Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: James Rodney on October 18, 2015, 05:09:26 pm
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Hey, guys. Just wanted to get a few eyes on this and see if anyone can make some suggestions as to what i should do with it. I started working on the dogwood stave i had, and upon tillering, i found a knot on the back of the bow. As i was finishing up the back of the bow, i barely knocked off the top of a knot, but it's cracking.. i'm thinking about putting a silk backing on it.. should i fill it will superglue while i have it on the jig? or should i do it while off, or even at all? it's 54 inches long, about 20 inch draw right now, i'll tiller more to get more draw. and probably around 30-35 lbs. I haven't heard any cracking or noises from it, so i think i could take it down more. I really don't know how to proceed with it, without messing it up.
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I don't think superglue and silk will save it, you said it was on the back correct?
Rawhide or sinew would probably be your best bet to save this bow.
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yea, it's on the back... :( i've worked my arse off on this to sand down to a knot on the back.. everything else fell perfectly in place. there's a knot in the middle by the riser area.. it's perfect. i do want to save it. i said silk because this is going to be for a 6 year old little girl. just wanted to be able to draw on it, make it girly for her :p
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Thats cool, Dogwoods are endangered here and you arent allowed to cut them down. I often thought they would make nice bows.
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i didn't chop the whole tree down, i just took a split from it, painted were i cut it so the tree wouldn't die. dogwoods are to beautiful to cut down completely.
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I hate to be the naysayer here, but that things toast. A backing will only hold it together long enough to endanger your little girl. When it comes to making bows for kids, you really want to be extra cautious. If I'm making one for myself, I'm all for fixing one beyond repair. For kids, I want it to be as near to bullet proof as possible. Just my .02 . Josh
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I love the way dogwood looks too, got a few staves waiting to be bows right now, darned if the the stuff doesn't love to have pin knots all over the place though, I can find mulberry with less pins!
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It looks like you are still on the long string. I'd try to low brace(3-4") it and see how it looks then.
As far as the knot on he back, it is unfortunate but that could be the end for this bow. I would fill it with super glue while drawn and then let it down to close the checks or cracks up.
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well, i did the superglue while drawn, i'm getting a 26 inch draw out of it.. and i'm shaking like a leaf while drawing it.. it's stout! i'm guessing it's drawing a good 60 lbs.. i'm going to oh very so easy tiller some more to reduce the draw weight. luckily, my father in law shot a deer yesterday, i'm going to cure the hide and play around and see if i can do a backing. :x
one question, how long does sinew take to cure, or dry out? i'm going to google how to do a sinew backing, but if anyone wants to be nice and give me a link, you'll be my hero.
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I'm your hero. It's at the top of the "bows" page.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,43246.0.html
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if it is drawing 60 #, then take the back down some growth rings to see if you you can get past the crack,,before you sinew back it,,if it is for a child then bow should probably be in the 20lb range,, as stated above make sure the bow is well shot in and not likely to break,, sinew will give you more of a chance of success than rawhide, it really just depends on the bow, and that is hard to tell from the photo,, you can always put your deer skin over the sinew if you like the look of that,, :) sinew takes several weeks to dry depending on the relative humidity,,,, :)
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We have this problem among aboriginal bow makers all the time here in Taiwan due to the wood they often use (Orange Jessamine) being all twisted and knotty. They soak the area like you did in a kind of superglue and then sand and bind it using decorative nylon thread. Always works....even on very bad fractures. If it is super bad, you can start by laying down vertical threads, glue them with something like Titebond 3 then bind over the top of these threads. It looks nice when done and works just like a brace. Try it, being sure to start the bind about an inch below the knot and work to about an inch over the knot. The thinner the nylon thread the better. If it is too thick, it will screw your tiller up and you'll need to make a mirror bind on the same spot on the opposite limb.
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Sorry James, my advice would be to start a new bow.
A crack on the back is not good and an exploding bow can be very dangerous.
We get pacific dogwood here, it's protected in BC but I've worked some from Washington state.
