Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: vtbow on June 27, 2015, 05:13:29 pm
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I'm looking forward to making my first bow with help here. I also just cut an elm section, but I know it will take a while to season, so I probably will make my beginner bow from dry boards. I have lots of dry cherry, and probably some ash as well.
This is the elm -- I left it 6 feet long, and didn't know whether I should split it or saw it, and into how many sections. In the end I just sawed it into 4 pieces. The small end was 6" diameter.
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/Elm1.jpg)
It was leaning in a hedgerow, so when I sawed it there was a fair amount of spring in the sections. Not sure if that is visible here. Some sections bowed more than others.
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/elm1.jpg)
I would appreciate any suggestions you all have. I don't know if this is good wood for the purpose or not, with the bow.
The ring spacing was extremely tight in the dark wood, but opened up in the white area. Probably because 12 years ago i moved here and cleared the land behind it, and it got much more light then.
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/elm3.jpg)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/elm2.jpg)
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Looks like nice stuff!not sure I would have quartered it so quickly,chances are it gonna warp and twist as it dries.i would peel the bark,seal the ends with wood glue and rachet strap them to something soild like a 2x4 on edge.cherry boards are not the best for self bows,i'd try the ash but hickory would be a better choice for a beginner.good luck!
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Thanks Bushboy! I did hit the ends with melted paraffin wax, and I'll peel them shortly. I don't have any hickory on my land -- or at least I've never seen any. Seen it 10 miles away (one pignut hickory tree in a park!) so maybe I should try exploring more, but I kinda doubt it. Tons of sweet and yellow birch, and ash, fair amount of cherry and some sugar maple -- most maple is red maple. A few hop hornbeam I've seen scattered in odd places on my land, .
But for wood I've already cut and dried so far, ash and cherry are it. Well might have some birch, too. I'll check
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Well I actually found a hickory tree today in a hedgerow, the first I've noticed here in 12 years. It's only 4" diameter, and I'm kinda reluctant to cut the only one this young, unless I find more. I walked around an hour today looking carefully, but didn't see another.
A couple days ago I found an old board wood stack I had cut - toppled in the woods behind the shed. It was drizzling out, andIt looked like just a mess of black slimy boards, but curious if anything was salvageable, I started pulling it apart an leaning the boards up against trees. There was some 1" thick black birch boards that looked and felt solid, so I ripped one into 2-1/4" strips, and the grain looked pretty straight, and most of the decay was only surface stain. So I cut off the ends and took the best strip inside, sharpened the plane up and cleaned off the faces.
The color almost made me think it was cherry sapwood -- kind of a very light creamy tan pink. But it's definitely black birch (sweet birch). No cherry smell, and I remember cutting it about 7 years ago.
I'm hoping it might be good for my first bow attempt. It's not fully dry yet, since the pile fell over -- I have an old Harbor Freight moisture meter which put it at 18% moisture content.
I've got it planed down to 3/4" thick, 79" long with near-to-knot grain on the belly side just off one edge corner at the end -- 74" would lose it. Another spot of curved grain on the belly side corner at 57". The back side looks perfect and otherwise very straight grain all 4 sides, and the stain is all planed off.
There's about 1/4" reflex to the board right now, evenly spaced.
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I think fungus runs deep in whitewood even if it looks sound.i would cut a small slat,quick dry and do a bend test before investing to much time or effort.ive never worked with black birch before though,don't know?
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After a quick search sweet birch is quite light for bow wood.google potential bow wood species,spells it out quite clearly.i'd be after that hop horn beam if. I were you.
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Nice find. Not much elm here. My site amy help you. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
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Thanks Bushboy for all your help, I'll do as you say and I've got a ripped out strip of the birch from right next to the blank I have. The wood looks really good. I'll dry it and try it.
My interest in black birch comes from the fact that practically every other tree on my land is a black birch -- most all with no branches for 20 or more feet and straight trunked with clean bark. I cut and split maybe 7 cords of wood a year, and it is a clean tough hard and heavy wood, very nice in general.
