Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => ABO => Topic started by: iowabow on November 28, 2015, 09:30:32 pm
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Stone point results:
Will a stone point cut through a rib? Yes this is the second time I have seen these results.
Are stone points durable? Yes this point never broke on impact. And it was shot into frozen ground many times before hitting this deer. I like to test them first jw. Yes I miss a lot. I retouch the points after planting the point in the dirt. I also reset the glue.
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Whaaaa...? Didja think I was gonna rib you about this again?
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Always exciting to hear these reports....Congrats
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Always exciting to hear these reports....Congrats
The hairs embedded in the cut were an unexpected. I guess we don't think about how much is happening all at the same time.
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That looks super cool all covered in blood. lol At first I was wondering what kind of material that was
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Too cool! I was hoping to copy this experiment last night but the full moon kept the deer feeding in the field rather then walking in the woods.
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That little rock did it's work for sure! Cool! Josh
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Stone point results:
Will a stone point cut through a rib? Yes this is the second time I have seen these results.
Are stone points durable? Yes this point never broke on impact. And it was shot into frozen ground many times before hitting this deer. I like to test them first jw. Yes I miss a lot. I retouch the points after planting the point in the dirt. I also reset the glue.
This really is barbaric. YES I MISS ALOT Get the out of the woods dude.
Zuma
Did I MISS some thing here?
Or are you just kidding? I hope so.
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This really is barbaric. YES I MISS ALOT Get the out of the woods dude.
Zuma
Did I MISS some thing here?
Or are you just kidding? I hope so.
If i was to guess, I would say you missed your meds this morning Zuma. Your troll routine is getting a bit tiresome. Speaking for myself, I would greatly appreciate it if you would cease and desist with the BS forthwith, let by gones be by gones and we can all move on. Just a suggestion mind you. Josh
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Stone point results:
Will a stone point cut through a rib? Yes this is the second time I have seen these results.
Are stone points durable? Yes this point never broke on impact. And it was shot into frozen ground many times before hitting this deer. I like to test them first jw. Yes I miss a lot. I retouch the points after planting the point in the dirt. I also reset the glue.
This really is barbaric. YES I MISS ALOT Get the out of the woods dude.
Zuma
Did I MISS some thing here?
Or are you just kidding? I hope so.
Will you please let us know if you are trolling with anti-hunting sentiments or taking pot-shots at iowabow. Like Gun Doc (and a large number of others) I am weary of your behavior in here.
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Let's let Iowa field my reply.
Why? Because it's his thread.
Or address missing a lot. My post. Thanks
If you want to use MEDS and TROLL as personal attacks.
Be my guest. The topic is hunting points NOT Zuma.
The mods have advised PM's for personal business.
PM me if you have a problem with my participation here.
Zuma
This includes the Large # of others.
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Looks good to me Iowa. What stone did you use? I have killed only one deer with one of my heads which was made out of Flintridge material.
congrats on your deer. I have been a bow hunter for over 50 years and there are no bad kills.
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Congratulations, John. I thought you were using a glass point when I saw the picture.
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Thanks guys, I passed on this deer 2 times and told Annette that I was going to take it the next time it came through. The arrow hit the heart and it ran about 40 yards I am guessing. Eddie your right it does look like glass and thank you.
JEB I used Burlington flint and congrats on yours also. It's such a great feeling to make the point and see good results in the end.
I am in the process of making a few new shafts and points, deer season opens again in about a week and hoping for one more.
I might try a new style from Cahokia mound 72 but not sure which one.
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Congrats on the deer John, point look cool and I can see it is deadly. Pictures please ;)
Pappy
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The setup produced good penetration. The arrow entry was not planned. The deer came in and I waited till it was broadside gave a grunt to stop the guy and picked a spot. He jumped the string after the release and turned to go back the direction he came and caught the arrow square.
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I never carry a knife. The creeks in southeast iowa and this midwest reagion contain chert in the creeks. Behind the deer is a creek I jumped in and made a flake knife. It is also the same location I found a primitive flake knife and spear point. In this photo you can see the flake knife.
