Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: simson on April 11, 2015, 03:06:29 am
-
First pic shows 3 dogwood staves (left to right)
left: fumed for 5 days with traces of cambium on
middle: fumed for 1 day cleaned before fuming
right: no fuming with traces of cambium for comparison
1(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/P1030900_zpsqtwtikuh.jpg)
next pic shows fresh cross cuts
l: fume damp has vaporized in the whole diameter
m: vaporized about 6 mm
r: just for comparison, no fume
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/P1030901_zpsujqnefv0.jpg)
Here is a detail of the stave in the middle. Forgot to say it was split after the fuming process. Marks shows how deep the damp has vaporized in.
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/P1030902_zpsyc1conia.jpg)
next is a comparison between fuming and staining with iron oxide (something what is called vinegar stain here)
l: BL (from the Mohegan stave) stained
m: osage stained
r: osage fumed for 2 weeks
I used no vinegar for staining but iron chloride – works more aggressive.
The long time osage came out like ebony really cool color.
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/P1030903_zpssb8jhs0u.jpg)
next a detail of the staining, the fresh cuttings show now color inside the wood. All is on the surface.
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/P1030905_zps6zfn8trf.jpg)
detail of the fumed osage, the damp was in the whole cross section
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/P1030908_zpssplnqbcq.jpg)
and a pic of the surface
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/P1030909_zpsocce2xt8.jpg)
-
Great info Simon.............Thanks!
DBar
-
So osage fumed two weeks, the fume is permanent and will not come out even when you chase a ring it doesn't go back yellow?
-
That's awesome how well it penetrated through the rays.
-
That is really cool. I would love to see an instructional on how you accomplish this. I am not familiar with fuming.
Thanks for posting your results.
Mike
-
So cool. You are really pushing the envelope on bow making.
-
So osage fumed two weeks, the fume is permanent and will not come out even when you chase a ring it doesn't go back yellow?
Look at the cross section. The inner rings aren't as black as the chased outer, but they are a lot darker than the fresh osage.
When I find time, I chase the underlaying ring for comparison
That is really cool. I would love to see an instructional on how you accomplish this. I am not familiar with fuming.
Thanks for posting your results.
Mike
More info is here: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,48632.0.html
-
That color on the iron oxide stained BL is nice but the change in the color of the osage fumed for two weeks and the depth of penetration is pretty interesting. Thanks for posting this, I think I'm gonna want to give this a try at some time in the future.
-
Finally got the next ring chased on that dark piece of osage. See what I found! The pics are taken inside and don't show the real beauty of that piece. It seems that the damp has vaporized from the sides to the middle. I'm convinced it would be darker if a solution were used or longer time. But anyway I like the result and I will use that technic for sure.
Other thing is, the ammonia treatment has changed the wood structure. Unbelievable how smooth the wood has become.
The first pic shows the piece and for comparison a fresh worked osage for comparison.
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/P1030910_zpsidc6qcyn.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/P1030912_zpszi3i4nop.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/P1030911_zpsljyghvj7.jpg)
-
Will the fumning process moisten the wood to the point where it might lose its shape?
-
Will the fumning process moisten the wood to the point where it might lose its shape?
I really don't know what happens there, but there is a change - definitely. When the stave/bow comes out of the fuming pipe it is wet and stinks heavily. After a few hours in the air the moisture and smell is gone. The new color is no stain or dye - it is a chemical reaction of the tanning acids in the wood.
-
Thanks for taking the time to do this Simon. Very cool results with the osage
-
Simson that is really cool. You somewhat inspired me to try premature aging recently. Did you see what happened with that osage bow that I treated with lye and then nuetralized it with vinegar? It made for a very nice color change and finish.
-
Looks good down there where you chased to another ring too. The look just seems different than what can be done with a dye or stain, I like the fumed look better.
-
I may sound like a fool, but.. What and how do you do this fuming?
-
Ammonia is the usual thing to use for this kind of thing.
You just put the stave in a sealed container with an open pot of ammonia.
I presume that Simson is doing the same thing???
By the way when your mate passes you a bottle of ammonia with a grin and says 'have a smell of this stuff'.....don't!!!
-
Hmm, I find that incredibly fascinating. I'm in love with that dark chocolate look on the Osage.
-
Any further testing done yet???
OneBow
-
What sorts of materials are safe and commonly used as a container for fuming a bow? I'd like to give this a try and was thinking a large piece of PVC piping with caps on each end would be an easy way to fume a bow.
-
Any further testing done yet???
OneBow
Yes, I do permanently experiments on that things. I will post a fumed elm HLD bow soon. And I#m trying to get an osage chocolate bow :laugh:
What sorts of materials are safe and commonly used as a container for fuming a bow? I'd like to give this a try and was thinking a large piece of PVC piping with caps on each end would be an easy way to fume a bow.
Any plastic foil pipe or a hard plastic pipe will work. As Mike said it must be sealed - no damps should come out. Work carefully, the stuff is dangerous. Post your experiments!