Lovely wood to work and makes awesome bows.
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Sorry to say but if that make it is will be very surprising to me, another thing 26 inch draw for 54 inch long bow is asking way to much from Dog Wood, why such a long draw and heavy weight if you building it for a kid, it might make it at say 20/25 lbs at 20 inch draw. :)
Pappy
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i was just testing the limits of it, for the future. i've got it down to about 25 lbs and 20 inch draw now. it surprisingly held well at that weight. I found some sinew i'm going to back it with. thanks for the link to that Hero!
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Wizardgoat, I thought the act protecting pacific dogwood was repealed?
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If you are still on the long string your 20" ain't 20".
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You could do a sinew patch. This an Elm recurve that developed a crack while hunting in cold, dry weather. It saved the bow and allowed me to keep hunting with it that year
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Wizardgoat, I thought the act protecting pacific dogwood was repealed?
It was, in 2002. How would someone from Florida know that????
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Wizardgoat, I thought the act protecting pacific dogwood was repealed?
It was, in 2002. How would someone from Florida know that????
Perhaps the interwebs.
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I'm going to attempt a sinew backing for it. just for the sake of practice. first bow, first backing. never expected it to come out as good as it did. also, It's still on the long string, i'm going to get the appropriate rasp today.. i've been using a little tiny thing. had to cancel my last trip to the hardware store, I was getting screamed at, if i recall the words correctly it was, BABE! I'm Pregnant! lol.
So my bow making day's are prob going to get cut short before i really got started. Another beautiful thing will replace it. until it goes to sleep ^_^
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Your bow is not braced yet?
Yes looks like Pacific Dogwood is free game, thanks for the info.
There's too much good yew to cut around here though, not sure if I could spare the room 😉
And congrats on the kid, my wife is pregnant as well 😀
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So i tallied up the votes aaaand....
4 folks said its either doomed or toast(5 if ya include me, and 6 for someone else i know that hasnt said anything public about it...yet)
2 said a sinew patch might get ya by for a little while
And only 1 said that sinew will give you a better chance at success than rawhide,but i didnt get the impression he was telling you thats what you should do to this piece of wood. ..
So..basically no one told you that you should sinew it,but yet thats what your gonna do??? ??? Why ask for help,and then not listen to the collective voice of experience? ???
Learn to tiller WELL,and be able to hit weight consistently before getting into the time consumption of sinew backing.
Me...id burn it and not waste my time...you can try a sinew patch and wrap over that and itll give ya a quick little "feel" of how to and learn to work with sinew...but i still WOOD NOT put that in the hands of anyone else let alone a child...who knows how deep that rot goes,and it looks like a ticking time bomb to me and it def has a short expiration date on it. Set it aside,burn it,or experiment with patching,but get a better piece of wood to learn on. Your already severly handicapped never making a "bow" yet and trying to learn on iffy wood makes it even worse...and LOTS more frustrating trying to learn. You want success asap otherwise youll get sick of it and stop trying. Learn on better wood
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So, if this wasn't saying i could do it then what was? And why is it, no matter what anyone say's, you have a very rude way of voicing your dislike of others decisions. In my opinion, I'd rather not have you post or comment anything about what i do from now on. i don't want your opinion.
You could do a sinew patch. This an Elm recurve that developed a crack while hunting in cold, dry weather. It saved the bow and allowed me to keep hunting with it that year
I also, never said that i cared if the bow "lasted" or "made it" through the trials of time. It's MY first BOW! stop acting like i know exactly what i'm doing or even talking about for the matter. i said, First bow, First backing. Practice makes perfect and i could care less if i made 100 bows and they all turned out to be S**T. as long as that 101st one came out exactly like i wanted. I'm not doing this to be a perfectionist as you seem to think you are.
Here is what i think.
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James, Being an Askhole is a good way to not get anymore help. People are here to help, until you just do whatever you want after they have taken the time to write out what they think (from hundreds, if not thousands of bows) you should do. The problem with backing this (with anything) is that the knot is already showing a crack across the back of the bow. No matter how many layers of backing you put on it, there is still a crack in the back of the bow. Look at it like bondo. It may work for a bit, but it more than likely will still fail. In your little girls hands.