When I split the occasional yellow birch it's always knotty and twisty grain (propellor like), lots of defects and shreds.
Ash splits super easy and clean, but I just don't like it, except for maybe making handles. It rots very easy. Not the black birch, though.
I'd love it if the black birch worked out -- I've always wanted to find a use for it besides burning it. It just looks so good as wood.
The hop hornbeam -- I've only found two trees so far, and like the elm, if I cut them down, I'd probably have to wait a year for it to dry. As you can imagine just starting out like i am, waiting a whole year to begin making a bow seems like an eternity! A board bow from wood I have will help me not to go nutz after reading this forum every night! I don't expect it will turn out great.... it probably won't be too good by comparison with what I see here, I know.
I have done a little internet searching on woods, and I don't quite understand how published wood specs relate to bow making, but every time I look up black birch (sweet birch) it looks really high in strength specs. It's totally different than white (paper birch). I have some trees of that, and they are weak, soft, diseaase prone -- it's like night and day the difference between the two.
In the specs it seems a lot stronger than red oak or even elm:
Black (Sweet) Birch:
Betula lenta
Average Dried Weight: 46 lbs/ft3
Janka Hardness: 1,470 lbf
Modulus of Rupture: 16,900 lbf/in2
Elastic Modulus: 2,170,000 lbf/in2
Crushing Strength: 8,540 lbf/in2
American Elm:
Ulmus americana
Average Dried Weight: 35 lbs/ft3
Janka Hardness: 830 lbf (3,690 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 11,800 lbf/in2
Elastic Modulus: 1,340,000 lbf/in2
Crushing Strength: 5,520 lbf/in2
Red Oak
Quercus rubra
Average Dried Weight: 44 lbs/ft3
Janka Hardness: 1,220 lbf (5,430 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 14,380
Elastic Modulus: 1,761,000 lbf/in2
Crushing Strength: 6,780 lbf/in2
So I guess I'm just hopeful that it will make a better bow than is usually thought because maybe it has been confused with white, grey and river birch. It's not common everywhere (though it is right here). With specs like that above, I just wonder, how bad can it be?
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Nice find. Not much elm here. My site amy help you. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
Thank you kindly Jawge, that's a great site , and really helpful!!! :)
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Those stats on black birch look nice. Also if u cut down some staves split them and seal the ends and back then rough out to bow dimesions they will not take a year. Some where around a month or two I've even seen less.
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Nice find. Not much elm here in NH that I've seen. My sit emay help you.
Jawge
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Thanks alwayslookin, that makes a big difference. I can wait a month a lot easier than a year!
I have noticed that the birch plank is rapidly loosing moisture now that it is 3/4" x 1-3/4". It went from 18% moisture two days ago to 12% this afternoon.
I went back to the place where I cut the elm and peeled a more crooked section of the trunk this afternoon using the hatchet. I guess I'll save the bark.
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/elm5.jpg)
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Those stats on black birch look nice. Also if u cut down some staves split them and seal the ends and back then rough out to bow dimesions they will not take a year. Some where around a month or two I've even seen less.
So taking your advice alwayslookin, I found a black birch sapling a little over 2" diameter and pretty straight, cut it down to a little over 60" and slid the hatchet up both sides to star peeling it:
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirchSapling1.jpg)
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Then I got it peeled:
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirchSapling2.jpg)
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Then I even up the sides a little with the hatchet:
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirchSapling3.jpg)
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Then I chopped out the belly side some, and put paraffin on the ends:
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirchSapling4.jpg)
About this time my in-laws arrived, and we had better uses for the picnic table!
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Coat the back with something soon! I use shellac.
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Thanks DC!
Shellaced.
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Working a little more on the blank today:
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirchSapling5.jpg)
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Make sure you stap it to a board when it starts bending a bit.
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Okay, will do, thanks Ryan.
