Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: lebhuntfish on September 30, 2015, 12:42:57 pm
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Most of ya'll seen my post about Christmas in September. I received an amazing gift from hunterbob, a beautiful yew recurve selfbow.
I have shot them heck out of it in the few weeks since I received it. It shot really smooth and accurate. Only thing I done to it was put Beaver ball silencers on the string. I have put an easy 300 arrows through it. I spoke with Bob and he said he put at least 200 through it himself.
SSaturday at our gathering in springfield MO I was sharing it with my friends. All of which shot a few arrows out of the bow. Everyone that shot it had a shorter draw length than I do with the exception of one. He shot a couple of times with a really short draw.
IIn the process of drawing, one of my friends (a PA member I won't mention names) was drawing the bow. He only had it back to our maybe 20in when the top limb blew apart pretty violently. Everyone was ok. So we collected the pieces one of which flew over the privacy fence. We all looked it over and didn't really come to a conclusion of what happened. Plus it was starting to get dark on us.
I took some pictures and called Bob and we talked about it for a while. He said it was ok to post it on pa, that maybe we could learn something. So here is the pics of the carnage, can you guys help us figure out what happened?
Patrick
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_211752_zps2psd2nna.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_211752_zps2psd2nna.jpg.html)(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_211827_zps7t5c6fj0.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_211827_zps7t5c6fj0.jpg.html)(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_211845_zpsp3hurebc.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_211845_zpsp3hurebc.jpg.html)(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_212200_zps2thsqyvg.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_212200_zps2thsqyvg.jpg.html)(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_212107_zpshhipxv4t.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_212107_zpshhipxv4t.jpg.html)(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_212019_zps5xf52v0d.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_212019_zps5xf52v0d.jpg.html)(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_211927_zpssi3zczxi.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_211927_zpssi3zczxi.jpg.html)(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_212304_zps4j6weyd1.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150929_212304_zps4j6weyd1.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150916_171713_zpszgiwbkft.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150916_171713_zpszgiwbkft.jpg.html)(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150916_171949_zpsd0jdsi2b.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150916_171949_zpsd0jdsi2b.jpg.html)(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150916_171038_zps6b8wowjh.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150916_171038_zps6b8wowjh.jpg.html)(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150916_171522_zpshh0vvbme.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150916_171522_zpshh0vvbme.jpg.html)
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Yew has a couple of issues that crop us some times. The rings will sometimes delaminate from each other, not always right away but after some shooting. Another thing is that yew is often sawn instead of split, it usually doesn't cause an issue but does leave an area not as strong as if it were split. I don't like yew below about 10% moisture if I can help it. The tension fibers get a lot weaker as they dry out.
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In the 3rd,4th and 5th picture there is a dark line/crack. Is that a check that was filled? I'm thinking that if that was an existing check it would indicate the grain direction.
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Thanks fellas, I don't know a bunch about yew but so far I've learned a good bit already.
DC, you are correct that is a filled check in the back. It didn't go all the way through. It was linear and didn't run off the edge. But grain orientation seams to be shown there.
Patrick
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Only thing i can see and critique judging by one full draw pic is that the bottom limb looks to be a hair to stiff...but that was a pretty dense tight ringed piece of yew...and yew can def take some small minor errors in tillering. But like badger said..sometimes yew can just be finicky stuff. Its one of the few very small downsides to it...and those little things like that about it make osage the king of bow woods...it has a higher consistency rate,and doesnt get dinged up easiky like yew does etc...
Im pretty sure the grain was faithfully followed as i saw this one in person before bob shipped it. ..im positive it wasnt because of that.
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I wasn't meaning the grain wasn't followed. I was wondering if the break was across the grain or not and I knew that checks follow the grain.
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Shame, I can't see any real faults, but one point where it broke the wood looks dark and shiny like how it is inside a crack or shake. so maybe that's the weak point, also maybe the wood too dry?
Mind it's a good quality break >:D e.g spread along the whole limb, which tends to indicate no one individual weak spot, just a catastrophic give out of the whole limb.
Del
PS.
I've just been working on a Molle' with some wood that had that sort of problem.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/yew-molle-iffy-wood.html (http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/yew-molle-iffy-wood.html)
One place it started just splitting and bucking (glued and clamped it.) One lever was so bad, it was just falling apart under the rasp... I sawed off all the belly side of the lever and glued on clean wood.