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it wasn't the point that it's going to do any good. just for the practice of it. and everything he say's sounds like a smart mouth. I get it, the bow is finished, marc said i "could" do it. that little crack isn't going to do crap with a little girl pulling it. but it's all the same. every time he's commented, he's been a douche bag. i'd rather not even be on this forum with people making smartass comments.
So sorry if this offends anyone, or breaks forum rules. but learn to be constructive with your criticism without sounding like a dick.
J ~~ out.
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OR, you could take the advice. I PMed you early on and told you that some people come across as being tough, that is just the way they are. They don't mean to sound like "douchebags". There is also how you personally take it. It is a good first attempt. Sometimes the wood doesn't want to be a bow, you can't force it. And the knot won't do anything to make the bow fail with a little girl pulling on it, until it does.
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i could also not really care. Where i come from, are dealt with with a good kicking.
any way.. i don't care anymore. it's in the trash.
as is this
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Careful/ sorry for your loss Pappy
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Thanks for cleaning up the trash pappy :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Where I come from there's an old saying, "if you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question." I told you my opinion in a pretty straight forward manner and I can only assume that my post was at least one of the posts Joe is referring to. I told you straight out so that you wouldn't waste any more time and effort on something that wasn't going to work out. That was an honest effort to help you, not just mean spirited criticism. Blackhawk is very direct in his responses. Especially so in this case, but that is not to be a jerk. He distilled the replies down to their essence because you didn't seem to get the message from the tactful approach. That knot is already cracked...problem one. The bigger problem is that underneath the knot, you have a pocket of rot that is leaving that section unsupported. No amount of backing is going to hold for long. That's why I tried to help you avoid investing more time and effort into an inevitable heartbreak. If you can't handle someone telling you straight answers, you're going to find yourself getting no answers. As far as the bow goes, I've given you my best advice. As far as your attitude goes, I can only advice that you man up. Josh
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Gun, it wasn't you that irritated me. I heard everyone's advice. i accept the bow it trash. doesn't mean i can't take a crap bow and practice backing with it. i did mention that just a little while ago. if it's trash, then it's trash. Blackhawk just has a lovely way with words. I admit i was irritated about other things. and the sarcastic reply just made me have to show my tail.
apologies to everyone.
just because someone doesn't take your advice, doesn't mean it wasn't heard.
falling is sometimes the best teacher.
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Well...that's certainly a step in the right direction. When I first joined here, I also let outside issues affect me and posted an unwarranted and unacceptable reply. I didn't go as far as you did, but I did feel the need to post a heartfelt apology and learned to think a little more before posting. I do have the occasional relapse though. It is true that Blackhawk needled you a bit. After you've done this for awhile and look back on this, you can thank him for it. I'll try to explain that statement. As I've said it did not appear that the message was getting through and the thought of that bow being put in the hands of a child was more than a little disconcerting. Even though you eventually decided to make it a practice run, it would've still been a waste of time and sinew. By his actions, you seemed to at least start to acknowledge the fact that the attempt was in vane. Although I agree that we learn a lot from failures, you would not of learned much by sinewing this bow. Say you got all your sinew applied, wait for it to cure, string it up and it blows up. Was it the knot that caused it or did you not apply the sinew properly? See what I mean? A lot of beginners have the same notion of continuing on a bow after they already know its a failed attempt for "practice". I suspect its because they've already made the mistake of getting attached to their first bow. That logic is faulty though. It's not really their first bow, it's their first attempt. They're better off if the learn from the mistake(s) and start over. There's no sense in saddling a dead horse so to speak. Blackhawk may have irritated you, but he did you a solid by doing it. Try to keep that in mind. Josh
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Nicely said Josh.
Some guys will praise a disaster of a bow to be nice, but some guys will tell you there's a hinge.
I too am learning this craft, and the hard truth is what I'd rather have.
