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Very nice, I love the finishing touches! What is the bow string made of? Hard to tell in the picture but it looks to me like rawhide!? Patrick
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Rich,
Gorgeous bow man, love the profile on that bend, looks fast...Skins look awesome and the buttons set it off with the mink fur...Looks like some strong medicine...Love it!
Don
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AJ, thank you
leb, just my usual artificial sinew string, rubbed over with the pitch/grease bow finish
Don, glad you like it for sure. Them are the most gorgeous skins I have seen, was real nervous about cutting it up for such a skinny bow. Think I'll take a picture of the regular one next to the bow.....them babies is huge.
rich
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Nice Rich. Reading your post I admit I was a little iffy about the skins but they look good on that bow.
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Thanks Jon, This bow is 1/3 of one skin. They are/were more than 6" wide, hell the diamonds are bigger than any of my bows are wide. May need to think about it a lot more before I get into the second one.
rich
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I love that bow rich! I have a bow going on the sidewinder build along I wanted to pick your brain for. I'll shoot ya a pm.
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Very cool, the skin is beautiful
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Thanks Falcon, I think so too.
AJ, send away bud be glad to help you if I can. My TX: (231) 587-8542 or email is rousseau.rd@att.net
rich
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Hey, Rich. I'm a bit confused by your design philosophy for this bow. You basically have no width taper, and no thickness taper. That being the case, of course the bow is doing all of its bending right in the middle. Wouldn't it be better to have some taper, and spread the bending stress over more of the mid and outer limbs?
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adb, my bow is tapered, both in width and thickness. The only difference in this one is that the center 10" is full width instead of the normal 1/3 of the bow. Also it was tillered center out and not my usual tips in. If I had made the bow the usual way I would have had to make it not as wide (for my mid 40# desire) and would have even less skin pattern.
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She's a beauty Rich! Lovely...simply lovely. The bow is lovely that it is....not all that white stuff. Josh
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Also it was tillered center out and not my usual tips in.
I don't follow. What do you mean by 'tillered center out?'
Also, if you had made it your usual way not as wide, wouldn't it have even less width taper, causing it to bend even more in the handle?
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pff, that bow is horrible, you should send it to me immediately for proper disposal ;D
Looks great Rich, really does.
I'm going to email you in regards to your string there - I have been wondering for a long time as to whether I could make a bow string from artificial sinew - seems like you already are doing that so I want to get some pointers on that as well.
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I threw the mic to it and this is what I came up with:
thickness: center= .460 mid-limb= .445 tip below the knock= .362
width: center= 1.155 mid-limb= 1.02 tip below the knock= .705
rich
Thanks doc, at least I aint got to go out into it
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Cool looking how rich , I was always led to believe bows that bend too much in the handle don't shoot so great. How does this one shoot?
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I threw the mic to it and this is what I came up with:
thickness: center= .460 mid-limb= .445 tip below the knock= .362
width: center= 1.155 mid-limb= 1.02 tip below the knock= .705
rich
Thanks doc, at least I aint got to go out into it
So, as I suspected, you don't have very much taper, either in thickness or width, hence the final tiller shape. Can you please explain the center out tiller thing?
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adb, imagine the center 10" of the bow a rectangle 10" x 1.55". I started my thickness taper at the outside of the 10" (5" each way from center of the bow) like it was a rigid handled grip fade, and kept scraping the taper to the tip untill I had my draw length at my mid 40's weight and the tips did not open up. That is what I was trying to say. Normally I start from the limb tips and get all of it bending as I slowly work in toward the center rectangle. Once I have my 1/2 circle I will tiller the entire bow to draw weight and maintain the angle of thickness taper. hope that answers your question, sir.
sidmand, fire away bud.
rich
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sorry wiz, typin while you were. I agree absolutely. I probably should have just gone shorter and wider, to solve the skin issue. But the bow's wood was not damaged too much (Ibelieve) because of the amount of set, that with the stiff tips has it shooting acceptably at my range of 20 yrds and under. For my desired "thick stuff bow" it is acceptable to me for it's purpose. It shoots very accurately and as well as most 40's bows.
rich
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adb, imagine the center 10" of the bow a rectangle 10" x 1.55". I started my thickness taper at the outside of the 10" (5" each way from center of the bow) like it was a rigid handled grip fade, and kept scraping the taper to the tip untill I had my draw length at my mid 40's weight and the tips did not open up. That is what I was trying to say. Normally I start from the limb tips and get all of it bending as I slowly work in toward the center rectangle. Once I have my 1/2 circle I will tiller the entire bow to draw weight and maintain the angle of thickness taper. hope that answers your question, sir.
sidmand, fire away bud.
rich
If my math is correct according to your figures, you have .098" of thickness taper. I just can't see how that's going to allow you to achieve some even bending.