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Thanks guys. My purposes here is to share information that produced good results. It is important to pass on this kind of information so that new comers to primitive archer have information to make the best equipment they can. This bow and arrow setup has taken two deer. The photo below shows how the sinew wrap functioned to prevent the shaft from splitting. I think this is particularly important information because the arrow hit bone. Also the shaft wrap did not fail when the attaching wrap was cut.
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Very nice, Thanks. :)
Pappy
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Great deer, bloody arrow, self bow, damp fall leaves.....Heavenly
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John this story is another great example of the persistence it takes to do this thing we do. We who have committed ourselves to the hardest form of archery hunting, realize our success rate will diminish. We realize our failures will mount. Our frustration will be profound at times and we will be faced with questioning our true motives for hunting. While many of our friends scoff at our choice we continue to make this personal challenge relevant to the only person that matters - the guy who's teeth we brush.
If I were trying to kill a deer in the most ethical manner I would use a variety of other weapons more efficient than self gear. The fact is, that's not my goal. My goal is personal, just as yours is. And it requires a level of determination few people in this nation are capable of comprehending. We who walk this path don't do it for reality show ratings or the approval of the outspoken. We do it for ourselves.
When a story like this is penned and you are allowed to read it, I encourage you to read between the lines. Keep your criticism to yourself, and try to appreciate the thousands of hours of work that have gone into this accomplishment. This deer represent more than the sum of a successful hunt. It represents a whole lotta failure... and a few successes! John, my prayer is that your failures are fewer and your successes many! GOOD HUNT!
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Well said Scott! Very well said! Josh
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I hear the ring of major selfishness here, as well as attempted
censorship of other's thoughts and ideas about ethical hunting.
What is wrong with some advice about staying on the target range
until the time you won't miss? Or at least not miss ALOT.
And please re-haft a new point and give the animals a better
chance at a quick death. You have plenty of them Iowa.
Iowa I assume you were not joking about missing a lot, as it seems
only the others will tackle my replies? And I also PMed you all in hopes
to keep your thread on topic and not being hijacked. I have fielded
more than your share of provocative questions here in the recent past.
Please reply on Message Board Rules
Thanks Zuma
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Don, I have endeavored to give you the benefit of the doubt and ignore some of your less informed statements. However, you are proving to be something of a bully and I don't care for it. You stand alone in this confrontational approach, and, since there seems to be no support for your comments you should ask yourself if there be any basis for your assertions. The fact is your assault of John's character is unnecessary and needs to stop. Those of us who know Iowabow, can vouch for his integrity. And while some your requests have the appearance of propriety, your condescending tone shows your true motives.
To conclude: censorship hasn't happened yet, nor are you making friends. So what's your purpose here? Just a friendly question.
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This really is barbaric. YES I MISS ALOT Get the out of the woods dude.
Zuma
Did I MISS some thing here?
Or are you just kidding? I hope so.
[/quote]
bar·bar·ic
bärˈberik/
adjective
1.
savagely cruel; exceedingly brutal.
"he had carried out barbaric acts in the name of war"
synonyms: brutal, barbarous, brutish, bestial, savage, vicious, wicked, cruel, ruthless, merciless, villainous, murderous, heinous, monstrous, vile, inhuman, infernal, dark, fiendish, diabolical
"barbaric crimes"
2.
primitive; unsophisticated.
"the barbaric splendor he found in civilizations since destroyed"
synonyms: brutal, barbarous, brutish, bestial, savage, vicious, wicked, cruel, ruthless, merciless, villainous, murderous, heinous, monstrous, vile, inhuman, infernal, dark, fiendish, diabolical
"barbaric crimes"
Zuma, what is the point of your existence and participation other than to troll on this forum. You have no business directing/telling or even suggesting to ANYONE on here to get out of the woods. If hunting and harvesting game in the purest form offends you, then perhaps you need to find another forum to troll. I'm certain Opra and Martha Stewart have forums that wild be better suited to your delicate sensitivities.
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This really is barbaric. YES I MISS ALOT Get the out of the woods dude.
Zuma
Did I MISS some thing here?
