Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Dakota Kid on July 12, 2015, 06:42:02 pm
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Has anyone ever used or heard of someone using a set of talons from a raptor(bird not dinosaur)? I was considering giving it a try. I was planning on filling the hollow on the back side of the nail with high density dental epoxy, the one they make the teeth in dentures out of. The talons are made of keratin same as antler and hoof so I assume it will be okay. I'd just hate to ruin them. Who knows if I'll ever find another set, because use/possession of wild raptor parts is illegal in my state(and the whole U.S. if I'm not mistaken).
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My only question is do you have a permit to have such items? If not I wouldn't even think about it.
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It didn't come from a wild bird. I assume that makes a difference. If I'm wrong please let me know and I will return it to the earth.
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No way I'm messing with any part of a bird of prey. Not worth the legal mess and fines if you get caught.
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After doing some quick research on the subject I'm beginning to agree with you fellas. Forget I mentioned it, as I will be leaving them in the woods next time I'm there.
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It doesn't matter where they came from. Best to leave them alone.
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Unless you are full blood native American, put them back.
The law can be tough on this. Do it with respect to the animal.
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Respect for the animal is why I wanted to use them in the first place, but as I've said already the will be returned to nature.
In an effort to keep a similar design for the bow I had in mind, what about bear or cougar claws with some modification of shape of course?
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On a side note, why is race a determining factor when it come to religious practices? A belief is a belief plain and simple. I respect the native americans and their beliefs very much. I wouldn't consider my beliefs to be identical to theirs, but they were a heavy influence on my spiritual path.
I really see no reason that possession of certain animals parts is a crime. Killing certain animal sure, but I find animal remains every day and it seems like a waste to watch them rot. In the case of feather especially. It is very easy to tell the difference from a molted feather and one plucked from a carcass. At the very least they should have an option available to non-native americans who believe in animal symbolism and consider items made from certain animals to be sacred. I'm not talking about an overpriced permit which would strip the magic from the endeavor entirely, but perhaps a cataloging and reporting procedure from the time nature provides it until you are finished with it. Selling of any of these items would remain illegal of course. I'd even allow for random request to produce the items in question to make sure the privilege is not abused.
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Those are good questions. There should be a caveman clause in all animal possession laws. As long as you descend from cavemen it should be OK. lol
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I agree it's pretty stupid to get in trouble for something you picked up off the ground. But unfortunately our country is known for stupid laws and for having ulterior motives. The law is the law though and it's not worth the trouble of getting caught with it.
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agreed.
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The laws to protect birds in general are over 100 years old and were put in place to protect all birds from plume hunters. Because of that "stupid law" we still can enjoy most of the birds in our environment. Raptors are protected specifically also.
There are plenty of cool things to use as tip overlays if you think about it. No need to break any stupid laws. ;)
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The "stupid" law is because people will kill raptors and claim it was a dead bird they took the feathers from. We wouldn't need "stupid" laws if it weren't for blood thirsty poachers.
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I never said it was stupid, just the all or nothing nature of it didn't make sense. If the demand for eagle feathers was high enough do you think a law would matter. A felony 3 drug charge will get you 25 to life. When was the last time you heard of someone poaching eagles?
If stopping plume hunting was the main purpose for the law it isn't nearly as relevant or necessary today. For one, the fashion industry as a whole leans toward the ethical treatment of animals. Secondly, any feathers that are unique enough to create demand are typical farm raised now a days, like peacock and hackle roosters for example. Lastly, synthetic materials have replaced and out performed the natural one that were once used.
With all of our modern conveniences, like cars, planes, electricity, windows, pesticides, insecticides, and herbicides there is no lack of dying birds. I just want to pluck the feathers and I'm not allowed because it protects the birds? That's the part that doesn't make sense. I've never said ooo that bird is beautiful I must kill it to take the feathers, but if nature lays a gift at my feet it seems like a sin to refuse it.
