Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: riverrat on September 08, 2015, 07:38:12 pm
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recently i found what i thought was a nice willow tree. it was dead and looked very straight. so i cut it down only to find it was full of worm type bugs. so its a no go for that one. however, im going to be making a eastern woodland style self/flat bow.was wondering on what others think of willow for such a bow.ive never made a willow bow.elm, hickory, ash, ect but never willow. read that Natives of the eastern U.S. sometimes used it.also was wondering if anyone ever used buck thorn? thanks Tony
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Dry it and use it for a bow drill set. I've never tried to make a bow from it, but it is an extremely light wood and would probably need to be very wide and very long to make a low set, hunting weight bow. I believe those willow bows had deflexed tips to keep them under very low strain when braced because the wood can't really much strain. There are a bunch of sweet buckthorn bows that have been posted on the site.
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thanks going to check out them buckthorn bows.Tony
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A friend of mine made an 85lb willow elb. It can be done!
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I read awhile back that there is a preserved willow bow in some museum. The bow was from the southwest, Mojave tribe I believe. Very light wood and very moist if cut in the spring or summer.
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It may not be a good bow wood by any standards, but make it long and wide enough and it will hold.
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I've never tried it but heard or read somewhere it was better for arrows then bows.
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The Willow used by the southwest tribes was likely not true willow.
BTW riverrat/Tony Is this the same guy from about 15 years ago?
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Willow makes great arrows. It is also the wood used for cricket bats because it can take an impact well. Strong in tension weak in compression.
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Willow makes great arrows. It is also the wood used for cricket bats because it can take an impact well. Strong in tension weak in compression.
So possibly a good backing?
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The Willow used by the southwest tribes was likely not true willow.
BTW riverrat/Tony Is this the same guy from about 15 years ago?
Not true. In Survival Skills of Native California they specifically mention that they make bows of Black Willow with another mentioning that he prefers Arroyo Willow. The bows are short with deflexed tips. Also on Paleo Planet Basketmaker has made several 40lb bows of willow. I am working on a arroyo willow bow following the methods detailed in the book.
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(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/received_10206673305497977_zpscedwp7jm.jpeg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/received_10206673305497977_zpscedwp7jm.jpeg.html)
Willow, 86lb at 32" draw length.
Don't knock it until you've tried it!
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BTW riverrat/Tony Is this the same guy from about 15 years ago?
Yep its him. Blast from the past eh?
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Willow, 86lb at 32" draw length.
Don't knock it until you've tried it!
That is a pretty bend, wow!
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The Willow used by the southwest tribes was likely not true willow.
What do you think it was, Pat? There are a few fragments of bows at the U of U museum, and they look like child bows. The only others I have seen that claim to be willow are pretty long and do have the deflexed tips.
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The Willow used by the southwest tribes was likely not true willow.
BTW riverrat/Tony Is this the same guy from about 15 years ago?
Not true. In Survival Skills of Native California they specifically mention that they make bows of Black Willow with another mentioning that he prefers Arroyo Willow. The bows are short with deflexed tips. Also on Paleo Planet Basketmaker has made several 40lb bows of willow. I am working on a arroyo willow bow following the methods detailed in the book.
I would research the ranges of those willows before stating that. Many books also say the Western Indians made bows of "White Cedar".
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The Willow used by the southwest tribes was likely not true willow.
What do you think it was, Pat? There are a few fragments of bows at the U of U museum, and they look like child bows. The only others I have seen that claim to be willow are pretty long and do have the deflexed tips.
I think they are more likely to have been "Desert Willow" which is not a true willow at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilopsis
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I can promise the type of willows we have around me will not make that war bow, or any bow for that matter. Unless of course your into 85" long by 3" wide 40# bows.
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The Willow used by the southwest tribes was likely not true willow.
BTW riverrat/Tony Is this the same guy from about 15 years ago?
Not true. In Survival Skills of Native California they specifically mention that they make bows of Black Willow with another mentioning that he prefers Arroyo Willow. The bows are short with deflexed tips. Also on Paleo Planet Basketmaker has made several 40lb bows of willow. I am working on a arroyo willow bow following the methods detailed in the book.
