Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: Zuma on November 07, 2015, 04:16:37 pm
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This has nothing to do with modern abo stuff.
What I would like to discuss is the way Native American
projectile evolution occurred.
Of course most of this will be predicated on speculation.
The actual projectiles themselves give a good amount of clue.
If we start with Clovis and work through Late Paleo-Archaic and the Woodland periods by point style. Could we visualize how and why different types came about, how they were hafted and used.
I like to call it the Bic Lighter Syndrome.
Explanation---back in the day cigarette lighters were made of silver and other metals. They were very large and artistically made with various scenes, busts and historic motifs. Technical and high quality to be used over and over.
They eventually became smaller, using different fuels and cheaper materials.
Soon they became personal items carried in purses and pockets.
Sill durable and somewhat treasured.
And then finally the cheap and dirty throw away plastic Bic.
Well, I look at the Clovis as the Coffee table lighter and the Late Woodland triangle as the Bic.
Any thoughts?
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yep same brain wave here. look, heres how i think on it. a clovis point wasnt only a spear point, it was a knife point, it was a tool that was very well made, it was a one tool does all tool. im assuming they had a whole culture around that point design because of what it meant to them.so i imagine they took great pains to make sure it was a very well made tool. however, i bet one day some hunter noticed that hey even the flakes i make making this difficult point cut, hmmm wonder how well it would work....then tried it!. fast forward to woodland times and the bow and arrows, the object of the arrow was to not only puncture the animal they were aiming at. but to cause a wide area or hole to bleed out that animal. heck any piece of stone ,bone, wood , thats sharp can do that. so hence something easy to fasion and still works. i like basic triangles myself though i do adore the fine craftmanship of a clovis point.but would i make a clovis to hunt with? no. why? way to much work compared to basic triangular points.heck ive seen some nice sized clovis points. i could make a heck of a point just from what i seen in flutes that were removed in a few touch ups.so why work so hard on it? just my thoughts. Tony
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Don, here's my .02 The size of the game changed from Mastidons to Deer and the weapons changed from spears and atl-atl to bowand arrow. Big Clovis points to teeny Triangle bird points in a few thousand yrs. Bob
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Don't overlook the significance of the atlatl. It delivered a projectile to the target with more than a hundred foot pounds of energy that a hand thrown spear could deliver. The point didn't have to be made as well and since you could retrieve your shaft in a atlatl and dart setup, you could have barbs on the point since all you had to do is load up another foreshaft. Than and the game was no longer megafauna in later days. The delivery method in other words had a huge impact (no pun intended) on the was the weapon and point was designed to stay in place from the archaic on whereas Paleo points were designed to stab, be removed and stab again. Clovis and Paleo points didn't have shoulders for a reason - you could thrust and pull the point out and thrust again. Barbed points do not pull out easily - you just shoot the game and reload your shaft with another foreshaft and shoot again with the assistance of an atlatl.
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Very good replies.
If I can find a good illustration of what convention
says are the major point types I will.
But I think if we use just the basics we can try to
match them to time, weather, creatures, geographic
domain,workmanship and the like.
Suggestion in order---
Clovis, other Paleo, corner notched, early stemmed, bifurcate, stemmed
side notched and triangle.
I might start by saying I think the Clovis hinged flute was created to help kill elephants and see where it goes.
Zuma
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I'll simplify that. All Paleo points were made to penetrate, insert and when possible extract to insert again. Of course the best situation was to be able to toss the spear and kill, but not all prey in the Paleo time was something that could be killed with a single throw. Also keep in mind that groups hunted, and it wasn't necessairly one person one target. When buffalo could be run off a bluff or deer could be ran down a hollow and then entangled in a hoop line, that was the best. Later the atlatl increased the distance prey could be killed and the points changed. I am sounding like a broken record, but there was a reason Paleo points didn't have barbs and Archaic to Woodland points did...then there was the bow and the Mississippian.
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Dalton
I don't think a broken record at all. Imo the smallest details are
very telling in the overall. For instance grinding and the evolution
of incurvated and excurvated traits as well as serrations.
Interesting is how almost all of these traits disappear in the Late Woodland.
I am glad you see you may be in agreement with me that Clovis at
least had not developed the atatl and used their spears for thrusting
or throwing.
