Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: nakedfeet on August 16, 2015, 01:28:05 pm
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I'm about to cut up a bunch of staves and put them in the firepit.
Why would I do such a thing?
Because I'm sick of this %#$&ing @&% ~#&$ wood!
Last summer I came across a sugar maple tree that had fallen. It still had green leaves on it, and the wood looked sound. It had probably fallen due to a combination of wind and a scar/hole weakening the tree close to the ground, but all of the wood above that looked sound and strong. I cut it up, split it up, and have had all of the staves drying in my basement for over a year.
I let a few months go by and I grabbed one of the staves last fall. Roughed it out, made sure it was dry, and got to work. Started getting after it, tillered the bow most of the way out -- and then set it aside because it became apparent the draw weight wasn't going to be where I wanted it. Pulled it back out of the Corner of Shame this spring, started tweaking it, and then saw a series of frets on the bottom limb, seemingly coming from nowhere. Put it down to less than perfect tillering and moved on. That "bow" was 66", just under 2" at its widest point, but maybe width-tapered a little too aggressively for the desired weight, and may have contributed to the stress on the belly.
Take two: Brought a roughed-out stave to the Marshall gathering with me, and went to work on it most of the weekend there, doing (relatively) little shooting in comparison. A little shorter, about 64", but I intended to let it bend through the handle a bit -- narrowing/stiffening that portion just a bit. Got a good bend started while at the Rendezvous, brought it home and tillered it out there. The tiller is not bad, if not perfect. At about 26" I notice a fret on the outer limb, and later another, on the inner limb.
I was willing to accept that this was down to poor tillering again, and decided sugar maple needs to be babied. Keep the next one long. Keep it wide. Consider trapping it, aggressively. Tiller carefully, and smart.
After that one I pulled another bow from the Corner of Shame that was begging to be finished up. A hop-hornbeam that started with a lot of promise, but was really whip-tillered and therefore was going to come out below weight when I tillered it out. Again, the mid-limb probably too narrow for weight due to over-aggressive width taper (a bad habit of mine). But the result was a pretty nifty little bow. Only 37#@ 28", it actually tosses an arrow pretty good. Is the tiller perfect? I'd argue, no, it's not. But considering where it was, I'll take it.
Did it fret? No, it did not. The limbs settled just about even when unstrung, and the tips actually retained just a hint of reflex.
So with that one done, I tried maple bow no. 3.
Longer: 68". Wider: 2 1/4". Better width taper, with more wood at mid-limb. Trapped.
Roughed it out a week or two ago. Got it bending. Heated out some twist. Evened out the limbs. Got an initial impression of the bend. Tempered it and added in some reflex, about 2 1/2".
Yesterday I got it to a low brace and started pulling on it. Limbs look even. Bend looks good, though will of course be refined through tillering. Pull it to 12 inches, then 14, then 16. Check it over. Give it a few pulls to 18". Still plenty of weight to play with. Still retaining 2" of reflex.
Check it over, and there it is: A single fret at mid-limb on the top limb.
Is the wood too thin there? No. Is it bending too much there, with my eyes as the judge? No. Is the tiller perfect yet? No, but getting there. And this is on the limb that, so far, has taken less set.
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I know that a fret is a sign of an imperfect tiller, and by no means would I claim to have ever produced a perfect tiller. It's just that this particular wood, from this particular tree, seems to have absolutely no tolerance to imperfection whatsoever. A fret at 18" and low brace, with hardly any apparent set.
I believe sugar maple can make a good bow. I even believe that I could make sugar maple into a good bow. But not from this tree. Someone at Elm Hall pointed out that it was a wind-fall. I think that's a big thing there. The wood from this tree does not want to become a bow, and that's one of the few things I've learned about making bows: If a piece of wood doesn't want to become a bow, you can't make it. That and: It's just a piece of wood; there are always others.
So this is a matter of three strikes and you're out. I don't see the point in trying again, and then again. I can go longer, yes. I can make a 6ft+ monster that I'll never realistically get much use out of. I can go slower yet, and more carefully. I can do better.
Or I can stick with what I know works: For my neck of the wood, ironwood (hop-hornbeam).
So sayonara, stack of sugar maple. It's been fun. Now let's make a bonfire out of you. Let's light the night sky and tell the world of my failure. And hopefully toast to future success.
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Use friction to start the fire 😃
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The friction this stack of wood has created with my ego might be enough to get it going!
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Ha! I could speculate a dozen reasons. The fact is its not good bow wood. 68" x. 2.5" doesn't require near perfect anything.
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Burn away! We do the same with our Water Maples.
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Just use the fire to heat treat some arrowheads :)
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I'd use it on back-strap steaks.
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Doesn't sound like you will be cheating yourself outa much of anything. And maple is a mighty find firewood, windchecked or not!
