Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: PlanB on October 14, 2015, 08:26:04 pm
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This is my third attempt at building a bow. The first two didn't last long, though they did get shot some. The last one, a sapling bow managed thousand arrows before raising a splinter and chrysaling above a knot near a tip. I was kind of proud of that one for awhile.
The one I'm working on is elm. It's about 11 % moisture right now and because I quartered the log, and stripped the bark it dried with a lot of reflex -- 6-1/4" to start with.
Here's the stave. It was 68", and I cut it back to 66".
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I had hoped to make a basic bow with 2" at the fades to mid limb and tapering to tips of 1/2". But marking it out straight didn't look like it was going to work. Too many waves in the crown, and at one point the crown sort of wandered off center. So I figured I'd better follow that with my lines. I had done that on my earlier sapling bow, but had hoped that the elm stave would be more straightforward. I hadn't planned on a character bow this time around. I wanted something that would last.
Here's where I let the lines follow the crown, and also scoot around a knot.
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This is what it looked like when I cut it out. This pic exaggerates the shape -- the top looks massive and the bottom short and narrow, but they are really symmetrical, the handle is only moved up 1 inch from centered.
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And this one shows the reflex. Same thing about the exaggerated perspective. The reflex is actually pretty even in both limbs.
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Here's a better view of it when it was rough sawn out:
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This was a couple days ago when I started beveling the belly to the lines on the sides.
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i can't wait to see what comes of this 8)
do you plan on flattening it out any before tillering?
also, to help cure the photographic lens distortion, squat down and center the camera lens with the center of the stave. this will distort the limbs by the same amount to give a more realistic capture.
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Thanks Leon. I did flatten it, mostly, after beveling. I have more to do on that to get it to rough and flat shape to the lines.
I will let it dry more before tillering. I found after this last roughing session the reflex reduced 3/4". So probably more drying to do.
Here it is being flattened on the belly and roughed to a little more bow shaped.
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Where it is now.
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I've been gradually working the bow down. Gordon's Vine Maple bow How-To in this forum section has been very helpful with this one.
The reflex has been gradually reducing as I've rasped off more wood and exercised the limbs. It's down to 4-3/4" now. More rounded in one limb than the other.
Elm is very interesting to work with -- it has a sort of rubbery feel when rasping with the sureform. Different than hard birch did on my other two bows. Maybe that springiness is why it is such a good bow wood.
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The stave I used was the narrowest of the 4 I split from the elm I had. And being wedge shaped, and trying to follow the crown, one side of the handle ended up with a bevel on it. The stave was just too narrow at the center of the log. I was hoping to los it as I trimmed the bow down, but by now that's pretty clear that isn't going to happen. So, the only other thing to do is glue on a piece to make up that corner.
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So I took a piece of rough cutoff from shaping the stave, and planed it to match the bevel on the bow, and then glued it on with Titebond 3. I used some strips of rubber cut from bicycle inner tubes to wrap/clamp the pieces together, and set them aside to dry.
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The splice glued and roughed in. It's darker heart wood unfortunately -- but it was the only piece of scrap I had from the stave that was large enough to splice in. Actually, I kind of like it, even with the knot. I think the British antiques trade calls that kind of thing "an honest patch". :laugh:
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After taking off more wood and floor tillering, I'm at this point. The limb on the right (upper limb) has more reflex, and it is more curved than the limb on the left.
Because the handle was offset 1 inch, it is also 2" longer than the limb on the left. It's also, at this point stiffer than the limb on the left. That, I know, I can alter by taking more wood off. But I want to understand something before I go further.
So, question, experienced bwyers, do you use some means of correcting the difference in amount of reflex and shape of the natural curve (like steaming, heat treating)?
Or do you tiller in a way that corrects the difference so they come out even?
Or do you expect that the tiller curves will look different for the different limbs and work with that?
And if the last, then what shape tiller would you be looking for on the different limbs?
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I'm going to moved your thread to the bows forum as you will get more views and advice there.
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Thank you Marc.
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The limbs should always bend evenly so "Or do you tiller in a way that corrects the difference so they come out even?" is out.
I usually steam the limb(s) so that they are even to start with. Then you end up with a nice even bend. You can "expect that the tiller curves will look different for the different limbs and work with that? " but I find that that I forget what I'm doing and tiller it to look even. Then I have uneven tiller.
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Challenging stage, but really good layout, it looks like!
This is exactly why I harp and harp on restraining elm staves, esp from the small diameter trees I work with.
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Thanks DC, Springbuck. I'll restrain any elm I get in the future.