Or are you just kidding? I hope so.
bar·bar·ic
bärˈberik/
adjective
1.
savagely cruel; exceedingly brutal.
"he had carried out barbaric acts in the name of war"
synonyms: brutal, barbarous, brutish, bestial, savage, vicious, wicked, cruel, ruthless, merciless, villainous, murderous, heinous, monstrous, vile, inhuman, infernal, dark, fiendish, diabolical
"barbaric crimes"
2.
primitive; unsophisticated.
"the barbaric splendor he found in civilizations since destroyed"
synonyms: brutal, barbarous, brutish, bestial, savage, vicious, wicked, cruel, ruthless, merciless, villainous, murderous, heinous, monstrous, vile, inhuman, infernal, dark, fiendish, diabolical
"barbaric crimes"
Zuma, what is the point of your existence and participation other than to troll on this forum. You have no business directing/telling or even suggesting to ANYONE on here to get out of the woods. If hunting and harvesting game in the purest form offends you, then perhaps you need to find another forum to troll. I'm certain Opra and Martha Stewart have forums that would be better suited to your delicate sensitivities.
[/quote]
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Message Board Rules 8)
Zuma
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Hey John, how wide is this point? Mine are triangular about 13/16" wide at the base. Mine do alright for the most part, but the tips break off pretty easy. Your point style seems to be considerably more robust in regards to hard impacts. They're definitely effective considering the critter only made it 40 yds. I've tracked deer that have been shot through both lungs with a rifle for over a mile on several occasions. Josh
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Josh the point is 1 1/6 at the base and the lengh is 2 1/4 inches long. I think the curved sides, lens shaped center section and curve tip to base helps to transfer as much energy and shock to the shaft. This is just a guess but it works with arches so maybe this helps explain why the point handles the abuse I deliver to my equipment. I have driven the same point into the frozen earth multiples times and the points just seem to take it. These points are thick by modern knapping standards but this provides an advantage when your point finds the dirt. There is a bonus to the thick design because you will have material left to retouch the point.
The reason he went down so fast was because he was hit in the heart. Josh I took him in my woods near the creek where you gathered that raw Burlington and I was on the ground.
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This really is barbaric. YES I MISS ALOT Get the out of the woods dude.
Zuma
Did I MISS some thing here?
Or are you just kidding? I hope so.
bar·bar·ic
bärˈberik/
adjective
1.
primitive; unsophisticated.
This would be my best choice
Zuma, what is the point of your existence
I wish I could use raw langusge to express my disapointment
for your totally underhanded remark
You have no business directing/telling or even suggesting to ANYONE on here to get out of the woods.
Please express your sentence in the relm of the rules of the message board.
Thank you lol Zuma
[/quote]
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Iowabow: How thin are you getting your bases? I try and get them thin as possible for hafting reasons. I hate to loose a lot of wood on the end of my arrow because of thick bases. I may have to try some of that Burlington material as it sounds like it can take some punishment.
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Nice kill John! I have a few artifact points that have the same shape as your point, and I have noticed that they too are a lot thicker than most modern knapped points. Your point looks like it is very true in shape. I will try post a photo or two of the artifacts. One actually looked like the tip did brake off, but it was re -sharpened with a circular tip but still very sharp. It may have been used as a scraper, but that is just me guessing. It is the only one I have ever seen like it.
Neal
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Iowabow: How thin are you getting your bases? I try and get them thin as possible for hafting reasons. I hate to loose a lot of wood on the end of my arrow because of thick bases. I may have to try some of that Burlington material as it sounds like it can take some punishment.
I don't think the base is over an 3/16 at the thickest. I have another arrow to halve so I will take pictures and provide better data as I put it together for you. That way we can all start comparing information.
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Nice kill John! I have a few artifact points that have the same shape as your point, and I have noticed that they too are a lot thicker than most modern knapped points. Your point looks like it is very true in shape. I will try post a photo or two of the artifacts. One actually looked like the tip did brake off, but it was re -sharpened with a circular tip but still very sharp. It may have been used as a scraper, but that is just me guessing. It is the only one I have ever seen like it.
Neal
I think that would be cool for us all to see. Feel free to post it here if you like.