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Sugar maple will fret, it needs to be worked a little more carefully than osage or hickory. If you had frets all over the limb I would say trash it. Because the frets seem to be isolated I would say it is tillering. This is a good opportunity for you to really fine tune your tillering. Check the mass on the bows that you allready completed and see what it is. We have a phrase around here we quote often but not often enough. " never bend the limb any further than what it takes to expose an area that needs work, this might mean two inches of bend. Try again!!
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Ha! I could speculate a dozen reasons. The fact is its not good bow wood. 68" x. 2.5" doesn't require near perfect anything.
Agreed 100% ... I've built poplar lumberyard bows at those dimensions. There's obviously something fishy going on there. Maybe it's actuslly soft maple? Regardless it's firewood.
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If i knew ya was starving for good wood i woulda brought some up to elm hall n gave ya some :-\
Sounds like bad wood to me....the one u had at marshall seemed to be designed and bending good enough for it not to fret...gotta be majority woods fault imo. Maybe u mis identified cjtting it and its a soft maple? ???
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Sugar maple is mighty good wood for the smoker! 8) 8) 8)
OneBow
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My thoughts as well bad Chris.
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I'd use it on back-strap steaks.
This might be the best idea yet!
Sugar maple will fret, it needs to be worked a little more carefully than osage or hickory. If you had frets all over the limb I would say trash it. Because the frets seem to be isolated I would say it is tillering.
It definitely is tillering, but I think even the most experienced bowyers would pull their hair out with this particular stack of wood. I simply can't believe this one fret. It makes no sense to me and I'm simply astounded that the wood is that unforgiving.
I'll follow up with a post with some pictures and expand on things a little. It's possible better eyes will see what I'm not seeing -- but I really don't think so.
If i knew ya was starving for good wood i woulda brought some up to elm hall n gave ya some :-\
Sounds like bad wood to me....the one u had at marshall seemed to be designed and bending good enough for it not to fret...gotta be majority woods fault imo. Maybe u mis identified cjtting it and its a soft maple? ???
I have a handful of good staves to pick from now, so I'm not totally lacking.
I don't think it's a misidentification issue. My tree ID is pretty good, and it'd be pretty hard to confuse sugar maple with much else. The closest things to it are Norway maple (http://extension.entm.purdue.edu/CAPS/pestInfo/pics/big/norwayMaple.jpg), which doesn't grow wild here anyways (but is planted widely as an ornamental); black maple (https://www.extension.iastate.edu/forestry/iowa_trees/tree_id_photos/MAPLE_BLACK_leaves.jpg), which is rare here (grows further south mostly), and I've only ever seen a few of. Both, to my knowledge, are still classified as "hard maple" though, and I can generally tell the difference just by the leaves. Sugar maple is the most abundant tree in Michigan, so most of the time it's a safe bet if it's a maple leaf anyways. The "softs," red (http://www.nrca-railroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/red-maple-leaves-1024x682.jpg) and silver (http://www.sfrc.ufl.edu/extension/4h/trees/Silver_maple/Silver_maple_leaf_lg.jpg), are noticably different.
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If you use wood that has been on the ground you take your chances.
Sometimes the leaves don't turn for a few days on a tree that is down.
As for frets, if they are all over the limb it is a design issue...too short, too narrow.
If frets are localized it is a tillering issue.
Jawge
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Alright, here are a few pictures. I'll try to approach it as neutral as I can, and you guys tell me if anything looks more-obviously-wrong than I can see.
Some of the pictures are flipped, being right in one photo and left in the other, but hopefully you can make sense of it.
Let's play Find the Fret! (I already said where it was, but if you missed that in the OP, instead of going back and reading, look for where it's bending too much.)
Just started bending, with only some twist removed.
(http://i.imgur.com/48zV3aX.jpg)
After tempering and adding in some reflex.
(http://i.imgur.com/oGdK9tZ.jpg)
Last bends with the "long" string.
(http://i.imgur.com/r4sFxKV.jpg)
Low brace.
(http://i.imgur.com/Kh0eamG.jpg)
"Short" string pulled to I think 14".
(http://i.imgur.com/vPSO9w2.jpg)
This is a good opportunity for you to really fine tune your tillering.
It may well be that saving some to use as a teaching tool wouldn't be a bad idea. I've read many times that black locust, for instance, is a bowyer's best teacher.
In my (perhaps unfounded) opinion, these particular pieces are just bad. I'd wager more unforgiving than locust, but I don't know. It's just that on all three the tiller isn't that far off, again, in my estimation.
Plus, on top of that, many of the staves are somewhat sub-par, with twist etc. It'd be a lot of work with the heating and twisting and in some cases backing just for a lesson. Plus, if black locust is a teacher, there is black locust around -- I just need to find some that's not in places like public parks....
Check the mass on the bows that you allready completed and see what it is. We have a phrase around here we quote often but not often enough. " never bend the limb any further than what it takes to expose an area that needs work, this might mean two inches of bend. Try again!!
