Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Predictable on July 14, 2015, 08:24:08 pm
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http://www.3riversarchery.com/Product.asp?show=rate&i=2390X
just curious to hear what you have to say about the price compared to the bow being sold.
im not saying anything about how much it should be sold for, i just wanna hear your thoughts.
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Long-standing brand, shootable design, many high-star reviews. I always say we should spend what we can afford, and trust that the universe will line up price with quality. (this does NOT always work, but I'll keep my ideals)
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Black Widow gets 1200.00 + for their bows and many people believe in them.
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Anyone that's made enough bows knows how many hours going into them.
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I paid $600 for a used centaur when I first got into traditional archery. A buddy had it and let me shoot it, it was sweet! I killed 10 or so deer with it, won several 3d tournaments, bought another custom bow and quit shooting the centaur.. 5 years after I bought it I sold it for $550, best shooting bow I ever had in my hands..
I don't regret buying it or selling it.. I'm just glad it's no longer a wallhanger...
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The Savannah is highly reviewed and Martin's flagship longbow. You're paying for top quality materials, craftsmanship, guarantees, reputation, finish, and performance. That's not an uncommon price at all for a mass produced flagship. Look at some of the higher end Bear longbows. The Bear Patriot for example is right up there in the $600 range. Howard Hill's stock bows (don't think these are mass produced) are in the $600 range. Nothin too unusual when custom bows are $1,000+
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Nothing justifies it to me. It is a machine made bow. As far as I'm concerned not even a hand laid bow is worth $600...but that's just me. ;)
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That was pure poetry right there Pat. Amen!
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I bought a savanna years ago new for $400. It's a good bow. It's a smooth shooter.
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materials + (hours x pay) + overhead = cost. I always wonder how much of other peoples' prices are overhead. I like to think I'm not wasting my time but I don't have to put a $450+ price on anything I make to cover my cost so I really do wonder.
There's always something to fix or replace, miscellaneous expenses, and ultimately a business is about profit no matter how much someone loves their job. Supply and demand do a relatively clean job in Archery as far as I've seen. If nobody demanded the bow at that price supply would be too high, meaning either production would slow/stop and become a financial liability or the price would drop to raise demand.
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I have one also. Bought it 7 or 8 years ago and have killed a few deer with it. They are good bows, smooth and quiet. There are a few custom bowyers that will build you a bow in that price range if you'd rather go that route.
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Price is TOOO high for a mass produced bow. Plenty of bowyers build custom bows for the same or less. On another note, if it's not a primitive bow.....?
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For a mass produced factory bow, it isn't worth it TO ME...
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It's worth whatever people are willing to pay for it.
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I had a funny experience with this particular bow... My good friend Jimmy shoots one and has taken deer with it. We were target shooting one day and swapped bows for a few shots. I was shooting a recurve that cost less than 140.00 brand new. I liked the savannah okay - it's a good bow. Jimmy was quite taken with the samick sage that I was shooting. He ordered one for himself and hunts with it now and his more expensive bow hangs on the wall.
I am a function over form kind of guy. I haven't seen a bow that was worth more than three hundred dollars to me. To each his own. If you like a beautifully finished work of art that you plan on handing down to your kids and you want to drop some serious coins for it, that is all good. I won't knock it. I admire all you folks that are devoted to real archery. I will say that it is possible to pay a lot of money for bow that isn't right for you.
I make bows and give one away from time to time, if I think someone is deserving of a handmade selfbow. If I were in the business of selling bows - hell yeah, they should cost a lot of money. I couldn't sell my bows and make a living at it. Somebody on here (JW maybe ?) said "it would be easier to feed your family on pickled hummingbird tongues" than to make a living selling handmade bows.
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to me,there aint a bow in this world,worth 600 dollars,but then again,my old friend nicknamed me,tightwad Todd fer a reason. :)
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Those Black-tail bows are quite fancy. $600 is a lot to pay for any bow I agree. There are many art pieces made from wood that fetch a pretty penny like Guitars, violins, pianos and the list goes on. Maybe $1500 for a bow is justified never mind $600. ???