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Why do you assume that what nature lays at your feet is a gift for you. It is nature itself. Without respecting all nature we threaten ourselves. Unfortunately we have to have laws to protect nature and ourselves or it would all go to...well, back to nature. ;)
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I don't pick up every thing I step over, but there have been times where it was clear it was intended for me. If I take something I shouldn't have, I tend to realize it rather quickly. ;)
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If I take something I leave something (an offering) in it's place. I neglected to mention that because it's not a common practice, but to some it's extremely important.
I've rather enjoyed the discussion thus for thanks Pat.
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I was referring to it being stupid in the sense of picking a shed feather off the ground. I love birds of prey and have been fascinated by them since I was old enough to read. Maybe that came out wrong. I picked up many feathers when I was young because I thought they were cool and loved my Indian heritage. Now say I was to get in trouble because I picked up a feather and didn't know the laws nothing in my conscience said to me that this was wrong I was merely fascinated by it and wanted to keep the memory. That is stupid to me. Our country goes back on our laws all the time and uses loop holes to do things that any normal citizen would be put in prison for but to the person in a point of power it goes by without a hitch. That is stupid to me. That's my point we are allowed to have opions correct?
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Negligence won't hold up when the game warden nabs ya! Here's one I was always tought: "Bird of prey, let it lay!"
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There are still 26 reported poached eagles in the US every year. So people DO still kill them. There are laws because if there weren't , there would be more. Perhaps it is different elswere is the country, but here there are a lot of unethical "hunters". Sadly these people learn young and no one busts their behinds and teaches them right from wrong. Utah has 209 cases of poaching protected wildlife per year. That is again, only the ones that get reported.
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I do not think religion has anything to do with it. But they were here first and grandfathered in as far as posision.
I remember farmers talking about killing every hawk they could to protect their chickens. People being people cause
trouble for others who care. If you hunt and make a clean kill, respect that animals life by not wasting it.
Laws of the land are there to protect those who can not themselves. (animals)
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I'm not trying to bust anyone's hump. We go through this conversation a few times each year. Being that we all use natural materials in this hobby of ours it is up to us to let everyone involved know what we can use and what we shouldn't use. Like many of you guys I also pick up feathers, etc. while walking in our woods. I know not to use them for anything but I do admire their beauty but even simple possession is illegal.
Even if you didn't know about the law(s), ignorance of the law is no excuse in the eyes of the law. Look up the laws and read them to educate yourself so you can help others when they deal with the situation. Because we do deal with natural materials it is up to us to educate ourselves to the laws and to help educate others getting into our hobby.
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These types of "illegal possession" laws extend to many other species and parts of species to prevent poaching. In ontario,I believe black bear gallbladders must be left on the carcass of the bear. Even if you hunt and kill a bear, you can't take that part. There is just no way to prove it was from a legally killed bear.
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Without laws and rules chaos would ensue!
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I do what I want with natural materials. I have tons of shed red tail hawk feathers and some arrows fletched with them. Do what you want with them just know what the consequences can be. Could def make tip overlays.
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I'm fairly new to the site, I was unaware that the horse I was beating was already deceased. I still have a few whacks left in me though so you'll have to forgive me. We all know how hard it is to stop whacking before you've finished. :laugh:
With re guard to special benefits based on race alone, I feel the same way I do about discriminating based on race. It's all racism plain and simple. It's about time we let that nonsense go. There's no point in holding onto guilt and animosity that was caused by actions that happened centuries ago. The meat sacks our souls currently reside in have no bearing on what we are deprived from or entitled to. Actions are the only true measure of character.
When it boils down to it, I am willing to answer to my creator for all of my actions. Man's law is not nature's law, and only one of those is a true concern for me. Even our court system recognizes natural law to some extent and it trumps man's law in those instances.
They pass new laws and restrictions all the time, but rarely lift them. It's tolerable now, but will it stay that way? I'd hate to see it get to the point where we may be forced into using all man made materials, or worse yet, possession of anything not purchased from a store is illegal. Be sure to save your receipts I guess.
Bowmo: I agree, but Shhhh..... The consequences are More likely to find you, the more people know what your actions are.
Tim: Entropy is ever increasing. Don't fear chaos, it's inevitable. From a physics stand point anyway.