If you all would try to think about Clovis migration direction I would
suggest this-- (north)Western Clovis seem to be more square based, straight
sided and shorter flutes. Imo I see this as the beginning of Clovis technology.
As you go south and east the sides become more incurvated the bases more
convex and the flutes longer. Is this evolution/morphology??
Zuma
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Don, I have been told that the glaciers receded from South to North and from East to West, and I am assuming the first people followed the glaciers or migrated both directions. I also believe we have way more clovis sites in the east than in the west. JUst a little something that I was thinking about. I do agree with ya on the no barb thrusting pull and return stuff, Not really sure when the atl-atl came into play but after spears Just Thinkin. :o Bob
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Bob, Good thoughts.
Just my take based on archaeology and personal travel.
First there are not really any northern Clovis elephant kill sites.
A few speculative ones. Most are in what is more the southern half of
N America. Clovis, NM , Naco southern AZ, Lehner AZ, Murray southern AZ,
Colby north central WY and the Texas high plains, all mammoth kills.
Also one from Mexico fairly recent, a mastodon ancestor.
One mastodon site in MO. Mastodons are said to be more woodland.
The edge of the ice sheet should have been around the Canadian border at this time??
Having been stationed at Clovis AB and traveling all over that territory as well as
Texas, Arizona NV, CA, UT, WY, ND, NE, KS recently. The area is not really
the most hospitable. Compared to the east. Much easier to make a living east
of the Big Muddy.
It's a shame that most do not recognize the C 14 dates anymore except when
someone wants to claim Pre Clovis. They have really muddied the waters.
Along with the Black Mat folks. lol
Zuma
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And, don't forget Florida. Quite a few Clovis sites in North Florida and 10-15 miles out into the Gulf of Mexico.
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And, don't forget Florida. Quite a few Clovis sites in North Florida and 10-15 miles out into the Gulf of Mexico.
Good point Eddie. I sure would perfer Tampa Bay to the Great Basin.
I had the great fortune to view Ben Waller's Paleo point collection
shortly before he past. Those points as I remember were so evolved
( well, works of beauty art and technology)
Not at all like the ones I see from out in the north west.
Excluding the ones in controversial Clovis cashes. lol
What is your take on the FL Paleo points? I'm sure you have seen quite a few.
Thanks
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Don, Our local archaeological club meets on Thurs(12) and we are having 2 of our members speak who just returned from the reopened and expanded Sugarloaf site, Dr. Gramly thinks that this will be the biggest clovis site in the US. This site is located on the Connecticut River in Deerfield , Mass. This site it has just been reopened after many yrs of set backs for various reasons, Dr. Gramly came to our local club 2 yrs ago with a perfectly intact lg clovis point that he believes came from manufacturing site the base and hafting area hadn't been ground yet. On a different note a yr. ago Dr. Gramly came to our local meeting with a bunch of Mastodon bones that had definitely been butchered with stone tools by the the large smooth cuts on the bones. I believe this Mastodon was either 66 or 67 th one found in NY. Museums were not even interested in this one because it had been dug thru with a ditch machine, I guess museums like ones that are relatively simpler to re assemble. I have been very fortunate to have Dr. Gramly come to our local club and speak and actually bring the real artifacts with him. I will keep ya updated on some things from the next meeting. Oh a little side note on the unused clovis point, the material supposedly came from about 100 miles south of manufacture site and was said to be Normanskill from the Hudson Valley area. Bob
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That's real cool 8)
Getting to hold and study Paleo material is quite special.
I could do it day and night if I had the chance.
I guess we should get some photos up to see
possible similarities or differences in Paleo points
from different sites or maybe just links.
Zuma
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To put things into perspective, there was a tremendous shift with the advent of the archaic era.
Basically, the advent of the archaic era forced people to become super duper specialists, wherever they were at. The had to learn to extract everything they needed to survive, from their immediate surroundings. As a result, they had to develop many sophisticated processes needed in order to live, in one area. For example, they developed stone mortars, and other items, that enabled them to eke out an existence, in various regions.
What makes it more complex is that in some areas - such as the Great Basin - food was highly seasonal, with up to twelve seasons in a year. So, people had to learn to cycle through food sources, every so many weeks, simply to keep going. And, all of this took specialized knowledge that only was applicable certain areas.
