Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: PEARL DRUMS on August 28, 2015, 02:41:45 pm
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We all love to look at snaky bows. But just how efficient are they? My thoughts are simple. Say a guy makes a 66" ntn snaky bow with a 4" grip and 2" fades. We know those limbs cant possibly be 30" each like a straight stave would be. If it were possible to grab a tip and stretch the snake out of the limbs they could be up to 10" longer. So my question is this: Is there more hand shock in snake bows because we can end up with say a 1/3 more weight in each limb just because of the snakes? Are they inefficient? The finish thickness wont change at tiller, so the mass theory is out the door.
A fella made a glass snake bow from scratch. It looks cool, but it has to be inefficient and heavy. Doesn't it?
Food for thought
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I guess it depends on the degree of snake involved pearl
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I agree bub. Even the slightest of wiggles can easily add a few inches to each limb.
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Maybe the glass is half full and you could make a short total length bow more efficient because it would have more working wood?
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Don't belive so Aries. The bow bends on the same plane regardless of snakes, so it requires the same amount of working length, including wiggles.
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What about the wood being able to distribute stress out over more total wood for a higher stress design, but the length of the bow could be shorter?
I know this isn't the case I would reserve high stress designs for premium straight grained wood, but in theory?
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Interesting. I never thought about the limbs being longer because of the snake. I imagine it might have some effect on extremely snakey bows, but on the milder ones, I doubt it makes much of a difference. The bulk of the extra mass would be in the working limbs where its not as detrimental and the tips could still be made super light. I figure at worst it'd be about like a slightly overbuilt bow. Of course, I haven't made any snakey ones yet, so this is all just theory on my part.
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What about the wood being able to distribute stress out over more total wood for a higher stress design, but the length of the bow could be shorter?
I know this isn't the case I would reserve high stress designs for premium straight grained wood, but in theory?
The bow limb needs lineal length to perform, what it does side to side wont make up for that.
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Ive always wondered this too. I havent built one yet but Ive admired quite a few. It would be interesting if someone attempted to make a snake bow at "actual length". Say you want 30" working limbs, take a string 30" long and lay it out along your centerline and mark the end. It would probably look pretty funky depending on the degree of snake in each limb. Tillering would be interesting to say the least!
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Im building one this weekend. I just finished up a straight bow that will be of equal length and draw weight. Im most curious to see the mass weight difference.
Andrew I don't believe a guy could get away with that. I believe it would explode in a million pieces. The limb is pulled from point A to point B. The wiggles in the width cannot stretch out as its drawn, so they cannot make up for needed length.
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Yes I think more shock and less cast. Because you are adding weight to a certain length that will produce shock and rob cast. That being said my hat is off to the guy that can follow a snaky stave and not have one patch on it . It bends beautifully and has the appealing look of a master bowyers work. It has been said on these sites for a long time speed is not everything. That's true. But I prefer to build a bow as straight as possible and this means getting a good straight grain stave to make your job easier. You can only bend wood so much. I love the fact that we all don't have to do the same thing the same way. Besides you guys use all that snaky wood and send that old crappy straight wood to me. Arvin
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Dips, bumps, wiggles from side to side... all of them add extra limb mass, like Pearlie said. Also, we tend to stress knotty wood less when we tiller, which means those whirlygig areas are naturally overbuilt. I think the mass principle WOULD apply.. as in, it's got too much mass for what you're doing with it, not so much as a principle to follow while building it.
Also, in my experience, I'm more likely to break a snaky bow during tillering. They are harder to read.
Michael
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Good point Michael. Never considered that extra "meat" we leave around sketchy areas. That equates to even more dead weight.
All you snake lovers out there: Im not saying they are junk and wont hunt. So don't get all defensive on me now.
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The thing I've wondered about is that the part of the bend that is going crossways, like the top middle and bottom of an "S" are twisting as much as bending when you draw the bow. I've noticed that when I'm steaming out twist in a bow there is a whole lot less grunt involved than when steaming out a bend. This makes me think that you would need even more wood for a given draw weight.
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Im building one this weekend. I just finished up a straight bow that will be of equal length and draw weight. Im most curious to see the mass weight difference.
Andrew I don't believe a guy could get away with that. I believe it would explode in a million pieces. The limb is pulled from point A to point B. The wiggles in the width cannot stretch out as its drawn, so they cannot make up for needed length.