Blackhawk comes from years of bow building experience, and his advice has helped me huge.
It's hard to not get attached to a piece of wood, the more you make the more they become just that, pieces of wood. Good luck
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James
The bow I posted a picture of was sinew patched about 12 years ago. I still have the bow and braced and pulled it back the other day, didn't shoot it though.
If you look at Chris' (blackhawk) signature it says " I'm the bad Chris". I guess now you know that you can take that literally :laugh:
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I would rather have these wise men tell me straight up, than to have them tell me it looks good when it doesn't. It is a hit to the ego, but at least you are learning. One thing I have learned, never pull a bow back past the intended draw weight.
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Wise words. I have listened and learned from you all. I have taken a short break to really look hard at what I want to succeed at
with my bows.
I almost have my Meare Heath bow ready to raw hide back by slowing down to taking heed to wise council.
Dog
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err, i'm over it.. i was already irritated when i signed on. and his words just kinda Pee'd me off. there's a right and wrong way to say things. I was taught to say things in a way that you'd want them said to you. and growing up where i did, talking smack even if it is wise counsel would get you hurt. i don't live that way myself, but habits are hard to break. now to the bow, i actually took the whole thing down another growth ring, and the wood started turning like a purple color. when i hit the other side, devil be me, i rasp'd down to ANOTHER knot! so i put some arrow's in it just to try and break it. stupid thing is stubborn.. 45 arrows later i just put it to the knee.
just want to say again, i'm sorry for being brash. Also, just because i was still trying to move on with it, doesn't mean i didn't know it was a failure. tiller practice never hurts. i had resigned to finishing this bow the first 5-6 comments on this post. i bought some osage orange on ebay, only 30$.. it should be here friday (ish). i'm not touching that until i know for a fact that im not going to mess it up. and i hope i haven't ruined all you good folks from helping me.
I'ma turn the bad Chris, into a good Chris.
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Your bow is not braced yet?
Yes looks like Pacific Dogwood is free game, thanks for the info.
There's too much good yew to cut around here though, not sure if I could spare the room 😉
And congrats on the kid, my wife is pregnant as well 😀
I stumbled upon the info while reading an old thread about a guy who was going to cut some red osier and then was recommended pacific dogwood but thought like yourself that the law was still in place but thankfully someone looked it up and showed him that it had been repealed. I hear it makes a good bow, you'll have to tell me about it's working properties, and how it compares to flowering dogwood.
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Very funny meme, and you have to be careful with that $30 osage on eBay, but we shall see Friday what it looks like.
Also, the trading section here on Primitive archer is a great place to trade for some osage and other woods. Try it out. You might be surprised at some peoples generosity on here :)
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Pacific dogwood is also a flowering type, it's our provincial flower ;)
Someone told me it's our hardest local wood, its wonderful to work and also had the pinkish swirls in it
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Sounds beautiful, hope to see a few made of the stuff from you in the future, your excellent craftsmanship is never a disappointment and I'm sure you'll create some more fantastic bows for us to drool at :)
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I know from experience that it's a sinking feeling to hear that a bow you've put some time and sweat into has a fatal flaw. I guess some guys can just shrug it off and start on another one, but it puts me in a funk for a couple of days. Soon as I take the lesson learned and start on a new bow, surprisingly, everything is good again.
Yeah, Blackhawk doesn't sugar coat his advice. Gotta remember not to take it as a personal attack, that's just his take on the piece of wood. 3 years ago I posted my first backed bow on TG. The backing was a beautiful ;) horribly violated (like a dozen rings worth plus pin knots) slat of red elm. It still makes me wince to think about it now. Of course, ol' Bad Chris called me on it. I think a called him an internet troll and a few other things in return. I apologized later. The second day I shot the bow it raised a splinter. I glued that one down and it raised another one. Since that day I only use the straightest grained wood I can find and it's usually hickory for backing. So even if you could change Chris (good luck with that), would you really want to? IMO there is a long learning curve to bow making and an honest take from the experienced guys on here will get you there sooner. At least, that's how it has worked for me.