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Before I started building selfbows I've paided over $600.00 for recurves I've paided 1100.00 for long bow once. Come to think about it I like to have all the 1000's I spent on recurves,long bows compounds boy that was a time ago.
I once sold a osge snake bow with copperhead skins on it for $ 628.00 and a drop point knife $600.00 for a factory glass bows not that all unfair.
If you were the one building it I'm sure $600 a fair price.
It all comes down to how much you want it.
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Supply and demand. Seriously. Semantics and opinions aside it's supply and demand. Whether or not it's worth that much is up to each individual.
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I couldn't sell my bows and make a living at it. Somebody on here (JW maybe ?) said "it would be easier to feed your family on pickled hummingbird tongues" than to make a living selling handmade bows.
Ed Scott makes a living out selling primitive bows... thats what he claims...
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I have sold plenty of bows. I started off cheap but I get between $300-$400 for them now. I dont think my prices could go much higher. If they could, I probably would. I like bows, but I like money too. Store bought gets you a name, reputation, and warranty... which leads to peace of mind. How much is that worth?
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I have sold plenty of bows. I started off cheap but I get between $300-$400 for them now. I don't think my prices could go much higher. If they could, I probably would. I like bows, but I like money too. Store bought gets you a name, reputation, and warranty... which leads to peace of mind. How much is that worth?
Those are a lot of the things I take into consideration. I spend my time and resources to make things on which people are willing to spend their time and resources. I don't remember all the people who've told me it taints the craft and I don't hold it against them but it's quite literally exchanging my time for theirs. There's something more than just monetary about putting hours of your life into trading for the skills of another compared to one out of a vast sum of uniform products, but those uniform products (can) carry a greater reputation than I can hope for.
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I couldn't sell my bows and make a living at it. Somebody on here (JW maybe ?) said "it would be easier to feed your family on pickled hummingbird tongues" than to make a living selling handmade bows.
Ed Scott makes a living out selling primitive bows... thats what he claims...
Ed Scott builds the most beautiful bows I've ever seen anyone build period. Would love to own one eventually but they are pretty pricey.
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Can someone explain what "buy" a bow means? O:) :laugh:
The price is simply down to what someone will pay and what they want.
I just recently finished a superb bow from semi matched (as opposed actually to book matched) Yew billets.
It's got some natural reflex still in there, the splice is barely visible, it shoots fast.
This guy doesn't want it 'cos it's not a single stave ::).
OK that's his prerogative, but he just doesn't realize what a great deal he'd be getting....
I'm sure it will find a home... I like to see 'em getting shot, not cluttering up the garage.
Del
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600$ is £380.
For those of you who say that 600$ is unreasonable then go out and buy a quality bandsaw probably two, a drum sander, a linisher,an edge sander, a disc sander, all the hand tools you will need, random orbital sander, lots of sanding belts and multiple blades for your bandsaws, a vedry good dust extraction system, a big workshop, a full spraying set up spraygun,hoses,water filters,dust filters,respirator,good compressor and booth suitable for spraying bows....Then buy yourself a whole load of exotics,actionboo,dymalux etc and spend at least a few months storing them correctly so you can actually use it without risking warping/delamination down the line. Then learn how to make 'mass produced' bows and figure out all your methods so that you know each one will be flawless. Oh and don't forget wear on all your tools , electricity, rent of your workshop, insurance.....
Have I made my point?!? I am close to starting selling bows like this and boy oh boy when it actually comes to doing it there are many, many costs. 600$......sounds about right to me.
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Mike I'd give you a 'like' if they had 'em on here.
Del
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Mike, you just about summed up why I plan on never going bigger than custom one-at-a-time hand-tooled bows. People act like it's so much more work than grinding out mass produced pieces but I'd bury myself trying to set all that up. Hatchet and rasp work with the occasional power sanded gluing surface suits me just fine as long as that's what people want. I need a better workshop for sure but for me it's about elbow room and storage ;)
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Is $600 worth $600?