I guess even if the limbs had been reflexed the same (or steamed even, DC), one being 2" longer then the other will mean the curves will look different when braced. Maybe they wouldn't with a true bendy handle, but an off center stiff handle just seems like it's going to make them different. So I gotta wrap my head around what it should look like. It's just going to have to be me using my imagination to figure what is right, instead of looking for the same curves.
I looked really carefully at the photos in Gordon's Vine Maple build thread, and I can see a difference in the limb curves when braced. That bow has got a 1" offset handle, and a lot of reflex. So seeing that that helps a lot.
Seems like if I look at each limb individually and just make sure it bends proportionately along its length, taking into account the shape of the reflex, but don't pay attention to the other limb at the time, that might help. Then the main thing would be to bring down the wood on the shallow limb when braced, until the handle is more or less parallel with the string at brace height.
At full brace it's a little different, because Gordon's looks pretty even for both limbs. I dunno, probably over-thinking. I gotta just do this thing and see what happens.
Okay, here it is now with more wood off, reflex is down to 4-1/2" (from original 6-1/2"). I'm just able to flex the limbs past the handle a bit on long string (just long enough to be taught between nocks). I think I'm on the way.
Thank you guys again for your help, and I will definitely use your suggestions in future.
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anyone,
do you have any tips for how to measure or otherwise judge even bending as you tiller with wonky asymmetrical limbs? or do most do it all by eyeball?
thanks
willie
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Considering where your at on your bow making learning curve, I would have to suggest that you get it to a HEAVY floor tiller and then even the limbs with dry heat. I say heavy floor tiller because with that much reflex it is going to feel much stronger than it actually is. At this stage of the game, trying to tiller mismatched limbs is going to be a nightmare and you will have very little chance of success if you attempt it. Josh
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Make yourself a caul like this. Don't look at the workbench :-[. Clamp the handle to the center belly side up and work your way out from the handle with a heat gun, clamping it down as you go. Let it sit overnight. Do both limbs.
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Thank you Gun Doc, DC.
Gun Doc, I've been floor tillering pretty heavy and frequently. But I'm not sure I'm understanding properly how you mean it, could you explain?
That caul (didn't know the term) is very nice DC. It looks like it was made long to do both limbs at once, but the holes mainly on one side (and what I think you said) seems that you actually do one limb at a time, have I got that right?
If the belly is facing up, it looks like that caul puts in a large amount of reflex. I'm guessing that would be for a relatively straight stave.
I'm thinking it is that way because after a stave is released the actual reflex added would be less because of spring back, so that caul has a lot of reflex..
Since I'd be going the other way -- reducing reflex, would the caul I'd need for that have fairly low reflex to account for spring back the other way?
Thanks both of you :).
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Reading more here, especially Pat B's 60" elm recurve thread in the archives has answered those questions. Lots of different shaped cauls used there, etc. Okay, got it.
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The holes on one side only mean I got tired of boring holes and haven't needed any on that side yet. I have some long clamps. I get very little(if any) springback when heat treating. Some of the reflex comes out when tillering but not much.
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What I mean by a heavy floor tiller is make sure the limbs are still stiffer than you think they should be. The more reflex you have, the harder it is to bend the limbs at floor tiller. This has a way of making bowyers keep removing weight early on only to find that their bow is now greatly underweight. Josh
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Okay DC. Looks like some do one limb at a time, and some do both, depending on the need (and the caul).
And Gun Doc, thanks that does clear it up for me. It's still very stiff in both limbs, and noticeably stiffer in the more highly reflexed limb, especially considering it is the longer limb and gets more leverage when floor tillering. So it's maybe where it should be, so far.
I will try to even up the limbs with either heat or steam, and remove some reflex for both before going further tillering with a string.
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Just even up the limbs using heat and a caul so both limbs are symmetrical before you even begin tiller. Like the other guys said, if you try and floor tiller such a highly reflexed stave you will be taking off more wood and not realising you have in fact decreased the draw strength because the reflex has fooled you into thinking the limb is stronger than it is.
My process for making bows:
1: Dry stave to near bow dimensions.
2. Get both limbs to be symmetrical using a caul and heat. Do not even begin tiller until this is done.
3. Make sure taper of limbs is perfect. Paul Comstock: Good taper = good tiller 'Bent Stick' book.
4. Begin long string tiller until limbs are bending to brace height evenly. Then brace bow to fistmele and tiller to desired weight and draw length.
I am still a massive noobe but when I stick to this process and do it in this order, I very rarely make mistakes like I used to.
Hope this helps.
Dean
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Slow even taper is life to these bows.On thickness that is.