In theory you could picture a yumi with wildly asymmetrical limbs but i don't think it works in practice i know it is a lot harder to get the thump out of a snakey bow at least for me
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Be nice if that singer song writer Will h chimed in
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How effecient is a big block motor with an 8-71 blower sitting on top? Not very but looks bad a$$. :D Sometimes it's just the "cool" factor that makes me build a certain bow.
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I agree, PD. Snaky might mean inefficient but The cool factor over rides it. :) Jawge
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There cool, no doubt. It just never dawned on me how much extra weight must be in each limb, varying degrees of snake dictate that of course. I considered a cooked spaghetti noodle. You can make a sweet looking 6" long snaky shape with it = a hypothetical 28" bow limb, or stretch it back out to 10" = equals enough wood for another half limb packed in one. That's when the light went on, and that's rare :)
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Wouldn't it just be the same as a wider straight limb of the same length? The width is just distributed differently. I bet if you compensated the same you would with wide limbs, making them less wide, or thinner, etc etc, it would work out the same.
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Over built bows aren't efficient either, they just give you a since of security
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I know my snakey bow shoots real nice :)
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All osage in Mo. is straight so im not sure....😜.. Brian
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This makes me think and I don't like that. I try not to think when I build bows so I'm not qualified to comment. I just get out the tools, grab a stave and roll the dice. Does seem that you have a point about the extra mass Pearly, that part I can understand.
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I think that the amount of mass added by snakes is not enough to significantly decrease performance. Long bows are generally sweeter shooters up to a certain point, so it might have some effect but I don think it is much.
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... they are junk and wont hunt...
Quotes out of context are fun!
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Wood is wood. I would think if it were tillered properly that there wouldn't be any difference.
As a side note. In reviewing some of the hollow limb designs that have been designed by Simson I'm wondering if all of our bows aren't overbuilt.
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well ,, if you shoot it through a chrono,, that will tell you alot,,,to compare it to what a straight bow should shoot like,, if you feel the mass is too much ,,wood allowing you could go more narrow or shorter to see if you can get it to shoot better,,,,, but might blow up as suggested,,,so very interesting question ??? I think they are more challenging ,, I have a snakey bow I have been working on,, had to wrap the curves in two spots, it is whip tillered,, thought it would shoot like a dog,, put it through the chrono and it shot pretty good,, for what I thought was maybe too long for the design,,so I am confused,, :)
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On the few snake bows I've made I measured the limbs with the curves. I didn't put much thought into it, just figured it was more accurate for actual limb length.
One of them shoots not so great, but I have a super snaky vine maple bow that has very little hand shock. I'm into all sorts of bows now, but the snaky ones are what really brought me to this craft
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Lots of conjecture but how many of you guys who say a snaky bow will be an under performer have actually made one?
I have made a pile of them, all were good performers, the ones with the special, hard, buttery osage were spectacular performers.
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Try a thought experiment in the extreme. Imagine a snakey bow where the S-curves moved two feet or more to either side so that parts of the curve were almost parallel with each other, yet the tips still line up with the handle. Which parts of the limb would actually be bending? Probably just those parts that are nearly vertical--the upturns of the curves--someone more experienced would have to tell what would happen in that situation, but any less curve or snake to the limb is just a percentage of that utmost extreme. I would have to go with less efficient, but still stupid cool, and I still want one.
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I think you are exagerating the difference in weight and the 'extra' length. When you do the maths there isn't much extra length (unless you have the most snakey stave ever). Also as said earlier you have a given amount of wood in front of you and it can store a certain amount of energy pretty much regardless of it's shape....if you don't make it work to it's full potential then that's your fault not the snakeiness. If a bow is overbuilt then narrow it.
Where I would definitely agree is when a stave has knots. A stave full of knots is very likely to be overbuilt because you have hard wood not working = extra weight.
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My take is this. I think it's probably impossible to get the mass of a snakey bow down to the mass of a straight stave bow. Although I think Mikekeswick is right that mass of wood determines energy storage, the limb shape likely also contributes to determining the maximum energy storage per unit mass.
At the end of the day I'd bet that a well made snakey bow is only slightly slower than an equal straight bow. I think on paper and through a chronograph there's probably a difference, but I'd imagine that in practice it's fairly negligible.
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I agree Ben. I've made a bunch of snakey bows and dont notice a difference. I don't have a chrono though so I wouldn't notice a difference of only a few fps.
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Why can they be very similar to a straight limb bow? Is there bending going on in ways or places we cant see with wiggly bows? This was an inquisitive thought from the start. I have no proof either way, just something about it made me think.