-
If the hickory bow I'm working now survives the tillering process I think I'll be trying this ;D
-
Very cool, thanks for posting this simson! I have been wanting to try something like this for a while now. Patrick
-
Have you tried soaking it in tea for a bit, maybe up the tannin content. Although now that I've said that you would have a tough time getting me to soak a finished bow in tea ???
-
I did some further research and it looks like HDPE is non-reactive with ammonia. Some plastics will be eaten up by it. PVC is listed as "not recommended" for contact with ammonia solutions, so be careful if you're thinking about using pvc pipe to seal the bow up. Go with HDPE.
Now I've got to try this :-)
-
Have you tried soaking it in tea for a bit, maybe up the tannin content. Although now that I've said that you would have a tough time getting me to soak a finished bow in tea ???
I have tried to increase the reaction with soaking before with tannin acid. No good result, all the fine structure have been gone, only a one tone color came out.
I did some further research and it looks like HDPE is non-reactive with ammonia. Some plastics will be eaten up by it. PVC is listed as "not recommended" for contact with ammonia solutions, so be careful if you're thinking about using pvc pipe to seal the bow up. Go with HDPE.
Now I've got to try this :-)
I use a 25% solution of ammonia. There is no direct contact with the fluid and The pipe /foil. Only the fuming damps are inside. Til now no problem at all. But thanks for the tip!
-
That's wicked.
Cloudfeather (bit late to answer your question, but what the heck): Fuming will temporarily loosen the hydrogen bonds among the cellulose molecules (and other molecules), allowing to bend the wood without affecting tension properties a lot.
After the ammonia has evaporated, new hydrogen bonds are made, but at other places.
In non-fumed wood that's being bent, the stacked wood fibers are being put under considerable strain. Ammonia-fuming allows these stacks to glide over each other a bit (the hydrogen bonds have dissolved) during bending, as a result of which you can bend the wood in a crazy fashion as the wood is strained considerably less than with heat-bending. Once the ammonia is gone, the wood stays in that shape and new hydrogen bonds are being formed among the new neighbouring stacks of cellulose molecules.
As a corollary, the ammonia also affects the tannins in the wood, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_fuming
-
So it sounds like you may be able to get some more extreme bends using ammonia. Has anyone ever tried this? I've had a rough time flipping tips using dry heat in the past and would be interested in hearing the land-mines associated with bending with ammonia.
-
Willibow, ammonia is extremely irritating to about every part of your body, especially eyes and respiratory system. Not to be used without utmost precautions. That's quite a "landmine"
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/ammonia.html
If you have trouble bending wood using dry heat (like I do), that's often because of a lack of patience (heat gun too close to wood, heating the wood too fast... Result is that wood is not heated evenly to the centre of the stave).
To flip tips, I prefer steaming the ends for 20 minutes or so, and immediately bend the tips over a caul. Boiling the tips should also work.
-
I had two bows in the fuming tube, an osage and a black locust. Both were in the tube for 5 days. Look what a beautiful chocolate came out. On the osage is a white earth pigment rubbed in, it stays in the rough early wood layer and gives a cool effect to the wood.
I'm astouned the BL color is not far away from the osage.
There is no dye and no stain on the woods.
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%201%20von%202_zpsaeberybr.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%202%20von%202_zpsiachba1j.jpg)
-
That is awesome I might have to try this out. Explain what u did with the white pigment. What was used? How you applied it?
-
That is awesome I might have to try this out. Explain what u did with the white pigment. What was used? How you applied it?
On ring-porous wood you can simply rub fine pigment into the open pores of the early wood prior to sealing.
Simson, those are gorgeous!! Thanks so much for sharing your experiments!
-
Man those look great. Love the color.
Would it be possible to show pics of your setup?
-
Well, here is a photo shooting of a 5 day fuming procedure:
day 1
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%207%20von%2011_zpsazb6a3s1.jpg)
day 2
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%208%20von%2011_zpsyafzqb0v.jpg)
day 3
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%209%20von%2011_zpsh0ggmkej.jpg)
day 4
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%2010%20von%2011_zpsafxnv0mk.jpg)
day 5
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%2011%20von%2011_zpslkvyfhgf.jpg)
and this was the setup: an old paint can + a foil from the kitchen, I do not know the exact name for it. It is used for broiling in the oven.
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%206%20von%2011_zpshncogc6z.jpg)
Wasn't pleased with it and got my hands on a thicker plastic tube. Disadvantage is it isn#T that clear like the other, but it does the job.The end with the wire is hanging on the ceiling, the bow hangs freely in the tube on the cord (see my finger), the other end has a matching pot for the ammonia and is just reaching the floor. I think the pics explain all, and I have no need to struggle for more words.
Let know your results guys ….
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%201%20von%2011_zpstfs3l6hy.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%202%20von%2011_zps8hm5lznu.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%203%20von%2011_zpsuc5jsexu.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%204%20von%2011_zpsuserakmz.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1502%20colors%20of%20osage/colors%20of%20osage%20-%205%20von%2011_zpsnhxwllcd.jpg)
-
Thanks Simon. Your words were great. Very nice setup.