Until that time, quite a few paleo points were known far and wide, or were known within certain probable migratory ranges. But, with the specialization of the archaic came a specialization of point types. One also sees signs of settled life, with the appearance of settlements, during the archaic era.
The shift from paleo types to archaic types may have reflected a shift from one lifestyle to another, and a shift in lithic materials selected. In other words, people who lived settled lives, may have been more prone to employing stone found in their respective region. Also, the shifts could reflect differences in hafting strategies.
Afterwards, the development of the bow and arrow would have involved further specialization of point types, that reflected different types of hafting, etc.
What is not so clear is the status of knives, during these eras, and transitions of eras. Shafer offers the opinion that the Lerma was never a projectile point, but rather a knife. The Hasket tradition, to the far north, may have been a knife tradition. And, there could have been knife traditions in between the Lerma of Mexico, and the Haskett of the Great Basin.
Probably the best way to look at this is to place projectile point typologies side by side, with dates in sequence, and then see where there was common ancestry, and the look at what spun off of the common ancestry, with the advent of the archaic era. Beyond that, one could track the development of lithic styles, with the retreat of the Northern Ice Shield, to see at what point in time - and where - did subsequent northern variants appear.
More banned knowledge from the chronically banned flintknapper, LOL.
Ancient Tech
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Ben
Could you do me a favor and see if you can find Tony Bakers Clovis C14
timeline paper. It's a great resource and it would show us where to look
up sites chronologically. It has every site location and dates available to him.
I know I found it a couple years ago. It may be in a PDF file.
I can't open them. Or we could wing it. But I would like very much to stay
with Paleo before moving on to the Archaic. For clarity. Oh BTW Galt is know
as a long time Clovis settlement. Long time. lol
Thanks Zuma
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Don, my take on them is they are very refined, especially the Coral points and worth a lot of money. That's why I hunt artifacts, pays for hunting trips and toys.
Bob, next time you talk to Dr. Gramly ask him if he remembers my De Soto era bracelet he appraised and wrote an article about.
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Try to knap a broadhead for a blow gun dart .....
until now i have seen no precolumbian blow gun darts with a broadhead ...
there are those microlith arrows , were the microliths or just small flakes are fixed
with birch tar .... that can not be that the simple microliths came after the really hard worked
arrowheads ..... rather the hard worked arrowheads are more durable and that is why they
are preserved for such a long time ...
long serated stone blades , large well worked points seem to me like some kind of prestige
for the owner or maker than a necessity .... just a fiat 500 would do , but you want a ferrari
Can a well worked broadhead be deadly with a bow with less draw weight?
I read 45 lb are enough for killing a deer .... if you have dogs the hog runs into the spear ....
ever made any draw weight assumptions for an atlatl ?
there are even "bow traps" .... there is the "bolla" (with three stones tight on a rope) to block or
coil around the games legs .... there is even arrow poison which even reduces the necessity
of long heavy bows to ell long kid sized bows which draw merely to the elbow / arm joint ...
there is the known musket or flint or rifle bullet which is practically a lead ball .... well, also
a projectile (compact in size and dimensions) and similar to what was used much earlier
in primitive slings ...
and a tradition and art aging millenia abandoned for cheap and rusty iron and scrap metal
within one or two generations ...
seems to me "projectile points" out of stone already had their peak in history a long time
ago in forgotten cultures like the clovis and others .... it maybe evolved too early and to quick
to perfection (maybe just within a hand full of generations) and that more out of curiosity than
necessity .... and so it seems like a riddle to us , because we can not look back that much in time
i mean we are talking about things that are older than our pets and the food that we
eat ( older than corn, wheat , barley and so on ) ... maybe even older than our species
and i do not think we got the dna from those early prehumans who used projectile points
maybe in some cases even predating the use of fire ....
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would these work ???
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@Zuma
wow !
blow dart weight should be between 25 and 50 grain ... (at least around that)
0.5 to 0.63" is a usual caliber for blow guns ...