I worked on it a little more today before dinner:
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirchSapling6.jpg)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirchSapling7.jpg)
I hit the whole bow with a paper towel moistened with shellac after. Hoping that will equalize the moisture overnight.
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I'm holding off working on my black birch bow until it's about 10%. It was 25% moisture content a couple days ago and is dropping about 3% a day so far.
A question while waiting..... I also have big leaf linden trees -- also called basswood. Very light and dries straight. I imagine it isn't used for bows, but can it be used for arrows?
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The birch sapling bow blank is at about 14% moisture and going down a lot more slowly.
So today I decided to work on the birch board I'd salvaged. That will make it my first bow. It's about 10% moisture content, but looking at it closely it had a hook in the grain at 54". It was probably near a knot off the board. The grain turned and came right out the back, so I didn't think there was any other choice but cut it out and shorten the bow to 54". The rest of the grain was absolutely straight and even, perfect really.
I'm kind of discouraged because this does seem really very short, and I have a 29" draw. It doesn't need to be a hunting bow, so could be about 40 lbs draw, but I don't know if that is even asking too much of it. I don't have sinew, rawhide for backing. I do have silk if needed.
But I'm kind of tempted not to back it, just because I'm curious to see how black birch does as an experiment. How far it will go tillering without breaking. If I back it then I might not know.
Right now it is quite heavy and stiff. The limbs taper fron 3/4" thick to 3/8" thick at the tips. Just trying to floor tiller it before scraping, it doesn't bend much at all. Without experience, I don't have anything to compare it to. It is acting like the specs on black birch say -- very stiff, and fairly heavy. I haven't started tillering. I'll use a pulley and long line to keep clear of it.
Any suggestions at this point are welcome.
If it breaks, I promise not to be too disappointed! I think of it as an experiment.
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirch.Board3JPG.jpg)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirch.Board1JPG.jpg)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirch.Board2JPG.jpg)
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I set up for a first try at tillering against the side of the barn. I'm pretty slow at it -- I spent half of the day just getting it to 15" from flat with a taught bowstring, and that's about 30 lbs. The limbs are quite a bit thinner now. I'm just wondering how it will ever get to 24" from here, not to mention 29". How thin can limbs get?
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Shoot for your draw weight at 24", maybe 27" if its a bendy handle. 29" draw out of that length is asking way too much of the bow in my opinion.
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Okay, bb --
Can I just trim the handle down to get it bendy?
Right now handle is 1" wide by 1-1/2" deep and 4" long.
it's a 3/4" riser on a 3/4" full board thickness. Should I take the riser off?
Limbs are 7/16" thick at fades and 1-5/8" wide. And 1/4" thick, 1/2" wide at nocks
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Maybe answering my own question.....
Looks like (from the bow on Jawge's site) with a bendy handle the bow is full width through the handle area. So I can't convert this bow to a bendy handle, since the handle area has been narrowed to 1" wide...
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If I go to a child's bow with this, I could give it to my daughter. That would be a 15# at 22" for her. I guess that would make more sense. But how do I get it that low a draw weight?
Should I narrow the limbs at the fades a little?
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Well, with no answers to my newbie questions, I've just forged ahead --- or backed up actually. I went back to a long string. and gradually worked the limbs down to 20# at 10" of draw, then short brace it and creeped down in weight and up in draw.
Finally full braced it at my daughter's fistmele (hope I got that right) and worked it down to 18# at 21" which is her draw length. She tried it out and 18# is still a strain for her -- target weight was 15#. So one more newbie question: should I work it down further to 15# exactly, or should I leave it at this weight and assume it will lose a little in final sanding and more use? What do you think -- anybody reading this?
ps. I did exercise it 30 times every time I scraped the belly wood down a little.
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirchBoardBraced.jpg)
Braced.
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirchBoardTillering.jpg)
Tillered 18# @ 21" so far.