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That sucks! This was a nice bow.
like the others mentioned, make sure you store your bows not too dry (I made this mistake and ruined once three super nice bows within 30 min).
Looking at the second pic: could it be there is a grain run out? Follow the filled crack and the break? Maybe heree is initial break beginning ...
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Ohhhh man that's a heart break!
Are the edges as sharp as they look in the photos?
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I see grain running at 25-30 degrees. It broke on a grain line and that line is not parallel with the bow. Yew is almost impossible to read grain on. You never get a good look at the back and the sapwood just doesn't fully answer the question.
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I see what Pearlie sees. it looks like a slight propeller twist was straightlined. Picture gluing a bamboo backing slightly diagonally rather than linear. It's gonna pop on you.
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I built an ELB several years ago that was cut out straight, but wasn't. It hasnt broke, but man did I play hell trying to get the string lined up. It never stayed where I put it until I used localized steam and TON of heat.
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That is a shame. It looked like a really great bow! :(
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sometimes an unseen flaw ,, not known to the bowyer will make a break,,,
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It does look like the lateral grain goes diagonally across that limb which is what PD was saying. Yes, it is a tough read. That'll do it on most woods with the possible exception of hickory. Good eye, PD. Jawge
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That's what I think happened to. That it was sawn not split and the one end didn't run the grain. And I also think with one tip pointing one way and the other limb pointing opposite and causing a twisting torque. I don't know just a thought.
I do know it shot great.
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Thanks for all of the replies. Sometimes when things are pointed out to you by someone else they show up clearly. I understand what Pearl is saying. That is something I would have not thought about had it not been pointed out.
II'm with Bob though, it shot great! Thanks again, Patrick.
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It looks like the classical "Yew break" - I had the same on an yew bow last year and I couldn't figure out why.
Yew is a pussy and breaks sometimes without any reason. Maybe too dry or a delamination in the wood or a dark spot or or or...
This five-peice-breakup is a yew traditionell :-)
Sorry for the nice bow
Greetz
Cord
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That's to bad, it was a nice looking bow. :( I had one break with no real explanation and have had others I figured no way it could hold together and are still shooting, I will say it is quite exciting when they blow, they break with authority. :)
Pappy
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It does look like the lateral grain goes diagonally across that limb which is what PD was saying. Yes, it is a tough read. That'll do it on most woods with the possible exception of hickory. Good eye, PD. Jawge
You could say I've broke a few Jawgey Poo :)
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I've broken my share too, PD. At least on here we get to dissect the breaks of others. :)
Jawge
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and that is the nature of the beast..i have seen this before..in fact a couple of times..i once had one that blew when it had just a tiny pin knot inside the limb...that i couldnt see..i know for a fact that sawing has no effect on the way the bow comes out...i think the worse thing you could do is hand split the wood...it does alot of tearing of the fibers..
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I know for a fact that sawing has no effect on the way the bow comes out.
Really?
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never mind :)
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and that is the nature of the beast..i have seen this before..in fact a couple of times..i once had one that blew when it had just a tiny pin knot inside the limb...that i couldnt see..i know for a fact that sawing has no effect on the way the bow comes out...i think the worse thing you could do is hand split the wood...it does alot of tearing of the fibers..
You may want to go back to bow makers school and take a refresher course. Splitting the wood helps to assure you stay aligned with the grain. Sawing doesn't care where the grain is.
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What Pearl says. Most yew is cut with a bandsaw. If this was spit by hand I bet it would be a corkscrew.
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SORRY THERE STEVE,I didnt mean to offend you...that is the way i learned from keenan howard..
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I think, sometimes people forget there was a time when bows were made without a band saw,,I am guessing more bows made in those thousands of years by splitting, than have been cut out with a saw,, I use a band saw when I want to,,, but I can split a good bow out as well,, and actually prefer that at times,,, but I am old and set in my ways,, and the band saw is a little to modern for me :) :) :)
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Combination of punky wood and grain run off. Like Pearly first pointed out, there is some significant degree of run-out. A striaght stave cut out of a twisted tree. Now this usually isn't a problem with yew. The oldtimers past here in Oregon used to say that complete runoff from one side of the limb to another is ok as long as it occurs over a span of 12" or more. I have always figured that was referring to an average weight yew bow in a flatbow design.