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Ok this is going to sound over the edge but I am going go out on a limb here. I just had a thought about the differences between modern metal deer hunting points and flint point design.
Ok this maybe a new idea so it's going to sound crazy at first so be kind.
Flint points need to be fatter in the center or could benefit from being. This will help prevent low penetration in at least some circumstances. This is my logic. A point with relatively simular thickness could lead to sinew failure as it passes through bone. If the tail is thinner and the sinew sits below the thickest plane the sinew has a chance of survivability. If it fails the point could rotate and divert energy. With this said did arrow head design use this idea I have no idea. Fun thought?
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Ok, lemme get this straight in my head.
The point is at it's thickest somewhere just ahead of the base, right? So as the thickness of the point passes thru, for instance, the rib you pictured, it would open a passage that the sinew wrap may pass thru with less resistance? Ok, I can see that.
I think there was something in the Ashby research about how a shaft slightly smaller than the cross section of the broadhead suffered less from resistance/drag/friction from the wound channel and gained penetration.
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John, I think this may have been a sid e benfit and not the original intent, The bases need to be thin so there is some shaft dia left to work with. :o Just my .02 worth Sometimes I think we tend to over think alot of primitive stuff, NA people were excellent trackers so a less than perfect hit was no big deal, Didn't have to punch a clock at 8 in the morning the next day. :D Bob
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John, I think this may have been a sid e benfit and not the original intent, The bases need to be thin so there is some shaft dia left to work with. :o Just my .02 worth Sometimes I think we tend to over think alot of primitive stuff, NA people were excellent trackers so a less than perfect hit was no big deal, Didn't have to punch a clock at 8 in the morning the next day. :D Bob
My thought was about the point having a constant thin thickness without the center thickness. Sorry I did not make that clear my fault. Bob it a trait of mine to over think things just thought I would throw it out there.
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Ok, lemme get this straight in my head.
The point is at it's thickest somewhere just ahead of the base, right? So as the thickness of the point passes thru, for instance, the rib you pictured, it would open a passage that the sinew wrap may pass thru with less resistance? Ok, I can see that.
I think there was something in the Ashby research about how a shaft slightly smaller than the cross section of the broadhead suffered less from resistance/drag/friction from the wound channel and gained penetration.
yep that says it better
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John, It takes extra work to make a point flat or same thickness front to back. the natural thinning process leaves our points naturally thicker towards center. NA says good enough were not making art we are making meat , Let's Go! :D Again just my.02 worth, :o Heck any ole knapper can make points with a thick middle, just look at my points for example. It's hard to make flat thin pretty ones. ;D Bob
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John, It takes extra work to make a point flat or same thickness front to back. the natural thinning process leaves our points naturally thicker towards center. NA says good enough were not making art we are making meat , Let's Go! :D Again just my.02 worth, :o Heck any ole knapper can make points with a thick middle, just look at my points for example. It's hard to make flat thin pretty ones. ;D Bob
I think we agree
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Yep,, Now what am I going to make, functional point, functional art or just art.hmmmm :o ;D ;D Bob
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Yep,, Now what am I going to make, functional point, functional art or just art.hmmmm :o ;D ;D Bob
I think this is a real good point you make. Does form follow function or function follow form. With arrowheads it is a real good question because "style" meant something to those who were creating points. We have many different forms that accomplish the same task. So you have hit on a really good point that I don't have an easy answer to.
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My easy answer is. I'm just going to keep making points as long as I still can. :) Time sadly is not on my side, still in good health so I am just going to keep pounding out the points ;D Bob
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My easy answer is. I'm just going to keep making points as long as I still can. :) Time sadly is not on my side, still in good health so I am just going to keep pounding out the points ;D Bob
cool
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Yep,, Now what am I going to make, functional point, functional art or just art.hmmmm :o ;D ;D Bob
I think this is a real good point you make. Does form follow function or function follow form. With arrowheads it is a real good question because "style" meant something to those who were creating points. We have many different forms that accomplish the same task. So you have hit on a really good point that I don't have an easy answer to.
I think it is safe to say that form follows function.