I really should get a scale and try tillering by mass. That said, I already follow the "no set tillering" method that you've outlined many times pretty carefully. It was one of the easiest ways to see good results as a beginner/novice. In this particular case I was able to pull to 16 without losing any weight, but when pulled to 18 I'd lose just a bit. So I was basically just working on weight reduction. It had only been pulled to 18" about 6 times.
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I see nothing alarming Tony. You have one limb stronger than that other, but no bad bending portions. If a wood is so sensitive that it has to be super babied to coax a bow from it? Its not good bow wood and absolutely nothing I'd carry when it mattered.
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Just my 2 cents. I don't know of your experience with building bows. I know that the failure of many people here is due to going faster than you should. I am super slow, and over careful. I wouldn't go so far as to call me a bowyer yet. Go slow, and don't try to work through your frustration. Learn to stop when things aren't working so you can get a fresh set of eyes on the issues.
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In the bottom photo, Nakedfeet, the left limb is really stiffer than the right limb. Looks like the stave is rocking to the left. Most of the bending on the right limb is taking place mid limb on. Not much bending in the near handle wood.
I'm having trouble keeping all of these photos straight. LOL.
Don't be ashamed of frets we've all had them.
Jawge
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did the frets start before you heat tempered
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Burn it. It's done it's job. It's already made you a better bowyer.
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Yeah, those particular photos weren't the latest looks I had at it, just the pictures I had. (I tend to take them as I go because seeing problem areas in a picture tends to be easier for me.) I had gotten the limbs close to even.
The fret (singular) popped up after tempering.
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What about making arrow shafts from them ???
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Old thread here but maybe someone will catch this.
I've had some issues with localized fretting/chrysals on two of my sugar maple bows. Both were from the same tree harvested in the summer in Vermont. A 10 inch log that yielded 6 staves, so I have 4 left. The first bow I build was a flatbow 66" ntn with a pyramid design, 50# at 28". I shot it for months with no issue. After moving it to a slightly more humid climate and leaving it unstrung for a few weeks, I took it down and strung it. After inspection i noticed a 2 inch patch midlimb (lower limb) had developed a serious chrysal network. There is a tiny dip in the back about an inch above it, and i suspect that was the culprit. It did not take long for the bow to take excessive set there and I've set it aside as a learning tool. the maximum width for this bow was 1 and 7/8" at midlimb. :fp
My second sugar maple bow is 65 inches ntn and 47# at 28". I recurved the last 6 inches and it holds about 1.5 inches of reflex after about 100 shots. I kept the bow fairly wide, 1 and 3/4" inches at midlimb. I was feeling redeemed in the sugar maple camp and the bow was shooting really clean and fast. The other day after stringing it I noticed a localized fret on the lower limb, again. It's smaller than the last patch and the bow has not taken any noticeable set. I have not shot it since but was thinking i would go ahead and put it through the paces and see what happens. Bad idea?
Besides an overstrained cherry bow, I have not experienced this issue with other white woods. I mainly work eastern hop hornbeam and elm, but I've had some great luck with hickory and white oak staves as well.
Both of these maple bows received a decent heat treatment on the belly and showed no obvious signs of tlller imbalance. I've felt some frustration with sugar maple as both these bows did not seem close to be strained to the limit during the build. I'm hoping to use some of the remainder for cores in a horn/sinew bow.
Anyone else seem to run into this with sugar maple? Any suggestions? I'm wondering too what people's experience is with shooting bows after developing minor chrysals, should i assume they will fail dramatically if shot?
I've heard such good things about it and there's plenty around where i live!
Thank you!
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10 years since this post. I have very mixed luck with sugar maple. I love the way it shoots when it doesn't fret. Most of mine is kiln-dried from the lumberyard.
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I've only made one bow from sugar maple. It was a short 50# bow with about a 25" draw. It was more than 20 years ago and I don't remember where that bow went.
I have made quit a few from red maple and had no trouble with frets. I made all those maple bows 66" NTN, 2-1/2" wide at the fades, straight tapered sides to 3/8" tips, about 7/16" thick from fades to tips. They were all near perfect tiller right off the band saw. Finished up on a belt sander. Draw weight averaged in the high 30s.
I have made two lighter bows from loblolly pine that did not fret. They too were about 7/16" thick with lengths appropriate for the draw length. They were narrower and came in at 25#. Neither had any frets. Both took about 2" of set from their pretillered condition.
For any wood, for a given amount of bend on a given radius, there is a particular thickness above which damage will occur. A piece of maple or balsa 1/16" thick might bend 180 degrees without damage. A sample 1/2" thick probably would break before reaching 45 degrees.
Thickness needs to be appropriate for the amount of bend. Draw weight needs to be the result of width.
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Yeah, this is an old thread, but it dredges up some names I miss seeing. Some I will reach out to and re-connect with. Others can no longer be reached.
But the information and the learning is still right here, a legacy for all to access. Reminds me once again of the debt we all owe Sleek for resurrecting the forum.