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It basically makes two long barely bending levers working on a 10 inch central limb.
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Or a 10" long bow, with very long tips.
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I have been looking at the Steve Alley drawings of native american bows and have been wondering why so many of those traditional bows were tillered this same way? Certainly the native americans were not concerned with the same things we are today, but what advantages did they realize to their designs?
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All the native American bows I've seen were very simple affairs. Roughly made, but certainly effective. Take a stick, tie on a string, make it bend, make an arrow, kill a deer. Job done. No offense to anyone, but perhaps it was a matter of not knowing, or more likely not caring. I doubt "perfect' tiller was much of a concern. As long as the bow held up, spit out some arrows, and was strong enough to kill, job done. I guess what I'm really trying to say is, they probably didn't know better.
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Very even tiller for sure. Very close to a circular tiller even without trying for that particular tiller shape.
(http://i.imgur.com/d5mg0KC.jpg?1)
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That's a sweet bow and the skins are awsome looking also loved those rattlers at the end.
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This is a sweet looking bow. I find your description of how you tillerred this bow very interesting as well. Thanks for posting that.
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Well besides the tips being flipped of course. :P
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they probably didn't know better
adb-
I think that you are selling the native american bowyers a little short with that conclusion. The historical record shows a consistency of design, of at least of what has been preserved. If it was a lack of design, I would think that the bows would be all sizes and shapes.
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I don't know... I'm just guessing.
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Fellas, I posted a bow, I said it was not my usual, I told you why I did what I did and threw the mic on it for ya.
Let me clarify, abd and pat m, yall must have run out arguements on the other threads,eh? I dont recall asking you what your preffered bow style is/was. You dont like this one thats fine, all ya got to do is say so. You do yourselves no service by belittling Native Americans either. You have no idea what their thought processes were, or what their knowlege base was. I'm not native armeican but a crack like that embarrasses me as a white man. That arogant distain of Native Americans is what got General Braddock killed, too bad he had to take 800-1000 souls with him.
I never held this bow up as poster child for "great bows". I said I made me a hunting bow, and thats all. So thanks for your input, I'll be sure to give it the consideration it justly deserves.
rich
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Agreed
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Careful Rich. I have native blood. My Great Grandmother was Iroquois. My Grandson is half native. That has nothing to do with it. I said I was guessing. I'm not embarrassed to guess what some of my distant relatives might have been thinking or not thinking. My Grandson's father is Cree, and he's married to my daughter. Careful what brush you use to paint people you don't know. If you're trying to make me out as prejudiced, you're barking up the wrong tree.
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You sir should be careful then of saying your ancestors used bent sticks and strings.....because "they probably didnt know any better". If you cant see that remark as offensive (especially to your blood) then there is no hope.
Once again you two have highjacked a thread with off topic matters and comments of no constructive value.
I leave my thread in your all-knowing hands gentlemen.
rich
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Dang it I thought I was seeing white and gold. Or maybe blue and black..... ::)
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adb-
sometimes a quick guess is just that, and I appreciate that you came back and as much as said "after consideration, I don't really know",
Rich, you have made as many of these style bows as any one anyone, and if I may say so, probably more than the rest of us put together. I was really hoping to hear your views on the plus side of these traditional designs.
I will be more than willing to open another thread. Sorry for taking your presentation off topic.
Willie
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I just stated what I saw in the shape and made no judgement on it at all. That's your hypersensitivity kicking in.
Grandmother came right off the reserve in Manitoba FWIW.
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I agree that the consistency of design shows that Native Americans set out with a design in mind. But that doesn't mean that it was necessarily a good design. If you asked a Native American from 400 years ago why they were building a bow the way they were, I imagine a great many of them would shrug and say "that's how I was taught to do it, and it works for me."