30% FOC is alright ... may be some percent more if you shoot an object on the ground
( when shooting birds form a tree , you want other darts)
the modern plastic or paper cones are damn efficient even for 0.63" caliber blow guns ...
however historical blowguns used thistle , fur , cotton, kapok and so on and
that usually requires a smaller caliber or diameter of the blowgun
(just personal experience)
So , if you use at least 0.63" caliber and 7' long blowgun and blow that with ease
(for some people that is difficult ) and use cones and the dart is no more than 60 grain
it should work .... However i do not know how many hits you need for a distance of 15 yard
for the rabbit to be dead ... maybe one would be enough with such a dart ... for the usual
ones are said to need three ...
By the way the paper cone is enough when making a japanese fukiya .... only
the point or tip (usually a nail or something) needs to be from metal ... but it could
be stone or glass as well ... ( i am not sure , but i think the fukiya dates to medieval
japan and was never used in the americas, indonesia or outside japan ... although
paper or paper like something was known in mexico)
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Thanks for the info but I'm really trying to stay on the
Native American typology. Paleo at the moment.
If you took your post and started a thread about
Blowguns and darts I would be glad to join you.
and I think others have some cool views also.
But It would have to be based on (knapping)
Or if the thread was in Primitive Skills I guess any primitive
material would work I have quite a few points I think may
be made for blowguns. I'm to blame here by posting the photo.
I'll try to remove it to.
Thanks Zuma
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suppose one finds a 25 grain broadhead , probably made by a long forgotten
civilization .... there is a chance to think of it just merely as waste ,
but it could as well been mounted on a blow gun dart ...
i found such triangular pieces of a black hard stone ... probably basalt
... and some of other rocks ... which just needed a proper sharpening
to be useful ....
(it works , because i tried that out ... and yes , i could have done better)
of course in evolution one first starts with something some found in nature
... a sharp teeth ... a stone split looking like that ... and then man made refining ...
there are evolution of so called "unlogical" taboos as well ...
and this could explain why arrows were decorated or crasted ... why
certain kind of arrowheads evolved and the feathers of some birds were taboo
or forbidden or why some arrowheads were made of bones
even today some US states have laws on arrowheads right now in the 21st century ...
well, i dare not call this a taboo , but maybe they will call it that in 10 000 years
also not being allowed to kill an animal with bow and arrow in some european countries
is a modern taboo or the prohibition of the blowgun for hunting and even recreational use in
california
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Ben
Could you do me a favor and see if you can find Tony Bakers Clovis C14
timeline paper. It's a great resource and it would show us where to look
up sites chronologically. It has every site location and dates available to him.
I know I found it a couple years ago. It may be in a PDF file.
I can't open them. Or we could wing it. But I would like very much to stay
with Paleo before moving on to the Archaic. For clarity. Oh BTW Galt is know
as a long time Clovis settlement. Long time. lol
Thanks Zuma
Hello Zuma,
Sorry for the delay. I found this:
Clovis First / Pre-Clovis Problem -- Revisited 2004
Appendix
C-14 Dates
Tony Baker
September 15, 2004
http://www.ele.net/art_folsom/pre-clovis_2004/c14appendix.htm (http://www.ele.net/art_folsom/pre-clovis_2004/c14appendix.htm)
Sample #
Complex/
Tradition
Site
Calendar Date
+1 sd *
C14 date
Lab #
Source
1 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 15792-16381 13390 +130 IVIC-668 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
2 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 15792-16381 13390 +130 IVIC-662 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
3 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 15523-16169 13180 +130 IVIC-671 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
4 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 15459-16123 13130 +130 IVIC-663 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
5 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 15257-15959 12980 +85 SI-3316 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