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Pearl you finished that other bow yet? It won't lie.i am no engineer , and do not do math much passed apples and oranges. But I have built buildings for 40 years and do understand simple mass structure. The snaky bow can not produce the same amount of energy In my oppinion . It can weigh more and that is my point. It can store the same say 50 # of draw but on release the extra mass will absorb some of the energy stored. Meaning less cast. And probably more shock. I will call it dead weight. You can't run as fast with 20# pack on your back. lol I don't mean to fuel a fire here guys. Just me thinking. Boy that could get dangerous . Arvin
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I did Arvin. I built and shot it in this weekend as promised. I didn't weigh it yet and its not snaky as much as its wiggly, it was the best I had in my pile. Its 2# lighter in draw than its counterpart straight bow. It shoots wonderful, has the typical "hand shock", if you want to call it that. All in all? I cant tell a difference, although there has to be some in there.
One thing I will say. The bows thickness taper is right where it should be, so the wiggles are not doing any work. If such was the case the limbs would be noticeably thinner. Id guess the wiggles added about 2-3" per limb. I'll post it in a few days.
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Guess it depends on what you call efficient. I have made a bunch and they all shot well ,no more shock than any other and was efficient enough to kill deer. ;) :) that's how I gauge efficiency. ;)Never gave it much thought as is normal for me building bows. :o
Pappy
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Point taken Pappy ! You can't eat speed. Well coming out of a bow and arrow. ;) Arvin
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I'll post it in a few days.
Yes, please do. I wanna see it!
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I think you are over thinking it a bit pearly. I can't tell a difference in my snake bows and my straight bows. The difference in length is in significant IMO.
I just took a string and followed the curves exactly on my most snakey one and it added an inch and a half per limb. So my 60" bow is actually a 63" bow. I agree with you that they are like lottery tickets as with any character bow. Sometimes you win sometimes you loose. But I don't think they aren't good performers and good everyday shooters. I still go back to Miss November regularly every after four years and four seasons of hunting.
(http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a439/willharrison347/043626DE-2208-43C7-8B78-B1AAB2067653_zpsyeyzt5ar.jpg) (http://s1035.photobucket.com/user/willharrison347/media/043626DE-2208-43C7-8B78-B1AAB2067653_zpsyeyzt5ar.jpg.html)
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That's a beauty, Will.
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Here's a set of billets I'm working on right now. The snake I'm them amounts to less than an inch per limb.
(http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a439/willharrison347/93B2345A-51D9-4E60-9136-FEDA587F989E_zpsvxesdv2m.jpg) (http://s1035.photobucket.com/user/willharrison347/media/93B2345A-51D9-4E60-9136-FEDA587F989E_zpsvxesdv2m.jpg.html)
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Doin' some sisters eh" Will? :)
Nice clean set, should make a good bow in your capable hands.
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I think you are over thinking it a bit pearly. I can't tell a difference in my snake bows and my straight bows. The difference in length is in significant IMO.
I just took a string and followed the curves exactly on my most snakey one and it added an inch and a half per limb. So my 60" bow is actually a 63" bow. I agree with you that they are like lottery tickets as with any character bow. Sometimes you win sometimes you loose. But I don't think they aren't good performers and good everyday shooters. I still go back to Miss November regularly every after four years and four seasons of hunting.
(http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a439/willharrison347/043626DE-2208-43C7-8B78-B1AAB2067653_zpsyeyzt5ar.jpg) (http://s1035.photobucket.com/user/willharrison347/media/043626DE-2208-43C7-8B78-B1AAB2067653_zpsyeyzt5ar.jpg.html)
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I think you are over thinking it a bit pearly. I can't tell a difference in my snake bows and my straight bows. The difference in length is in significant IMO.
I just took a string and followed the curves exactly on my most snakey one and it added an inch and a half per limb. So my 60" bow is actually a 63" bow. I agree with you that they are like lottery tickets as with any character bow. Sometimes you win sometimes you loose. But I don't think they aren't good performers and good everyday shooters. I still go back to Miss November regularly every after four years and four seasons of hunting.