Primitive peoples had a lot of other things on the go, and when it came time to hunt for food, most of them were likely more concerned with what had worked for them before, than what might work better for them next time. They didn't always have the luxury of time and energy for experimentation, and they certainly couldn't jump on the internet and have it out about what the best design was. Experimenting with a new design was often gambling with the well-being of your wife and children.
Its foolish to assume that primitive peoples didn't put any thought into it. After all, they were just as intelligent and inquisitive as we are today, and most people are always looking for ways to improve their lot. But neither is it wise to attribute them supreme knowledge. They didn't have the wealth of information that we do, nor the time or energy to spend all day experimenting. They arrived at designs that worked based largely on trial and error and natural selection. That's not putting them down by any means. All of modern science and technology is built on a foundation of trial and error, and more than a little failure and hardship. Every one of us on this site is informed by their success and failure.
I can respect the work they did and the things they learned, while still acknowledging that they may not have been entirely right, or went about about it in the best way.
All we can really say is that Native Americans knew at least one way that worked pretty for well them. Was it the best way? Maybe it was maybe it wasn't. But it worked well enough to support a thriving population for generations.
Think of it this way. If you had to put dinner on the table for your family tomorrow, what bow would you grab off the shelf? Your tried and true shooter? Or an untested design that you thought might work a little better? This kind of mindset is necessary for survival in primitive groups, but it tends to hold back innovation and creativity once a solution has been found, even if that solution is only a marginal one.
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I am also just offering what I saw as well. I see a bow with little taper in thickness or profile, bending too much in the handle, regardless of what design it is, or who maybe made them in the past. And as a matter of fact, I don't think it's a copy of a bow my ancestors would have made.
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I agree that the consistency of design shows that Native Americans set out with a design in mind. But that doesn't mean that it was necessarily a good design. If you asked a Native American from 400 years ago why they were building a bow the way they were, I imagine a great many of them would shrug and say "that's how I was taught to do it, and it works for me."
Primitive peoples had a lot of other things on the go, and when it came time to hunt for food, most of them were likely more concerned with what had worked for them before, than what might work better for them next time. They didn't always have the luxury of time and energy for experimentation, and they certainly couldn't jump on the internet and have it out about what the best design was. Experimenting with a new design was often gambling with the well-being of your wife and children.
Its foolish to assume that primitive peoples didn't put any thought into it. After all, they were just as intelligent and inquisitive as we are today, and most people are always looking for ways to improve their lot. But neither is it wise to attribute them supreme knowledge. They didn't have the wealth of information that we do, nor the time or energy to spend all day experimenting. They arrived at designs that worked based largely on trial and error and natural selection. That's not putting them down by any means. All of modern science and technology is built on a foundation of trial and error, and more than a little failure and hardship. Every one of us on this site is informed by their success and failure.
I can respect the work they did and the things they learned, while still acknowledging that they may not have been entirely right, or went about about it in the best way.
All we can really say is that Native Americans knew at least one way that worked pretty for well them. Was it the best way? Maybe it was maybe it wasn't. But it worked well enough to support a thriving population for generations.
Think of it this way. If you had to put dinner on the table for your family tomorrow, what bow would you grab off the shelf? Your tried and true shooter? Or an untested design that you thought might work a little better? This kind of mindset is necessary for survival in primitive groups, but it tends to hold back innovation and creativity once a solution has been found, even if that solution is only a marginal one.
Thank you.
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I can't wait to teach my Grandson to embrace his heritage. If he's willing, I'll teach him to make bows, and when I do, I'll tell him to make sure the limbs bend nice and even... not too much in one place or another, and I'll help him to learn how and why.
This is NOT a personal attack on you Rich. Only an attempt to challenge your ideas, and try to get you to see alternative views, and to provide a sharing of knowledge and understanding for new people.
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Then go back to the original post...where I said this was not usual, my Native Armerican replicas are circular tiller (even bend tip to tip) Secondly ....nowhere did I say this was a na bow or copy of one NO WHERE. I made me a hunting bow to accomodate some skins I was given, and even said I didn't like the bend so where did all you come up with all this other stuff from? How many circle tiller bows do I have to post before you get the idea of what my usual is.