-
Beautiful Simson. Your pictures are a great help and are very much appreciated! ;D Does the string used to hang the bow mask the wood under the string and prevent it from reacting with the ammonia vapors? I'm heat treating the second limb of my bow tonight and will attempt to fume it later this week.
-
I've had an osage bow in a tube for 3 days....I'm getting it out today and will post some pictures.
-
Simon, have you noticed any difference in the performance or other side effects from this fuming experiment now that it has been a couple months?
-
Aaron, there are some side-effects.
1. the whole surface of the bow/stave gets smoother, like sanded with high grit paper
2. the wood is way more elastic after the fuming, like rubber - perhaps bendings could be done on cold wood (I didn't try, but will do)
3. and the wood gets darker and darker, of course ;D ;D ;D
4. looking at Gun docs bug bomb thread: while fuming all insects were killed!!
So if you try the fuming, be sure to let the vaporized damps go out of your bow. This will last a few days! After that performance and weight is the same as before!
I will post some experimental bows, when I get a photographer
Good luck on yours
Simon
-
Very cool simson, I may have to try this one day! I wonder if you could put painters tape on the belly side or something to that effect to create a 2 toned look? Just an idea. Patrick
-
Very cool simson, I may have to try this one day! I wonder if you could put painters tape on the belly side or something to that effect to create a 2 toned look? Just an idea. Patrick
Patrick, just go to: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,48632.0.html
-
Thank you Sir. I forgot about that one. I remember seeing it now. I'm definitely going to try this for sure. Thanks again, Patrick
-
Thank you Simon, I decided to give this method a try on my hunting bow for this year. I just pulled a piece of osage that has fumed for 3 1/2 days. It turned a shade very close to your day 4 picture. I will leave it alone for a few more days and then I will put a some arrows through it. What a neat experiment this has been, Thank you for this thread.
-
I would like to try this. Where do you get the ammonia in a 25% concentration?
Also, has anyone tried it on sugar maple?
-
@briarjumper12
in Geermany you can ammonia in the pharmacy.
I think you will need a wood with tannin - Osage, Oak, Black locust, ...
@simson
have you tried to oil the wood directly with ammonia?
-
@briarjumper12
in Geermany you can ammonia in the pharmacy.
I think you will need a wood with tannin - Osage, Oak, Black locust, ...
@simson
have you tried to oil the wood directly with ammonia?
I am still looking for a local source of ammonia with high enough concentration. I read on a furniture building forum that to make fuming effective in maple they were staining it it with tea before fuming. The tea adds tannins apparently. I am gonna give this a try once I track down the right ammonia. I could order it off the web but shipping is outrageous because it is hazardous.
-
@briarjumper12
in Geermany you can ammonia in the pharmacy.
I think you will need a wood with tannin - Osage, Oak, Black locust, ...
@simson
have you tried to oil the wood directly with ammonia?
I am still looking for a local source of ammonia with high enough concentration. I read on a furniture building forum that to make fuming effective in maple they were staining it it with tea before fuming. The tea adds tannins apparently. I am gonna give this a try once I track down the right ammonia. I could order it off the web but shipping is outrageous because it is hazardous.
maybe in a drugstore or look for restorer's stuff ...
do not know where ammonia is sold in US
If you don't get a 25% solution, take the 10%. You will get the same result, just the process needs a longer time!
BE CAREFUL WITH THIS STUFF!!!
Work outdoors, and use nitrile gloves. I've got a drop on my right hand and the within minutes got a hole in my skin!
@Andrew: directly use (brush) is dangerous, stinks, and you will get no satisfying results. A damp is needed and the piece should hang freely in the tube!
-
Of course direct use is dangerous and very stinky... but with the workplate in my kitchen I had good results.
I think it is more like a dye?
I will test it with a "Bratschlauch" ;)
-
Here's a little test I did. This is yew fumed with household ammonia cleaning fluid. Fumed in an ice cream bucket for almost a day. It's actually a little greener than the picture. More towards a copper preservative color. It penetrated more than 1/8" in that time. You can see where I sanded it on the end. I'll leave it for a few more days and see what happens. It really makes the grain in the sapwood pop.
-
DC, that's cool. Might have to try that. Wonder of it would work on the dogwood sapling bow I'm working on?
-
I tried to find a site that listed the tannin content of different woods with no luck. Just try it. I thought I was going to have to wait a week and was surprised when I got this much change overnight with just household ammonia. The color ain't that great(great base for camo though) but we'll see what happens after a few days.
-
I know the bark of dogwood contains tannin, maybe the wood does too. TO THE CLEANING SUPPLIES STORE!!!!!!!
-
If you have to go buy some maybe you should look for something stronger. Household is around 5% and you can get 30%. Stronger would work better but remember this is dangerous stuff.
-
48 hrs. This picture was taken in natural light. It looks like dark pressure treated wood. Not sure if that's the look I'm going for.
-
fuming on beech leftovers
Ammonia 5% for 3 days - 5°C (41°F) circa
just to show that even if ammonia is low concentration it still works even at low temperatures
a small test before trying to fume an all wood mouse trap replica I made