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I do one limb at a time the same as I put my pants on one leg at a time. One right after the other. Although with bows that's not quite as important as it is with pants. :D :D
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I think I'll follow that DC! For both. :laugh:
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Any suggestions for how much reflex I should have left after heat treating?
I'm trying to figure what shape the caul should have for this one. Probably you'll need the specs to suggest it......
The specs so far:
Elm, 66" tt,
stiff handle
limbs unequal length (32" and 34")
fades 2" wide, and limbs untapered to 14" from tips, then tapered to 1/2" presently
Reflex of stave was 6-1/2" to start
Reflex now is 4-1/2" total.
Presently the limbs taper in thickness from 7/8" at fades to 3/8" at tips approx. That's measured at the side, with crown at center, the limbs are actually thicker.
I've been tapering to reduce evenly and gradually, consistent thickness side to side, taking into account the irregularities of crown, knots etc. I've left tips thick for now.
Floor tiller presently gets both tips bending to in-line with handle before stack feel says "no more" to me. I see what looks like even bend along the length of both limbs. Longer higher reflex (upper) limb is noticeably stiffer than the lower..
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I hope that Plan B doesn't mind a bit of a sidetrack. I have read the " train the limb from green", and the "adjust it when dry" approaches and I realize that the best idea might be to restrain it while green, and make less of an adjustment when dry.
Corrections to the limb are sometimes reported to "pull out" or the bend "reverts" some, and needs to be readjusted.
Do "dried from green corrections" have better longevity that those applied after the wood is dry?
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I do a lot of corrections while the wood is green with clamps and a board or other straight object, never had any problem with them pulling out, but you do get less correction when you dry it from green, as the wood will spring back some. Then again, I mostly am adjusting side to side bends, not deflex or reflex as I don't cut wonky staves unless they have a nice reflex or a nice reflex deflex design to them. I'm also not into "character" bows with a lot of reflex and deflex kinks but I like the look of them, I do, however build bows with snake and knots and like doing so.
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I like to reduce the outer limbs closer to final dimensions early on to order to get a better look at the floor tiller.with that much reflex coming out of the handle makes it tricky to tiller and brace.i like a little coming out of the handle and progressively more towards the outer limbs
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I prefer the basic reflex shape that bushboy is describing. If your a boat builder then you know how to use a batten strip to draw smooth curvature. Making a call is pretty simple. First get you a 2x? , find your center point equidistant from each end. On the flat side of the board make a mark about 3/4" down from the edge. Next move out from the centerline 16 1/2" (basically midlimb) make a mark 1 1/4" down from the same edge as you made the first mark. So now you have 3 marks. One in the center that is 3/4" down from one side, and 2 marks at approximately midlimb 1/2" lower from the same side than the center mark. Still with me? Good. The next marks are 8 1/4" away from the last two marks and 2" down from the same side. Make your marks. The last two marks are 8 1/4" further out yet and 2 3/4" down from the side. If I didn't confuse you, you should have 5 marks, spanning 66" with an elliptical curve that should yield about 2" of reflex. Now start a small nail into each mark. Not all the way flush just deep enough that the don't wiggle. Now lay your batten strip along those nails and secure with a couple more nails. Make sure your batten strip is touching all the nails and is bending smoothly and then trace along the edge of the batten strip on to the 2x?. Remove the nails and batten strip and cut out your elliptical arch. Smooth up any humps you left from sawing it out and you have a caul. Josh
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Thank you Bushboy, Gundoc, DC, Bowandarrow, Willie!
More gooder?
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Much gooder! ;D. Josh
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When I was making my caul, I layed out one side and cut it off as accurately as I could. Then I used the offcut to mark the other side. I trusted that more than my measuring.
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I left the tips un-heated in case I decided to give them a little more reflex.
But I've been thinking that as a newcomer, I probably shouldn't, because the tiller will be easier to judge if everything is fairly straight, and that was the whole idea just now in evening them up.
Where I am:
Reflex overall is now just under 2".
That's down from 6-1/2" in the original stave, and 4-1/2" where I was after roughing out and floor tillering.
I'm guessing some of that 2" will disappear after tillering.
Probably I shouldn't try to get fancy at this point. I do have 3 more elm staves from the same tree and section, and they are better than this one, so I could try something more interesting after this one -- if it works out.
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Put in a half hour of floor tillering and I think it's ready to brace. I'm going to make a string for it tonight. The reflex is now 1-1/2"
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If you lost 5" before brace makes me think the wood is not quite cured?
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Bushboy I just checked and the meter says 9% tops in places checked. Most of the reflex came out from clamping the bow to a form and heat treating. The belly is even drier, not even registering, but I imagine that's from recent toasting. Checked the meter calibration and it was good. I dunno.....