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As far as reducing weight further, that is your call. If it is much of a strain and is your daughter's only bow I would reduce it down personally, it is easier to work with kids on form and consistency when they are not really struggling to draw the bow. That said though the bow will lose some weight with final sanding and shooting in, so how much lower you go is up to you.
SOM
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This may be a little late, but you could splice in levers on both tips to get the extra length and possibly get a 29" draw.
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It's bending way too much at the fades, so if you want to lose some more weight take it from the outer limbs. Might get the tiller saved, and get to a better weight at the same time.
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Thanks son of massey. She has a fiberglss bow given to her on her birthday that she has been shooting for a couple weeks. When I asked her to pull the new wood bow and compare she said there was more "strain" then th other. So today I put her glass bow (rated at "15 pounds) on the tiller and it pulled 22 pounds at 21" vs the wood bow @ 18# at 21". So I didn't know what to make of that.
I'm thinking now that the difference may be the string and not the actual pull. The kids bow she got as a present came with pre installed rubber knocking points that fit all 3 fingers with a space between for the arrow -- I don't know what that's called, if it has a name. So I think it was easier on her fingers -- maybe that's what she meant by "strain".....
But anyway, I decided to reduce the pull weight on the wood bow further since 15 pounds seems to be a standard for young kid's bows, and I want her to enjoy shooting it, and work on form, as you say.
Bubbles, thanks for the suggestion, and I'll keep that in mind for the future. Course, I hope to keep in mind that I need a longer bow to begin with! Well -- thought I had that, but the grain flaw showed up when the board was planed and it had to be cut down. I'm thinking 72" next time.
WillS, greatly appreciate your comment and observation -- so I'm working the tips down now. It's going slow -- I lost only a half pound draw after about 2 hours of work, but I don't want to mess this bow up at this stage. I scrape, excercise it 30 times and check the weight and shape, and repeat. I think the shape may be better, but I don't have a photo today to check it against that last one.
Thanks again for all you guy's comments!
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I got the bow down to 16 lbs. today and I think that's as far as I want to go with it. It's 1/8" thick at the nocks. Feels sturdy though and very springy with reserve past 21" ( I did check to 22" with no problem). There;s no sudden jump in stress as you're pulling back, like there is with her fiberglass bow. That bow is much heavier, weight wise, too. Plus the fistmele on that plastic bow must have fit a giant's hand.
In a new try today, my daughter said the new bow was definitely easier to draw, but the string hurt -- that is what she meant before. Her glass bow has wide rubber knock points that cushion fingers. The new bow, just bare string.
I shot 30 arrows with the new bow, and was surprised at the accuracy and penetration for the tiny 16 lbs. draw. Buried the fletching through a corrugated cardboard faced hay bale on a few shots.
It's not finished yet, but I'm really glad my first bow can actually shoot an arrow! In fact I was getting a feeling I liked this kid's bow better shooting than my old 40# bearcat recurve. :o
I'm lookig forward to finishing it and giving her a bow I made.
52-1/2" ntn, 21", 16#, Black birch
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirchBoardTillering3.jpg)
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I did an elm handle wrap per bushboy's thread and really enjoyed doing it that way.
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirch.BoardWrap2.jpg)
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(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/Sawmill/BlackBirch.BoardFinishing1.jpg)
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If you get the outer limbs working more on both limbs the weight will probably be just about right by the time the tiller is straightened out, you can see where most of the bend is inner third, take ten good scrapes on each side and see what it looks like when it looks good to you have her shoot it and see if she can do so easily, heavy bows make for bad habits
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Bubby are you looking at the first tiller photo?
The later tillering photo above is where it's at now, and that's only 16 lbs, draw and she can easily pull it back.
Her plastic bow that she was using before was 22 lbs. draw when I measured it.
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I think you went a bit too far in getting the outer limbs bending, but no bother! It's a nice looking bow and I'm sure your daughter will love it! You can tell you have some craftsman in you, so I'm sure it won't take long before you make something (for yourself) that you really like!