Some of the wood within the break appears punky to me. Some of the heartwood has that tiny blocky structure within the break (The 7th Picture from the top). That dark line that DC pointed out seems to be the source of some rot.
Like Chris said, yew can be finicky. If someone said they were going to give me some random stave of unknown quality and character that I would have to make a bow to provide food with, and I got to choose what wood species, then I would choose Osage. If someone was going to let me pick from a dozen staves ranging in quality and character, but of all the same species, to make the finest bow I could make, then I would choose yew.
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Blacktail, most of the time you can saw out yew with no issues, but if a stave is twisted it will be somewhat compromised from the git go.
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Unless it is a truly pipe straight clean log I hesitate to saw any wood into staves.You waste a few staves from time to time but you also learn a lot about the tree/wood you are working when you split it.:)
Pappy
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The first few staves I dragged home were so twisted that it made me a little gun shy and from then on I've always wanted to see what the grain is doing. On some woods, like yew, you can't tell whats going on inside. Most of the time you would be OK to saw but be prepared to be bitten. I've found that steaming the twist out is not a big deal. Although I'm not sure if it will last, I've only been at this for a couple of years.
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STEVE.i understand about what you are saying..BUT,this might fall in the category of which pappy is talking about..where the yew i look for is stove pipe straight and consider a sapling or sucker tree...and yes people have hand split for years BUT I all so see that there is more than one way to skin a cat..SO,about the twist..wouldnt a person see the twist in the bark BEFORE they cut the tree..you see. i am not trying to raise the badger hairs up I am just saying the we see and do things differently...years ago pappy wrote an artical about him and a friend and they both made bows together but use different tools and different approach about making bows...and for me this is what i see...the other thing is that keenan has alot of different ideas about the way yew should be handled and he wont share them because of this reason... i have to run and get some juniper..this has been a great talk with you steve..i hoping to learn more..john
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BUMBER BUT
WOOD IS WOOD.
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STEVE.i understand about what you are saying..BUT,this might fall in the category of which pappy is talking about..where the yew i look for is stove pipe straight and consider a sapling or sucker tree...and yes people have hand split for years BUT I all so see that there is more than one way to skin a cat..SO,about the twist..wouldnt a person see the twist in the bark BEFORE they cut the tree..you see. i am not trying to raise the badger hairs up I am just saying the we see and do things differently...years ago pappy wrote an artical about him and a friend and they both made bows together but use different tools and different approach about making bows...and for me this is what i see...the other thing is that keenan has alot of different ideas about the way yew should be handled and he wont share them because of this reason... i have to run and get some juniper..this has been a great talk with you steve..i hoping to learn more..john
Blacktail, In most cases I saw yew myself, I just realize when I do that I might be compromising my bow. Quite a few woods that I will saw, hickory and elm are two more. Most of the time there is no issue but I do realize that it is possibly could become an issue. With a big twist as in the bow above the sawing was very risky and I believe it caused the failure.
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I wouldn't saw or split a candy cane yew pole, I wouldn't cut it in the first place.
I don't believe twist in yew trees is hard to see, I see them all the time
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Look at grain structure within the break. It has rot. See picture 7th down.
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What? Made many bows from sawn staves. That is not the issue.
If the stave is split the lateral grain is automatically followed.
You better follow it or the bow will break.
If you use a sawn stave, you have to look at the lateral grain. It can be seen even if you have to put on your glasses. Draw your pencil line down the middle and go from there.
Here. Like this.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/layout.html
Of course if the grain runs off the edge that is another problem perhaps deserving a rawhide backing.
Jawge
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I think when we were talking about sawn we got off, bandsaw sawn following the grain is fine. Tablesaw sawn or bandsaw using the fence for straight cuts is where we sometimes have problems.
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Nothing wrong with sawing straight wood, the problem is sawing wood straight that isn't.
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I've never cut yew or osage but I can understand wanting to conserve yew wood by sawing.
Following the lateral grain is imperative and whether the stave is sawn or split does not matter.
It must be done.
If the grain runs out the sides on a sawn stave, then back it and hope for the best.
LOL, not sure how much longer we can rehash this simple truth. Follow the lateral grain.
Jawge
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Except in Elm. It often alternates slight twist every year and you can have a trunk with perfectly straight bark with the top growth ring running diagonally across the back. It can take it.
HHB also takes a good deal of straightlining.