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Didn't catch that you heated out the reflex,sorry bout that.should be good to go,although I believe it takes more time for the wood to fully cure than being dry.looks like a nice stave for sure,good luck man!
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Thank you!
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Haven't seen any bending yet but one thing I notice from looking at the side view of the thickness is that your thickness taper is inconsistent. The belly needs to follow the dips and valleys on the back keeping a gradual taper thinner towards the tips. I can see thick spots and thinner spots and thick spots downwind (towards the tips) from thinner spots....those types of areas have been the death of a few of my sticks of wood until I learned that lesson the hard way....If you have a thick spot downwind from a thin spot, it will either break at the thin spot or get severe chrysals there.
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Randman, thanks. Photos can be deceptive. What you can't see are that, there are convolutions across the back as well as along it, and I'm working with those. It's a definite character bow. The tips and fade areas have also been left heavy at this point intentionally. It's just not possible to show you what's going on properly in a photo like that, and it was in a roughed out state, so yes it does look uneven in thickness taper, and probably will in a long view even finished.
But I think I have a good shot at tillering it successfully. My last bow did manage about 1000 arrows and was from a sapling with some interesting twists and knots itself. I think the one I'm doing now is easier. Here are some photos of that earlier bow -- my second bow:
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very nice bow! I like it alot
could you post a closeup of the handle?
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Glis Glis, It was a piece of wild grape vine, peeled of the rough outer bark, and fitted with a very slight amount of rocker to allow the bow's handle area to bend. Grape vine is also quit flexible anyway, so with a binding, I hoped it wouldn't restrict the bow movement.
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Then I used Bushboy's elm bark handle wrap method -- which he detailed elsewhere in a great thread here.
I basically tied the elm bark off as shown here very tight, and then trimmed off the tag end still shown, here. It did need a very small amount of glue between the end of the wrap and the place it was tied to keep it from coming out or loosening, but I tried not to immobilize the handle with glue against the bow belly. This lasted fine through 1000 arrows, which is when I retired the bow because of a small splinter on the back.
I don't have a finished photo of the handle with the arrow pass and "floppy rest" but the rest and pass were done the same way as leather would have been, except it's quite a bit stiffer with bark. If you look at the finished handle three photos up you can just see the doubled up bark arrow rest sticking out of the wrap.
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Looks good,my only concern is that you docked the limbs flush with the back?i kinda let them stand proud by about 1/2".but it's elm,they don't come much tougher.Btw your wrap looks great!good luck!
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Thanks bushboy. Your handle wrap method worked great!
Though I don't quite know what you mean about docking the limbs with the back -- ahhh, maybe you meant the knots.
The pics above are actually of an earlier bow I made out of a black birch sapling, not elm. The big knot did get rounded up a little proud, but the pic doesn't show it well. That was my second bow. It developed a very small splinter near a tip -- but it wasn't at a knot, after about 1000 arrows, so I stopped shooting it.
The elm stave bow I'm working on now is my third bow. Sorry about any confusion between the two, and going OT!
Back on topic -- here's the progress on the elm stave bow. I got it to brace, the string alignment has stayed true, and here's what the the front view looks like:
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After some work on it, I decided to try a few arrows. This was the absolute first set through the bow at 15 yards, and I was very surprised at how consistently it shot. I'm not an experienced archer, and have used mainly a 60" 40 lb Fred Bear recurve. With that, I was nowhere as consistent in grouping as this new, unfinished elm stave bow was, first try. And I used exactly the same arrows.
Actually in this group I had mixed a couple different spine weights, and it didn't seem to make too much difference. The Bear (with me shooting) would put arrows around the bullseye as an average, but not close to each other. Kind of random. But this time they weren't centered, but they really clustered together pretty good -- at least at my starting skill level. And that says to me I'll be shooting better when I tune and compensate than I could have with the other bow.
It wasn't shooting as fast as the Bear, I could tell because the arrow bury in the target wasn't as deep. But I don't really care about that for shooting in the back yard. Having the arrow go where I want is the big thing. I'm just really pleased that I could cut something out of the woods, and have a bow that seems to work better for me than something I bought! :)
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Put feathers on those arrows and that bow will shoot even better.
Congrats!
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Thanks Knoll! Hoping to make arrows after I have a good bow done.
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I'm just really pleased that I could cut something out of the woods, and have a bow that seems to work better for me than something I bought! :)
That is what it is all about! Nice work.
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Thank you kindly Carson! :)
I really like working with elm. Glad I have 3 more staves of the same tree. I'm going to try for higher draw weight next time.