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The point being that $600 is too high for THAT bow compared to a custom bow in the same price range where you have contact, feedback, and choices of your input. No one says building bows doesn't require time, talent, and equipment. However, if you have the ability to mass produce a bow like the Savannah, it seems the price point should be lower. But, if you can get it, especially from people with little experience or few other choices, it would be worth it to them. Until they understand that there are better options in that price range. Sure, it is worth whatever anyone will pay for it. I still don't see why it is even posted on a primitive archery site. I'd rather be looking at your bows, and I have never questioned what the bows on this site are worth. :)
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For the most part,i think what we do here one of a kind art work c/w function and artwork. Has certain value to the right person.from stump to shooter takes a lot of work.i think most folks here are driven by passion rather than monetary gains like any true"starving artist".i think if I was building by order it would become a "job" rather quickly and I would lose interest.
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It's worth whatever people are willing to pay for it.
BINGO
Just look at what some hot shots get for self bows that look just the same as what most of us build. And a good bit of self promotion never hurt a price tag either.
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It's worth whatever people are willing to pay for it.
BINGO
Just look at what some hot shots get for self bows that look just the same as what most of us build. And a good bit of self promotion never hurt a price tag either.
Yeah I mean really. If they're selling me for $600 they're worth $600 by definition.
Plus asking the question here is just crazy because everyone here does produce their own bows. To a guy with no bow, and no means to make one, $600 ain't much to get into a nicely made bow from a name you might recognize.
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Some guys sell wooden bows on fancy sites for too much money IMO, I understand there's lots of hidden costs in running this kind of biz, but still, a lot of money.
That 600$ could buy so many tools and supplies to make wood bows, which is what most of us do anyways
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Correct me if I'm wrong I do not know a lot about that type of bow fabrication but aren't all these bows still done by hand to a certain point. It's not like they're just cut out on a CNC machine and thrown in a box for shipping. You still need semi talented craftsman to do each part of the process. Or am I wrong?
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Some are all mechanical with a touch of hand sanding at the end, some have more hands on. But none are truly hands on until you get to the customs made by a guy in his garage shop.
CNC mills have dominated the mass produced bow market for about 10 years now. New tooling and fixtures allow mass produced wood products off machines that were dedicated to steel/aluminum parts prior. Hydraulic presses are used for laminating more so that hoses and air by the commercial companies.
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Thanks Chris was not aware.
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600.00 is not a lot of money to charge for a hand made bow. If a guy just wanted to make $20.00 per hour which is very little for someone with their own tools and shop. Suppose his stave and supplies cost him $100.00. That means he has 25 hours or 3 days work to get the bow out the door. 25 hours is a reasonable time for a bow with a nice finish, handle wrap etc. If a guy has the skill to go faster and still put out a quality product he shouldn't have to penalize himeself.
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to make a fiberglass bow is a whole different skill set,,, you might have the skill to make one,, but would not be able to make a wood bow,, and the the other way around as well,,, if you figure the price of the material,, and the labor to put one together,, it is not unreasonable,, if you figure your time for cutting a tree and rasping out a fine shooting self bow,,,you might make 10 per hour,,,and your tool cost and material would come out of that,,, wood bows are a labor of love,,, really no way to but a true monetary value on them,,,, just like a painting,, how do you put a value on something that took years to develop the skill to do,, you cant,, there is a price the market will pay,, but that is not the whole story,,, if you really want to know,, buy a kit from bingham and put a bow together,, you will have a better idea of what and why prices are like they are,,
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good point Badger,, I was posting when you were,, I like your take on it
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Just for the heck of it I am doing a little bit of a time study on some bows I am doing now. They still have some moisture so I am working them down over a period of weeks but keeping track of the time. 90% hand tools with a little belt sander work around the handle and tips. I don't think using a bandsaw saves much over about an hour at the most 2.