(http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a439/willharrison347/043626DE-2208-43C7-8B78-B1AAB2067653_zpsyeyzt5ar.jpg) (http://s1035.photobucket.com/user/willharrison347/media/043626DE-2208-43C7-8B78-B1AAB2067653_zpsyeyzt5ar.jpg.html)
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Beautiful, Will. You are very talented. Jawge
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I have made one super snaky bow that I remember, most of mine have been gentle wiggles like this one;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/nolland%20bow/snakeyfulllength.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/nolland%20bow/snakeyfulllength.jpg.html)
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Well that did not work. Will that is deserving of bow of the month for sure. Beautiful bow. Nice deminishing mass. Tips not to heavy. I could go on and on about the great things in your bow. But 1 inch is 1 inch. Tape one more inch of wood to the ends of that bow and see if you can tell a difference. Now you have added two. ;D seriously great bow but I think the question was does the extra length affect performance. Not to the degree that bother some of us but maybe others. I think I seen that bow at Pappys and that is why I made the comments about your success with the deminishing mass. I feel and see that before I shoot one. Job well done. Arvin
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I guess I really don't understand, lets say you make a bow 62 n-n and it shoot well and performs well then make the same bow except 66 n-n will it not shoot well if design is good and take off any wood that isn't needed . ??? :-\
Pappy
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I completely understand what Chris is saying, but it just doesn't fit me. Not sure I will ever be able to shoot to the potential present in these weapons so the relatively small discrepancy mentioned doesn't bother me. For me, there are way too many variables in this game to focus on one as a game changer. Sure, the numbers might play out on a machine with high tech sensors, but in my hands it just won't ever matter. Still, good thoughts.
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It would perform well pappy. But, if you made that same 66" bow and only allowed 62" of it to work while the rest was left stiff. What would happen?
I never said they wont kill deer, shoot well, have hand shock or perform poorly. But extra mass is extra mass, something has to be going on to make them shoot nearly the same as a straight limbed bow. We nit pick tip width, yet an extra 1-2" on each limb doesn't matter on a wiggly bow? That seems counter intuitive to me.
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Ya Scott lots of folks have lots of reasons for doing what we do, just high performance ant one of mine and as you said the way I shoot it really don't matter. ;) :) Still interesting to read and have other folks thoughts, never know when a light will come on and you say WOW never though about that as it did in this thread for me. :)
Pappy
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In most cases Chris all the limb on a snaky bow is working if all goes well,just not stretched out as far. ;) :)
Pappy
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When my skill level gets to where I can build a snaky bow that performs like one of my boring straight stave bows I will build more snaky bows cause I think they are cool. Arvin
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I'd make a snakey bow every time if I could. I love em. It just doesn't grow like that often enough.
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Let's say, through experimentation and thorough analysis we can conclude snakey bows are less efficient than straight limbed bows. What then? Will you not make another one? I'm positive that most snake skins on my bows reduce limb speed by some small margin, but that doesn't keep me from adding them when they fit. Some of this is just the trade off we are willing to accept for the aesthetics we desire. I think your question is legitimate only from the context of pure performance. Very few of us on here build to that model.
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Well put stringman. Arvin
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You may not use that knowledge day to day but having it stored away in your little grey cells is like having money in the bank. And who knows, it might start affecting your day to day. Pure knowledge is never a waste.
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There is no way I can get better at this if I don't question everything, and I do. I've learned way too many tricks by thinking outside the common box. As I said from the start it was merely an inquisitive thought and question, that none of us have the answer to. I appreciate the pages of replies, hopefully a few more of ya's got to thinking as a result.
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I'm not quite understanding why you wouldn't view a snakey bow as the equivalent to its straight version only on a shorter package, all of the same wood is there and should be sharing the load of the bend equally in my mind.
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That's just it, we don't build them shorter to compensate for that extra few inches, like Will measured. If we want 64" ntn, that tape is stretched straight across on either bow.
I'd also agree with most, they shoot like all other similar bows to me as well. But, I would also say that I could shoot 10 osage flatbows from the same builder that are 45-52# and 63-67" and they'd all feel the same to me as well. So is that a good measuring tool? Probably not. We need a speed checking macheen and two very like bows in length and draw weight and shape, less front profile of course.
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From what I have seen you cannot stress a snaky bow as much as a straight limb bow. When you do there's the risk that the back will start to develop stress cracks along its length from what seems to be the need for the limb to straighten itself out
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From what I have seen you cannot stress a snaky bow as much as a straight limb bow. When you do there's the risk that the back will start to develop stress cracks along its length from what seems to be the need for the limb to straighten itself out
Wow some just has a way with words thanks Marc................
I just got through making a bow with a little snake....and had similar thoughts and backed it with rawhide it also had a spot or two that was iffy ...I just think they are a good (not great) shooting bows that looks great ! :)
Stress moves in a straight line and has a hard time going around corners. ;)
DBar