Good luck with your Osage stave. My favorite self bow is from a thin ringed $25 or $30 Osage stave that I was the only bidder on ebay.
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" Never fall in love with a piece of wood" My 1st rule of bow making. ;) :) Glad to see things have settled down. :) Now James grab another piece of wood and go at it. :)
Pappy
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There is a lot to be gleaned from planning on breaking a bow. I suggest you carefully and systematically break it. I did this the other day to a mulberry bow I was ready to through out I was so frustrated with it. I decided to test the species of mulberry I was working with here in Taiwan by breaking this one on the tiller tree. I was shocked to see my little 60'' mulberry bow bend to 32'' before finally splitting (more like folding) along an emerging hinge. I had only planned for it to draw to 24 in my design. Mind you, I had violated numerous rings at that point and it was only pulling 38# at 24''. Point is, it wasn't a waste of time breaking or making it. I learned a lot about the limits of the wood I have access to and that is invaluable information! So, be careful and go about breaking it after you devise a means you think could possibly save it. I think this will tell you just how far a repair will go and how far you can stress this species. Of course, repeated use is different than an immediate break, but logically, it should still break at the same spot over time.
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Hey there, looks like I missed out on the initial drama >:D
Anyhoo, If that thing is drawing 60# and barely to brace, I have to ask myself....How dang big is your daughter!!! Whoa Nelly!!
Just one serious thought though. I completely agree that one should never give a kid a dangerous bow. I once drew an ERC bow to show a guy how it was and it blew up in my living room with my 5 year old daughter in there. Bits flew and I realized how fortunate I (and my daughter) was that she did not get permanently scarred or blinded or just even a regular old hurt and I will never be so careless again.
Couldn't you rasp away that one side until the knot is gone and just make the whole bow narrower with no knot at all? I guess it could still maybe hit the 20# + range, but then I'm no expert on screwing things up and then trying to make them still work LOLOLOLO hahahahaha
Best wishes and probably "my condolences" as well. But mostly congratulations on the next baby!!! Awesome
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PS: don't let these guys get under your skin. Cut em some slack. Most were raised in barns or back sheds eating bugs for breakfast and worms for lunch (wait, that was me) But any way, they mean well but they're sometimes a little unpolished. They do know a whooooole lot about bows though.
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Who you calling unpolished. ??? ::) ;) :) :) :)
Pappy
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Certainly not you Pap ;) You know a whole lot and you're polish.
I see now you already have it down to the 20# range so my idea is too late. Sorry for not catching that the first time through.
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Soooooo dubby who ARE you calling unpolished... >:D if its me i can take it...ive been called much worse before,and it wont raise my blood pressure one bit :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Unpolished huh? Well...I reckon I resemble that remark. Lol! Josh
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Checklist for next Saturday night, shave, shower and POLISH. Will Turtlewax work?
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You mean Turdlewax DC? :)
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Did I spell it wrong?
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Your bow is not braced yet?
Yes looks like Pacific Dogwood is free game, thanks for the info.
There's too much good yew to cut around here though, not sure if I could spare the room 😉
And congrats on the kid, my wife is pregnant as well 😀
Well congrats on the pregnancy goat! That's an exciting time. You are very lucky to be blessed with such responsibility. Looks like there will be a little Billy Goat running around soon with a bow in hand. I bet you and the misses are glad you took that road trip earlier this year!
Aaron
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Haha thanks a lot Aaron. We found out shortly after we got home.
We are both very excited, and of course I've already made a 20" bow
out of a scrap piece of bamboo backing
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Sweet goat! Let's see a new thread to that kid bow
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You know I will!
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No offense to anyone in particular intended, but if it's you I'm talkin about you probably already know it ;D Hey Josh ;D
Yep, you made the list Blackie >:D But what do I really know anyway...
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Checklist for next Saturday night, shave, shower and POLISH. Will Turtlewax work?
You ain't getting any of MY wax. ::)