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Just say they are from a turkey...you know how many DNR could tell the dif...none. I have lots of arrows fletched with sand hill crane feather I traded for at a Mojam like 10 years ago. If any one asks I just say they are Canada goose...
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This isn't a racial preference thing. It is all about the rights and beliefs of the First Nation, ie. Native Americans. There are things that are sacred to them and at least this is one we(our government) allow and we should respect them(NA) for it.
Breaking man's laws would also break your Creators laws if you know them well enough.
Beating a dead horse is up to you. It makes no difference to me. If you want to let the world(through the internet) know of the laws you break, so be it. All we are trying to do here on PA is inform. Whether or not you listen is your choice.
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I honestly wouldn't care if it's legal or not, what are the odds of someone seeing your tip overlays and saying wow those are illegal? Probably wouldn't even happen. Go for it!
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If you really must have the "look" do a google search on "Plastic eagle talons", 35 cents each.
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Crazy Crow, a PA sponsor, carries all sorts of fake talons, teeth and other stuff.
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This isn't a racial preference thing. It is all about the rights and beliefs of the First Nation, ie. Native Americans. There are things that are sacred to them and at least this is one we(our government) allow and we should respect them(NA) for it.
Breaking man's laws would also break your Creators laws if you know them well enough.
Beating a dead horse is up to you. It makes no difference to me. If you want to let the world(through the internet) know of the laws you break, so be it. All we are trying to do here on PA is inform. Whether or not you listen is your choice.
Quite the consolation prize. We'll take all your land and wipe out all the game but feel free to use Eagle feathers for your pow wow.
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My concern with a replica would be the density of the plastic not being hard enough for nock overlays(assuming they're plastic). My plan now is to carve and dye antler to look like a talon. I may attempt to acquire some buffalo horn to save the effort of having to color the antler. I'll share my results if they turn out positive.
I'm confused a bit about man's law and nature's law being one in the same. I understand if it's something we shouldn't really dive too deeply into given the site rules and all.
The items in question are no longer in my possession so to the best of my knowledge I am currently in accordance with all state, federal and local regulations.
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This might help a little. The Mesquakie people as well as others carved antler and horn to replicate grizzle claws.
Some times coloring them . They are my grandmothers people. Buff horn works great. Looks like black bear claws
done right. Antler you can boil and curve or straighten and polish out to look like Prairie griz. You still have natural
materials but no chance of getting your hands slapped. If you want a claw that looks like hawk use porky front claws.
The native peoples carved them , so dig a little deeper and create a replica.
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Thank for the tip. I always feel more confident and therefore relaxed if I know someone else has succeeded ahead of me. It's that "what one man can do, another man can do mentality."
I already carved a set to look like snake rattles. I just need to find some snakes when we head to the mountains next week. I'm only allowed one timber and one copperhead a season here in PA. It'll be my first time going for poisonous snakes, but snakes were a passion when I was younger so I'm optimistic.
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This isn't a racial preference thing. It is all about the rights and beliefs of the First Nation, ie. Native Americans. There are things that are sacred to them and at least this is one we(our government) allow and we should respect them(NA) for it.
Breaking man's laws would also break your Creators laws if you know them well enough.
Beating a dead horse is up to you. It makes no difference to me. If you want to let the world(through the internet) know of the laws you break, so be it. All we are trying to do here on PA is inform. Whether or not you listen is your choice.
Quite the consolation prize. We'll take all your land and wipe out all the game but feel free to use Eagle feathers for your pow wow.
so true
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“A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than by a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.” -Aldo Leopold, A Sand County Almanac
--So do as you feel is right, and always seek the highest standards.
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I've just read this thread and I gotta say it's a testament to the good natured sense and humour of all on here.
I had a few belly laughs as I was reading it too :laugh:.
A refreshing change from so many forums.
Del
That dead horse post had me spilling tea on the keyboard ;D
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Big snapping turtle claws are pretty impressive too..
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Up in canada here the feds are not so sticky about raptor feathers,just no bald eagles!but I think most snakes are protected.
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Am I the only one who wants to see nocks made out of velociraptor claws?