6 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14530-16082 13000 +200 Birm-802 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
7 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14456-16135 13010 +280 IVIC-191-1 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
8 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14455-16092 12990 +260 IVIC-670 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
9 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14395-15682 12770 +120 IVIC-669 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
10 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14376-15624 12730 +120 IVIC-664 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
11 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14345-15543 12660 +120 IVIC-660 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
12 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14328-15502 12620 +120 IVIC-661 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
13 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14304-15467 12580 +150 IVIC-627 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
14 Clovis Paleo Crossing, OH 13842-14983 12150 +75 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
15 Clovis Big Eddy, MO 13636-14094 11900 +80 oldest date Haynes 2002:12
16 Clovis Aubrey, TX 13418-13808 11570 +70 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
17 Clovis Blackwater Locality #1, NM 12998-13753 11300 +240 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
18 Clovis Colby, WY 13000-13408 11200 +200 RL-392 Frison 1991:25
19 Clovis Dent, CO 12425-13839 11200 +500 I-622 Frison 1991:25
20 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 13017-13332 11200 +40 Beta-159914 Rasic 2003:24
21 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 13017-13332 11200 +40 Beta-133393 Rasic 2003:24
22 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 13003-13334 11180 +80 Beta-122322 Rasic 2003:24
23 Clovis Blackwater Locality #1, NM 12878-13453 11130 +290 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
24 Clovis Lange-Ferguson, SD 12964-13342 11140 +140 AA-905 Frison 1991:25
25 Clovis Vail, ME 12918-13338 11120 +180 oldest date Haynes 2002:13
26 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 13004-13186 11160 +40 Beta-159915 Rasic 2003:24
27 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 13004-13160 11120 +40 Beta-159913 Rasic 2003:24
28 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 12978-13176 11110 +80 Beta-122323 Rasic 2003:24
29 Clovis Whipple, NH 12674-13427 11050 +300 avg. of several Haynes 2002:13
30 Clovis Domebo, OK 12842-13381 11040 +250 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
31 Clovis Paleo Crossing, OH 12928-13163 11060 +120 AA-8250-C Haynes 2002:12
32 Clovis Paleo Crossing, OH 12918-13137 10980 +110 AA-8250-E Haynes 2002:12
33 Clovis Sheriden Pit, OH 12914-13131 10970 +70 oldest date Haynes 2002:13
34 Clovis Anzick, MT 12886-13129 10940 +90 AA-2981 Frison 1991:25
35 Clovis Shawnee Minisink, PA 12886-13129 10940 +90 Haynes 2002:12
36 Clovis Domebo, OK 12686-13154 10940 +180 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
37 Clovis Lehner, AZ 12881-13119 10930 +40 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
38 Clovis Murry Springs, AZ 12857-13114 10900 +50 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
39 Clovis Shawnee Minisink, PA 12858-13111 10900 +40 Haynes 2002:12
40 Clovis Cactus Hill, VA 12436-13183 10920 +250 Haynes 2002:12
41 Clovis Colby, WY 12667-13123 10864 +141 SMU-254 Frison 1991:25
42 Clovis Anzick, MT 12661-12997 10820 +100 AA-2979 Frison 1991:25
43 Clovis Paleo Crossing, OH 12433-13119 10800 +185 AA-8250-D Haynes 2002:12
44 Clovis Domebo, OK 12421-13138 10820 +230 average of several Haynes 2002:12
45 El Jobo El Vano, Venezuela 12639-12911 10710 +60 B-95602 Jaimes 1998:25
46 Clovis Dent, CO 12636-12899 10690 +50 average of several Haynes 2002:12
47 Clovis Anzick, MT 12441-12939 10710 +100 AA-2980 Frison 1991:25
48 Clovis Sheaman, WY 12427-12913 10690 +105 Beta-25836 Frison 1991:25
49 Agate Basin Hell Gap, WY 11968-13424 10850 +500 I-167 Frison 1991:27
50 Clovis Debert, Nova Scotia 12371-12842 10590 +50 average of several Haynes 2002:12
51 Clovis Lange-Ferguson, SD 11698-13291 10730 +530 I-13104 Frison 1991:25
52 Clovis Shawnee Minisink, PA 12112-12990 10640 +290 average of several Haynes 2002:12
53 Clovis Sheriden Pit, OH 12176-12795 10470 +70 youngest date Haynes 2002:13
54 Clovis Johnson, TN 11161-13804 10700 +980 Haynes 2002:12