I sanded the bow yesterday, and to get ready to finish it. I did find after sanding and shooting in more, it was a little under weight -- 35 lb. It was 40 after tillering a few days ago. Not much I can do about that, I guess. Next time I'll aim for higher weight before sanding and finishing. Still, I really do like the way it shoots for me, so quite pleased with it.
I toasted the back a little today.
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I found the dried bark I had stripped off of the elm tree, and tied it to the bank of the stream to soak, so I can do a bushboy style elm bark handle wrap.
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Glad to see you got this bow shooting. I think what you mean to say though is that you toasted the belly of the bow and not the back. A little bit of heat-treating won't do anything for it though. If you want to use heat-treating properly then do it before you finish tillering and do it deep
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Thanks Marc, yes belly!!! ::)
I think I did it deep, but not dark -- I took a long time heating it up but kept the gun moving. Maybe 20 minutes for the whole thing. Should it have been darker (move the gun slower, or keep it in a small area?) I will do it before finish tillering next time, (ps. I tried to watch your videos, but couldn't get them to play on my computer)
Thanks!
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I just put a hickory sapling to the heat today, it took about 45 minutes for me to do one limb. So only 20 minutes for the whole bow probably wont do much, and neither will doing it after tillering. But that looks to be a nice bow, very well done, i like it.
Cheers!! :)
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If you're not bored spitless by the time you finished, you didn't do it long enough. 1/2 hour to 45 min per limb, depending on length. You can start or stop whenever you want to pee or get coffee but don't leave the heat on it and walk away :-[ :-[. I straighten arrows at the same time. Just pay attention to the bow.
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Ahhh, okay got it, thanks guys!
ps. besides more time..... should it have been darker?
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I had a hard time accessing my video as well, didn't seem to want to load, so I modified the thread and put a link to the page and that seems to work better
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You want kind of a light brown, although anything I've done kind of turns grayish. Pictures lie but it looks to me like it could have been darker. Build a jig to hold the heat gun about 4" from the bow. When you start to see a color change move it about an inch. I'm going to guess and say you should move it about every 1-2 mins. It will be too hot to touch for long. I've never done elm so maybe someone can describe the color better,
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Until it turns a dark brown but doesnt burn and smells like popcorn.
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Okay, click, it's all coming together now. I was able to download your video Marc (for some reason I can download an mp4 but not view it streaming).... so I see...... lots of time and a stand to hold the gun, and dark brown -- way different than what I did just waving the gun around! ::) guess that was a waste of time. It did smell like roasting peanuts, but there was no wisp of smoke, like what I'm seeing in the video/.
Definitely too little too late. :)
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I think I've got it as good as I can get it, and have started to finish it off. It seems like it gained a little power since I got the first sealer coats on -- I don't know why, except when I had tried weighting and shooting earlier after heat treating it was so wet out that maybe the humidity got right into the bare wood. It was drizzling at the time. I dunno. Just seems to have more punch now and be harder to draw. And it still has that surprising shooting consistency in my beginner hands.
I have to admit that the tiller isn't textbook perfect: the shorter snakey lower limb bends more than the upper does. But I don't want to lose draw weight to try to even it up, and I'm super happy with how it shoots and feels. So I'm just going to say, it was as good as I could get at my stage (and ability to judge things). I have 3 more elm staves to improve my skills on.
I'll get more pics when it is finished, braced and drawn, but here it is just raw -- no handle wrap or arrow pass. Well kinda tempted not to put a wrap on. I like the wood shape so much. Even though I already prepared elm bark for it. Hard to decide.
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That sure is a purity lookin bow, well done!
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Thanks Bowandarrow! It's pouring out now, and starting to get dark, but here it is braced:
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nicely done, Sir 8)
in for full draw photograph.
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Okay, out in the rain...........I guess I won't melt! :laugh:
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Real nice looking bow!
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excellent :)
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Nice one!
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Thats one pretty bow, and from a challenging stave.
and I also appreciate your photographic eye for the N.E. fall scenery and color you have shared in various posts recently
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Thanks very much guys, it would never have turned out without your help. For sure.
Here's a few more pictures with this Fall bow. It's kinda hard to show the actual shape of the lower limb in a photo, maybe it's clearer here..
Today after I took these, I hit the whole bow with some fine steel wool to kill the some of the shine, and just rubbed it a bit by hand to give it a little sheen. Then shot it.... so much today that my back is sore this evening on the right side. But it feels good --, it was just so great to have my own-built bow, and it has truly improved my shooting. I even tried out my Bear recurve again, just to double check, and there was just no comparison. The new longbow out shot the other by a mile. So great! Can't wait to shoot again tomorrow!