Dont cover your fannys with "thats not NA" never said that it was, ya all just jumped on the crap wagon and so now there is no post of " my latest little hunter" just you all's side track. I guess the way to not get highjacked is to just not post, eh?
rich
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For what it's worth. . I think it's sweet and would totally enjoy having it. .
Especially if it pulled 29"
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Then go back to the original post...where I said this was not usual, my Native Armerican replicas are circular tiller (even bend tip to tip) Secondly ....nowhere did I say this was a na bow or copy of one NO WHERE. I made me a hunting bow to accomodate some skins I was given, and even said I didn't like the bend so where did all you come up with all this other stuff from? How many circle tiller bows do I have to post before you get the idea of what my usual is.
Dont cover your fannys with "thats not NA" never said that it was, ya all just jumped on the crap wagon and so now there is no post of " my latest little hunter" just you all's side track. I guess the way to not get highjacked is to just not post, eh?
rich
Like I said you are being hypersensitive.
How are the skins dictating tiller?
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You sir should be careful then of saying your ancestors used bent sticks and strings.....because "they probably didnt know any better". If you cant see that remark as offensive (especially to your blood) then there is no hope.
This is clearly not what I was saying.
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Arguing
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Bad call icu, very un-tasteful and very offensive considering my position. Your on my "list" for what that's worth.
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WOW
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What has happened to this post is really sad and appalling...What a shame when a person shares their work and the post gets trashed like this...So sorry this happened Rich...
Don
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Agree with Burchett.donald. Unbelievable from you guys. Very disappointing. :(
Pappy
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From Rich's first post; " See what yall think"
What does this mean?
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If it keeps up this will be closed and I suspect some will get sent on there way. :) So stop it now.
Pappy
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If it keeps up this will be closed and I suspect some will get sent on there way. :) So stop it now.
Pappy
What he said.
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By the way nice bow Rich. :) :)
Pappy
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By the way nice bow Rich. :) :)
Pappy
+1
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Pretty sad that discussing tiller logic has become like discussing religion. That is all.
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When I get a "reported post" alert, I expect a good show. This one wasn't too bad. I give it points for hypersensitivity and bias, but not many points for bad language, insults, or excessive whining.
Nice bow Rich. :)
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The comment about the special olympics and retard wasn't insulting?? I think 2 members here for sure, that have children with special needs, found that comment unbelievably insulting.
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Well, I think the comment about "special needs" was intended to be insulting to people who argue.
Anyways, let's move on gentlemen. I would like to see threads like this end on a light note. Maybe that's a lot to ask but I don't think it's impossible with the level of intelligence and wisdom of the members on here.
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Can we say cabin fever?
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Well, I think the comment about "special needs" was intended to be insulting to people who argue.
Anyways, let's move on gentlemen. I would like to see threads like this end on a light note. Maybe that's a lot to ask but I don't think it's impossible with the level of intelligence and wisdom of the members on here.
Regardless of what you think the comment intended to be, it only came off as insensitive and horribly inappropriate to people with special needs as being retards. Any support of it is disgraceful.
And just so you (or everyone else) should know, I will never stop defending my daughter from intolerance and ignorance.
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Hate to see this Rich. I was nearly the victim last week. On the plus side, I'm a fan of your work, and this is no exception. I appreciate the effort you go to, to stay true to your own methods. I believe your vast experience and documentation of your craft is proof enough of your talent. Thanks for posting and please continue to do so. Once the snow melts some of the other stuff will melt away as well.
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I just read this thread :-\ it honestly makes me not want to post a bow due to the viscous critism around here lately. werebhere to help each other. Not try and belittle someone. It just seems some people have been making pedestals instead of bows
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Nice bow Rich.
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Sorry rich, as always, nice work
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Please take this off line if you must but stop it Now enough is enoughPappy
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You took the words out of my mouth Pappy. Take this elsewhere!
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How much dose it rattle when you shoot it.
SWEETTTTTTTTTTTTTT skins
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That can happen but is that really what you want ??Pappy
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...and now back to you, Rich.
So did you really cut that skin in thirds to make this bow?? I really like the way you incorporated the rattle!
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yes sir I did. I was hoping this would die but guess not so I will take that skin photo is was thinking about. Put it up a little later sir.