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Actual work time on a lam all wood bow isn't all that much but the tools, surface planer, beltsander, table or bandsaw thats what runs the cost up, if you figure the stack and taper out the bow can be 90% after glueup
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I also didn't get into building bows to go from start to finish as fast as i can, i enjoy the trip
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In my recent gorging on YouTube bow-making videos I saw the Bickerstaffe bow videos and they made some really clean and nice long bows. Looked them up and they cost between 300 pounds all the way up to 650 pounds!!! They look pretty nice but the only bow I would pay that much for is Simson's Fancy Boo Backed ERC ;D.
My first bow I was when I was 16 and I got a Martin x-200 recurve for right around $200. I still have it and shoot it and enjoy it a lot. I looked a lot at the Bear bows and almost bought one a few years later. I think making my own is a lot more fun and satisfying and now the only bows I would pay money for are some of the incurable ones you guys make.
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I also didn't get into building bows to go from start to finish as fast as i can, i enjoy the trip
Exactly I take my time as well, I don't even think about time. It's fun to go your own pace.
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On balance, an average quality mass produced bow should have better performance, consistency and reliability than an average hand-crafted bow because of the engineering and quality control that goes into mass producing a product. That’s partly why armies around the world use mass produced weapons rather than hand-crafting them. So if that’s important to you then yes, such a bow is worth $600.
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Manufacturing and individual handcrafting are two different worlds -- and that's a good thing.
Don't forget costs for hired labor, advertising, packaging, distributor and dealer markups, printing, product liability insurance, worker's comp insurance, health insurance, supplier qualification, accounting, inventory control, shipping and receiving, waste disposal, QA, and nowadays IT.
If you're showing 10% profit on anything these days, you're an industrial powerhouse.
On the other hand, if you're chipping away at a bow with a hatchet, you can give it your undivided attention.
I asked before whether $600 was worth $600. That is what I meant.
Or maybe I should have asked, Is $600 worth a bow?
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There is another thing to consider
However much i love to shoot the bows i make..(and making them too) when i go for a field target meet i grab my Border Black Douglas.
There is a difference in precision between hunting/stumping and ringed targets.
A perfectly acceptable "huntingshot" can make me drop 2-3 rankings and the bows i make atleast are not fast enough and more importantly not consitant enough depending on temperature,moisture and so on,an x or y-fiber bow can take all that and be consistant.
If i go out to have fun with my friends i take "my bows"and i have a couple of spares for them too :D But depending on what you use them for,sometimes 600 is cheap.
My take on it :I dont like wearing rainclothes either,but sometimes its the best choice :laugh:
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Who knows; I may spend $600 on a bow someday, but I will not pay $14/lb for a T-bone steak. The cost of almost everything is up, and I don't know about the rest of you, but my wages aren't keeping pace. Good thing I like pork chops. ;)
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$600 is pennies compared to a self yew warbow made by somebody who knows what they're doing. You can triple that price straight off the bat. And that's for a bow that has built in obsolescence and could explode at any moment.
$600 for something that's reliable and consistent like this one seems cheap to me.
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I don't think I've seen anyone mention retailer mark up. 3rivers is probably buying that bow for around $300. The retailers that I'm familiar with take what they pay for an item and multiply that cost by 2 - 2.5. That's how they price everything.
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Dealer mark up is already pretty much factored in by the "manufacturers suggested retail price". Most places sell for considerably less than the MSRP. For example, Martins MSRP may be $649 but you can get on 3rivers and pick it up for $599. I'm sure they're still making a killing, but it could be worse! The distributors are doing the manufacture a great favor by pushing mass amounts of product into consumers hands. It's like a partnership, they need each other and they both want profit.
Idk... To me, an example of mark up is when the hoarders line up at Walmart at 4am to buy bricks of .22lr that costed $5 to produce, bought by Walmart for $10 and sold at an MSRP of $25.... Then sold online or at shows by the hoarders for $100.