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I cut elm straight most of the time even when it runs off, I never have a problem with it, same with hickory if it runs off gently.
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I am with Jawge on this one.
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That's board bow thinking. ;)
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Chinese elm is probably the most indestructible wood I have ever seen. I have a cupid style multi curve bow I literally cut out with massive violations everywhere. The bow has been shooting for years and years. It was not intended to be a shootable bow when I cut it out.
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George, it is not imperative in all woods, and there are more than just a couple of woods that will tolerate a high degree of lateral grain runoff. Saskatoon aka serviceberry, hawthorn and vine maple are just a couple I know of in addition to yew.
This one was pushing the limits, but I am sure it was the rot that had a big part in it.
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Carson, I admit I used "imperative" for emphasis because a more forceful tone seemed to be needed. Looks like an even more forceful tone is yet needed here. LOL.
I know there are exceptions like hickory (already said that several posts back) but I still do it because Dad told me if I am going to do something, do it right. No shortcuts.
PatM, not talking boards here. That's a whole other topic.
I've made bows from the following log staves...yew, osage, elm, hickory, black locust, hop hornbeam, red oak, white oak, Aus. pine, lemonwood, American hornbeam, chestnut, maple and some others I forgot. Somewhere in the order of 2-300. That's in addition to the board bows. 26 years of making bows from boards, full log staves and saplings. It's been fun.
Once I followed the lateral grain, which you can read in almost any book on bowyery, bow making got a little easier.
So the first thing y'all do is point out exceptions. It's not the exceptions that make a good bowyer.
It is good sound technique with good toolsmanship ...knowing when to put down an aggressive tool in favor of one less so.
Yes, you can violate this categorical imperative but sooner or later ......in this case, sooner...you'll wish you did not.
The first thing I do when making a bow of any wood is look at the lateral grain and mark a line down the center of the stave following it. I do this automatically whether the stave is split or sawn.
It is just good and proper bow making procedure. It's your foundation as a bowyer. It's the first row of blocks that you played with as a kid.
Lateral grain following is how we get those snakey bows that we all love to look at and oogle. :)
Best to everyone and I wish you continued success in your bow making. Above all have fun.
Gotta go work on my porch, which is much easier thanks to the carpentry/woodworking skills I learned from my dad.
Jawge
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Thank you George.
Patrick
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I don't think you're quite getting what we're saying Jawge. In some of those woods there essentially is no set lateral grain. I could show you a pipe straight elm that has an outer growth ring that looks like someone sinewed it across the back at 45 degrees in spots and changes direction at the other end. There is no way to mark a line and lay out anything close to following this.
Lateral grain matters if the whole depth of the stave matches through the depth of the growth rings.
It IS the exceptions that make a good bowyer. That's where you are learning something new.
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Pat, so if you can't follow the lateral grain, then you don't but if you can you do.
I understand that you can get away with it with elm and hickory most of the time but just because you can does not mean you should always.
That's all I am saying.
All trees have lateral grain.
Read TBB 1.
Agreed. I have a lot to learn.
Lord willing he'll grant me the time to learn it.
Jawge
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Jawge, I only use that tecnique on staves that would otherwise be firewood. If they break I am not disappointed but when they don't break I am pleased. Chinese elm is so tough I don't even give it a second thought.
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Badger, are you saying that you only follow the lateral grain on potential firewood? Jawge
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Jawge, no, . Normal circumstances I split wood like everyone else or in some cases draw a line following the grain and bandsaw. If I have a piece of hickory or elm or sometimes yew that has some twist to it I don't want to deal with I ignore the grain and saw it out straight and hope for the best. Chinese elm I don't sweat at all, hickory I feel pretty safe with and yew I hope for the best.
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All trees have lateral grain.
Read TBB 1.
But not uniformly through the depth of the stave... You are assuming the outer growth ring perfectly reflects the whole stave. It does in clean splitting woods that just pop apart like Maple but as soon as you run into a tangled web of fibers when splitting other woods you're seeing the chaos of lateral grain changing direction.
A book on wood rather than the broad generalizations of Volume 1 will show you that. ;)
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Badger, I understand and I agree.
PatM, I think what you are saying is that elm has an interlocking grain which makes it hard to split and hard to follow that lateral grain line?
Then I agree.
Got it. Elm is the exception to the rule.
Jawge