Crooketarrow, it dont rattle at all when shot, thats why I put the mink cuffs where they are.
rich
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skin pics.....the two "strips" are wider than they look cause I couldn't make 'em lay flat.
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Oh man! he was a FATTY!
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Wow! What a monster! Josh
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josh, stringman them 2 snakes never backed away from a meal in their lives and thats a fact.
rich
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I am fairly certain if I saw that snake in the woods I'd crap down both pants legs, that's a couple big friggin snakes.
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Nice Hunting bow, Rich. Those skins are actually baby to average. I had one that was 8 1/2' long and 18" wide. It's getting harder to find the big ones anymore.
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Ya all can have 'em big or small >:D I'm thinking that were I there I'd have me a razor sharp hoe WITH a handle extension too 8) Hell man, most everything down there will stick ya, sting ya, or try it's damnedest to eat ya....concealed carry seems like a real good law to me.
rich
PS I was kidding but any venomous snake that size has my respect and utmost caution.
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I hear ya'. It's getting scary walking in the woods after dark or sitting down before Dawn during Turkey Season. Hell, we now have a new black and white spotted, three foot long lizard that has established a colony in a Gopher Tortoise burrow not far from the house.
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What!!! I'm glad it gets chilly here! That is a looker for sure ;)
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Thats a good looking bow Rich, the snake skin backing gorgeous and I like the back profile/shape. I most often make my handles slightly narrower than the limbs on my bendy bows but I like the looks of your example better.
Nice work.
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Nice bow! My understanding is that leaving the last few inches of each limb a little stiff should increase performance. What do you say? Do you notice a difference in how it performs?
I always like seeing your bows. This is no exception! Very nice!
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Rich,
I noticed that the maple made the skin light up through some of the scales, looks better and more alive than the original air dried skin... ;)
Don
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Thank you fellas for the feedback,
Don, I was afraid I screwed it up cause I really liked it Dark, but you know more about them than I do so it's real good to know it came out ok.
Arrowwind, It does not "seem" to be markedly better than the full circle bows but I have to admit when I shot it at 1/2" treated plywood (20 yards) it got about 1" more penetration than the other bows usually produce....so I suspect it would have better cast, and looks like it will do better with "heavy" arrows (12-15 g/lb) than I usually shoot.
B2, I got one of your bows ( two-grunts) it dont need to be changed one little bit sir!!!!
I hear you soy, it is real nice to run through a field of tall grass, or a swamp bottom and KNOW you aint gonna run into one of them 8)
Thanks again fellas
rich
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Good looking bow Rich! Those skins are beautiful. I usually use full circle on bows that short but I dont see anything wrong with trying something a little different every now and again:)
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Sweet bow, Rich! And dressed up very pretty. My heart really is with the shorties, no matter what my head says.
That snake must have yielded a curry for at least 20 people... :o
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Rich,
I think your on the money with the color and of coarse they all have variations of shade. But look at the pictures and how the whiter/yellowish scales pop out in color on the live snake vs your bow with it's light background causing the same affect...
Don
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Thank you Okie, much appreciated, me too with the full circle being the "normal"
Thanks Jodocus, The little buggers are for sure addicting 8) When I looked them up the book says they are the largest of all the rattle snakes and are known to get up to 10 pounds plus. Like I told Mr. Parker, they can have 'em and welcome >:D >:D
Don, Thank you for the pic, sure looks close to me....I guess I'll call it a "happy accident" cause I had no idea of what the hell I was doing. Hope to do justice to the whole thing. Thank you so much for sharing them.
rich
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Did you scale them? When I did the one on the saya of my practice and cutting sword they turned kinda light blue.
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Eddie, yep I descaled them with some packing tape and everything that come off looked black on the tape. They are real tough scales so it took 4-5 go arounds to get 'em all. After the glue was dry I give the skin a single coat of satin pure lacquer then the usual pitch/grease/wax finish. The lacquer was put on to make sure nothing in the finish would hurt the skin....I dont know if that was necessary or not, but thats what I did.
rich
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I am just getting in on the tail end of this one (and i am apparently better off >:D) - beautiful bow Rich! That rattler skin really pops on that maple stick. Great work.
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Great looking bow! Love those skins, too.