55 Agate Basin Allen, NE 11361-13147 10600 +620 Tx-6594 LaBelle 2004:Table 5.6
56 Clovis Whipple, NH 11703-12833 10430 +300 Haynes 2002:13
57 Agate Basin Agate Basin, WY 11309-12907 10430 +570 RL-557 Frison 1991:26
58 Clovis Big Eddy, MO 11703-12319 10260 +85 youngest date Haynes 2002:12
59 Agate Basin Allen, NE 11341-12623 10260 +360 Tx-6596 LaBelle 2004:Table 5.6
60 Clovis Templeton, CT 11264-12567 10190 +300 W-3931 Haynes 2002:13
61 Clovis Vail, ME 11123-12584 10040 +390 youngest date Haynes 2002:13
62 Agate Basin Brewster, WY 11172-11953 9990 +225 M-1131 Frison 1991:26
63 Sluiceway Irwin Sluiceway, AK 11301-11741 10060 +80 Beta-131336 Rasic 2003:24
64 Sluiceway Irwin Sluiceway, AK 11303-11691 10050 +70 Beta-134677 Rasic 2003:24
65 Sluiceway MIS-495, AK 11263-11554 10010 +40 Beta-165299 Rasic 2003:24
66 Sluiceway MIS-495, AK 11226-11336 9910 +40 Beta-165298 Rasic 2003:24
67 Sluiceway NR-5, AK 10430-11544 9640 +300 Beta-146116 Rasic 2003:24
68 Agate Basin Frazier, CO 10758-11178 9650 +130 SMU-31 Frison 1991:26
69 Sluiceway Irwin Sluiceway, AK 10740-11068 9550 +50 Beta-120696 Rasic 2003:24
70 Sluiceway NR-5, AK 10703-11071 9550 +60 Beta-146117 Rasic 2003:24
71 Agate Basin Agate Basin, WY 10692-11091 9550 +130 SMU-32 LaBelle 2004:Table 5.6
72 Clovis Whipple, NH 9871-11535 9400 +500 Haynes 2002:13
73 Agate Basin Brewster, WY 9918-11202 9350 +450 O-1252 Frison 1991:26
74 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 8658-8980 7950 +40 Beta-133394 Rasic 2003:24
* Calendar dates calculated by author using CALIB REV4.4.2 (Stuiver and Reimer 1993:215-230).
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No problem Ben,
Give me a bit to digest it all. It's a whopper.
Thank you very much.
Zuma
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Zuma, I think it is worth comparing the Paijan point to the alleged "El Jobo" point of Monteverde, and comparing the alleged "El Jobo" point of Monteverde to the rest of the El Jobo points found at Taima Taima, and in Venezuela.
Then, note the relationship of the Paijan to the fluted fishtail, and ask whether the fluted fishtail really could have been coeval with the "El Jobo".
I have thought about this for years.
Here is the so-called "El Jobo" from Monteverde:
http://www.ele.net/kunz/slide23.jpg (http://www.ele.net/kunz/slide23.jpg)
Compare this to the Paijan:
http://www.geocities.ws/mineria_region/punta_paijan.jpg (http://www.geocities.ws/mineria_region/punta_paijan.jpg)
If the slender Paijan point was really used for fishing, then what does it say about the slender point found at Monte Verde? :o :o :o
I think if you pulled all of these dates - fluted fishtail, Paijan, El Jobo, MonteVerde - and factored them in to the other radiocarbon dates, it should be interesting. But, what is even more interesting, is the materials that different point types were made from.
Also, if the hypothesized function of the Paijan point has any relation to the finely chipped basalt point found at Montevideo, then I think that a maritime implication should be considered. Ever see the woodwork at Montevideo?
Ancient Tech
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Ben, That's great
I was thinking just North American but didn't put that in
the title. No matter I agree with you 100 percent. :laugh:
That doesn't happen to often. lol Glad we can put our efforts
together.
Because if the C14 and stratified info is correct on
just Monte Verde it puts a really difficult wrinkle in the entire
morphology/evolution imo.
Really worth exploring before Clovis.
I want to put the data in a easy to read format etc.
But I sure would like to hear any and all ideas about Jobo
fluted stems/pre or contemporary. How or /do they mesh with
Haskett/Sluiceway etc.
Thanks again Zuma
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Ben, That's great
I was thinking just North American but didn't put that in
the title. No matter I agree with you 100 percent. :laugh:
That doesn't happen to often. lol Glad we can put our efforts
together.
Because if the C14 and stratified info is correct on
just Monte Verde it puts a really difficult wrinkle in the entire
morphology/evolution imo.
Really worth exploring before Clovis.
I want to put the data in a easy to read format etc.
But I sure would like to hear any and all ideas about Jobo
fluted stems/pre or contemporary. How or /do they mesh with
Haskett/Sluiceway etc.
Thanks again Zuma
"But I sure would like to hear any and all ideas about Jobo
fluted stems/pre or contemporary. How or /do they mesh with
Haskett/Sluiceway etc."