Probably thousands of hafted foreshafts, fit with projectile points, have been recovered, from archaeological contexts, in both North America, and Central America. If you look at these foreshafts, with hafted points, you can see how the points match up to the hafting. It would be worth posting photos of such foreshafts, with fitted points. They usually are found in dry cave sites, rock shelters, etc, in the west, and in desert areas.
Also, this thread may say something about Clovis. In some cases, Clovis repair stations are found, where broken Clovis points were removed from the hafts, and new points were refitted, with the broken points being discarded.
What I realized while reading this thread is that the Clovis haft must have been stronger than the Clovis point. So, when "push came to shove" it was the point that broke upon impact. And, from this I think that it can be inferred that the haft had to have been stronger than the point.
That being said, I believe I ran across a comment years ago, while going through ethnological literature. And, according to the comment, I believe it was explained that California arrowmakers made more deeply hafted points, for greater strength. I do not remember where I read this. If I took a guess, it might have been in the works of Otis Tufton Mason, but I cannot say for sure. I believe it was from an early author, an individual who was acquainted with the works of California arrowmakers. So, Mason is the best guess.
Also, it might be of value to study examples of points found embedded in bone. This could indicate the inherent strength of different point types. And, if parts of the point broke, during impact, it may give clues regarding the weaker areas.
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Foreshafts and haft from White Dog Cave:
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b113/Red_Coyote/WDC10.jpg) (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/Red_Coyote/media/WDC10.jpg.html)
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Eskimo hafting systems and points:
http://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/flint-arrowpoints/ (http://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/flint-arrowpoints/)
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Foreshaft from cave in Grand Gulch Utah:
http://ehumanitydev.pti.indiana.edu/multimedia/nmai/2/10869_NMAI_55548/full/127.700x700.jpg (http://ehumanitydev.pti.indiana.edu/multimedia/nmai/2/10869_NMAI_55548/full/127.700x700.jpg)
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Beautiful Eskimo flint head with foreshaft:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a3/56/f6/a356f670e2e831f230b0f0bc834616c2.jpg (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a3/56/f6/a356f670e2e831f230b0f0bc834616c2.jpg)
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Hafted foreshafts from New Mexico:
https://hands.unm.edu/atlatls.html (https://hands.unm.edu/atlatls.html)
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16th century Navajo hafted foreshaft with chalcedony point:
http://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/chcu/obj/fullres/arrow_chcu4782_full.html
(http://)
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El Paso - Ceremonial cave - hafted foreshaft
http://pmem.unix.fas.harvard.edu:8080/peabody/media/view/Objects/270465/295572?t:state:flow=dc64f4f0-0bce-4b05-ac02-baf94b7251d9 (http://pmem.unix.fas.harvard.edu:8080/peabody/media/view/Objects/270465/295572?t:state:flow=dc64f4f0-0bce-4b05-ac02-baf94b7251d9)
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Chavez Cave - hafted foreshaft
http://pmem.unix.fas.harvard.edu:8080/peabody/media/view/Objects/270491/290912?t:state:flow=669fc343-bb88-4493-8ba4-a45de91c56cc (http://pmem.unix.fas.harvard.edu:8080/peabody/media/view/Objects/270491/290912?t:state:flow=669fc343-bb88-4493-8ba4-a45de91c56cc)
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Utah - hafted foreshaft - Nine Mile Canyon
http://pmem.unix.fas.harvard.edu:8080/peabody/media/view/Objects/26154/171759?t:state:flow=f62ba230-e99a-429d-82b7-41f2d42956df (http://pmem.unix.fas.harvard.edu:8080/peabody/media/view/Objects/26154/171759?t:state:flow=f62ba230-e99a-429d-82b7-41f2d42956df)
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AT thanks for the info. I visited the ST Louis Art Museum yesterday and came across this interesting display. The tag really doesn't give us a lot of details but it is interesting to see this selection because it contains a range of intention.
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Couple more photos
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I got photo bombed it looks like by that kid.
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I would like to know the whole story these objects could tell.
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Original points are interesting, no doubt. BUT...the pieces posted above make my mind whirl!!!