I would research the ranges of those willows before stating that. Many books also say the Western Indians made bows of "White Cedar".
White Cedar could be Incense cedar, or any number of juniper species. Keep in mind 29 Palms was named after Joshua trees, they had never seen palms, so thought that is what they were.
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The amount of wood on that war bow makes it very obvious its not your typical NA willow.
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It's not, it's a European willow. Few of the North American Willows are large trees like the European types. The Willow that is used for Cricket bats is a whole different animal.
My point about the White Cedar mentioned by western explorers is just to illustrate that the name used often gives a terrible representation as to the exact type of tree.
It's bad enough with the cedar names that are botanically wrong but still accepted.
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Poplar is my pet hate. Over here in the UK arrow shaft suppliers import tulipwood which is known as poplar. But its a completely different species to European poplar or "aspen". So everybody's running around shooting "poplar" arrows thinking they're all mediaeval, when its really an exotic import wood.
Sourcing actual, real poplar (populus tremula) is like finding hens teeth or hobby horse sh**.
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North American wood is "exotic"? ;)
It's kind of surprising that real Poplar is hard to find but it's the availability and greater size of the Tulip Tree that likely led to it replacing the real thing.
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It's because tulipwood grows very high, very quickly and is also one of our straightest trees.
'Cricket bat' willow is Salix alba. It still a bit shoddy for bows! Finding a straight clean flawless stave is easy though!
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When did you guys start calling it Tulipwood? That's not actually a common name anywhere else. Tulip Poplar and Tulip Tree are used.
Tulipwood to most is the tropical Rosewood species.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulipwood
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulipwood
They're using that? Must be very wealthy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liriodendron
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Dunno about wealthy. That's the stuff we get imported, and is available in every archery shop in the country. About $3 per shaft.
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Dunno about wealthy. That's the stuff we get imported, and is available in every archery shop in the country. About $3 per shaft.
My point is that I thought you were implying that the wood being used was the tropical variety which costs about $25 for a piece that might make a hammer handle.
Aspen/Poplar is widely available in the tree form. People just don't seem to want to pursue arrow wood the same way they do bow wood. I'm sure if one really wanted to make authentic Aspen shafts locating some trees would be no problem.
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My latest set of arrows were made from Aspen and it took me the better part of a year to source stuff good enough for them. The only reason I spent so much of my time to get some was because I was making replicas of Mary Rose arrows. It paid off though. Aspen is quite a bit lighter than "poplar."
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Does this mean that MR arrows were lighter than the dimensions suggest?
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No, the EWBS spec was created by Mark Stretton after examining them. He was able to use real aspen, and this is what the weight was based on.
However now that nobody can get hold of it, everybody is using tulip and as a result the arrows are being tapered too soon (right at the head down to the nock) in order to minimise weight.
The actual bobtail taper of the MR arrows is more torpedo shaped, with the taper starting almost halfway down the shaft. You can't do that with tulip, but you can with aspen.
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Or what will happen? Seems the longer taper would minimise weight even more.
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Yeah - tulip is heavier. If you keep it thicker it will go over the recommended weight. Aspen can be made to match the MR profiles exactly, without going over weight.
Some of the aspen shafts I got were 40g at full half inch parallel. The only reason to taper them at all was to make the nock end comfortable on the fingers.
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Still wondering why the tulip[ shafts aren't just tapered longer to reduce the mass... somewhat irrelevant given its non-authentic status though.
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Im going to side track this a bit. What does everyone think of weeping willow for a bow wood. I dont kniw what else it my be called but i was just wondering on that
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Probably horrible in compression and mediocre in tension. Make it very wide and long.
Search turned up that it was a species of willow native to China.
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wow the replies! lots of great advice and discussion. thanks . WILLS awesome bow! im going to try it eventually. im going back today to get that buggy tree. its light enough to carry on my shoulder and im gonna look it over as for arrow shafts.and maybe a hollowed out quiver with bark on it.Tony
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Not my bow, its a friend's. He makes bows of this weight out of stuff you'd never think possible.
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Man! Pat and Will hijacked this thread.
This might be better on the war Bow thread.