There is a smaller fluted stemmed point, I think out of Colombia. Regarding the Haskett, Sluiceway, El Jobo points, I am not convinced that they are related.
I think that the Haskett could be a knife, rather than a projectile point. Not counting MountVerde, the other El Jobo points that I have seen are intensely granular. It is not the type of material that would lend itself to smooth, Clovis-like flakes. In the same areas, when fluted fishtails are recovered, I believe that they are frequently of a much higher grade of material, such as agate, jasper, chert, etc.
As for the thick lanceolate bodied points, I am not convinced that the could not have been independently invented.
Here is a good article (in Spanish) on a fluted fishtail site. The author points out that the blades shown are either Clovis technology blades, or a descendant of Clovis. My thought is that the initiation of the blade looked like the work of a wooden punch. There is also a Clovis-like graver.
http://www.scielo.cl/pdf/chungara/2015nahead/aop0415.pdf (http://www.scielo.cl/pdf/chungara/2015nahead/aop0415.pdf)
What I wonder is whether there was a single precursor to both fluted fishtail points, and Clovis points. I think the old model was that Clovis was early, and fluted fishtail was late. But, I am not sure that they had many dates in when that model was put together.
If I can dredge up enough fluted fishtail dates, I will incorporate them into this list.
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That's cool Ben. 8)
I have been hunting and having a few folks over to knap and
learn some neat stuff that Helena teaches. :)
First thing I want to do is take Tony's work that you found
and graph it in a east/west-north/south configuration.
It may reveal something. ???
Later, Zuma
Oh btw do you have any solid dates and locations on fluted stems?
Fell's Cave??? etc.
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Come on Ben.
I could use your knowledge here.
Time well spent imho.
Here are Tony's Projectile types by dates of calendar years
El Jobo Dates oldest 15,381 VenezulaTaima-Taima
" " " "" latest 12,639 Venezula El Vano
Clovis 14,983
9,871
Sluiceway 13,017
8,658
Agate Basin 13,424
9,918
Here are Tony's sites by earliest dates with their locations.
Please bare in mind that these locations are just from Tony Baker's
work. A bit dated today because more sites have been found.
Perhaps we/I can add new locations and dates.
I see no directional linearity here??
But that does not mean that with more comprehensive site inclusions
direction cannot be found.
The list below is oldest location to latest.
Ohio
Missouri
Texas
New Mexico
North central Wyoming
Colorado
South Dakota
Maine
New Hampshire
Oklahoma
Ohio
South Western Montana
Eastern Pennsylvania
Southern Arizona
South Eastern Virginia
Nova Scotia
North Eastern Tennessee
Tempelton Connecticut
Here are the C14 dates Tony compiled.
By point type
Tony you da man!
Clovis
OH, Paleo Crossing 12,150+/- 75 2nd 11,060+/-120 10,980+/-110
Mo Big Eddy 11,900+/-80
TX Aubrey 11,570+/-70
NM Blackwater 11,300+/-240 2nd 11,130+/-290
WY Colby 11,200+/-200 2nd 10,864+/-141
Co Dent 11,200+/-500
SD Lange Ferguson 11,140+/-140 2nd 10,730+/-50
ME Vail 11,120+/-180 2nd10,040+/-390
NH Wipple 11,050+/-300 2nd 10,430+/-300 3rd 9400+/-500
OK Domebo 11,040+/-250 2nd 10,940+/-180
OH Sheriden Pit 10,970+/-70
MT Anzick 10,940+/-90 2nd10,820+/-100
PA ShawneeMinisink 10,940+/-90 2nd 10,900+/-40
AZ Lehner 10,930+/-40
AZ Murry Springs 10,900+/-50
VA Cactus Hill 10,920+/-250
Nova Scotia Debert 10,590+/-50
TN Johnson 10,700+/-980
CT Tempelton 10,190+/-300
Agate Basin
WY Hell Gap 10,850+/-500 2nd 10,430+/-570
WY Bewster 9,990+/-225 2nd 9,350+/-450
WY Agate Basin 9,550+/-130
NE Allen 10,600+/-620 2nd 10,260+/-360
Alaska Sluiceway 11,200--7950
CO Frazier 9,650+/-130
Yeah it's a bit much. But better to try and fail than not try.
Zuma