Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Frodolf on November 30, 2015, 05:09:33 am
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I've just started making heavy bows, and the first three 80+# bows so far has gone well (juniper, hazel, elm). Frustration in stringing the bows led me to buying my first roll of Fast Flight +. And my gosh, it's so much easier to work with than B-50!
I have a problem though. It seems my standard "timber hitch in the bottom nock"-thing doesn't really work very well with FF and heavy bows. The knot often slips, despite three turns in the knot, and if it doesn't in cinches down on the bow so hard that is really crushes the wood (I use horn overlays and the wood being crushed is on the belly side of the nock). Also, the string tends to get crushed as well, looking kind of thrashed and crushed when I unstring the bow.
What do you guys do about this? Do you ignore it? Do you tie some other knot? Do you make "endless" strings with double loops? Then what about tillering strings? Do you beef up the loop and end of the string any?
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I make continuous loop (double loop) strings so they can't slip. That would also solve the belly wood damage problem.
Full horn nocks work well, they are a pain in the backside until you have done a few.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1VHUkDEGJA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1VHUkDEGJA)
Del
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I see. That' a very good video, thanks!
But what about when you're tillering the bow, going from long string to low brace to full brace, before getting the horn nocks on? Do you have various continuous loop strings for various lengths, or to you use a timber hitch or some other knot/hitch which doesn't cinch the bow as hard?
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See previous videos!
Here at about 3mins 30 secs...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8OjC7HV4Bk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8OjC7HV4Bk)
I have one V long string with big loops and a toroidal piece of aluminium which I thread the string through to shorten it.
Del
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My 2c worth - I have a couple of different lengths of paracord with loops at both end for tillering, and I make a new string for each new bow once they're tillered to brace height.
The paracord tillering strings support bows of any weight well past 200lb, and you don't usually have loads of different length staves in the first place - most of the time you cut a piece to length depending on what you're making. That means you can have about 3 different tillering strings of paracord and you never need to keep adjusting them. The exception to this is when you have to pike a bow, or you're working with something unusually short/long.
If you can make a Flemish twist bowstring with two laid-in loops, you also shouldn't have a problem with the actual bowstring. After a few practice attempts, its fairly easy to knock up a finished bowstring in about 5 minutes without even using a jig of any sort, and if you have a way of knowing how long to make a string depending on the finished bow, again there's no faffing about with changing lengths etc.
To clarify, this is my procedure:
1. Cut stave to normal length (77" for example if making a self Yew warbow)
2. Select paracord tillering string for 77" stave
3. Tiller to brace height
4. Make Flemish twist string with loops at both end for 77" bow using formula for strand length
5. Fit string and brace bow
6. Tiller to 29.5", watch bow explode in spectacular fashion, swear loudly and return to step 1.
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Haha! Or you just tiller it to 29" and call it a day! :-)
So the consensus is to make a proper loop in each end of the string. Got it. And I guess a knot is out of the question, like a bowline knot or something like that, to create the second loop?
On a related note, do you guys ever braid loops instead of just twist them? I was experimenting with this a little bit the other day: I started with making a three-ply flemish twist loop, but instead of twisting the three short and three long together to complete the loop I simply braided them together, like you would when braiding hair. No twist. My little test seemed to hold up well, but I can't recall hearing about anyone doing it that way. A benefit of this would be that the braid can't get untwisted, like a twist can, when twisting a loop in the other end of the string.
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Well that was just my method. I know plenty of people who use a bowyers knot (timber hitch) at the other end. In fact I think it's probably more common to see a heavy bow use a bowyers knot than double loop.
Personally I find them fiddly and a pain to get off, but certainly with side nocks they are far better, and I guess with practice they become just as easy as double loops.
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As a quick addition - its also quite common to combine the two into one loop - you lay a proper loop into the string as if making a double loop string, but then pass the string through the loop so you get the advantage of the self-tightening loop which works exceptionally well with side nocks.
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@Will
How many of these yew bows do you have under your belt? Just curious.
Harvest your own yew?
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Honestly no idea! I tend to just make them when I feel like it, so I can't really keep track. Some get shot until they break, some get given away to people, some get made and are too light or too odd looking to sell/gift so they go on the rack and get forgotten. I'm still learning so I consider all of them practice bows I guess. Maybe if I sell them properly at some stage I'll have a better idea of how many I make but I'm not that bothered.
I've never made a laminate before, and only really use ash or yew or a few other odd bits and pieces I come across. I'd say aside from maybe 10 or so bows made of various white woods the rest have been yew as its easy for me to get.
Yes, I have cut and seasoned my own. In fact I think I've only ever bought one actual stave and the occasional set of logs. Its not rare in the UK, so there's not really any reason to pay somebody else to find it for me. I'll buy timber if its exceptionally good or exceptionally cheap of course...
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Honestly no idea! I tend to just make them when I feel like it, so I can't really keep track. Some get shot until they break, some get given away to people, some get made and are too light or too odd looking to sell/gift so they go on the rack and get forgotten. I'm still learning so I consider all of them practice bows I guess. Maybe if I sell them properly at some stage I'll have a better idea of how many I make but I'm not that bothered.
I've never made a laminate before, and only really use ash or yew or a few other odd bits and pieces I come across. I'd say aside from maybe 10 or so bows made of various white woods the rest have been yew as its easy for me to get.
Yes, I have cut and seasoned my own. In fact I think I've only ever bought one actual stave and the occasional set of logs. Its not rare in the UK, so there's not really any reason to pay somebody else to find it for me. I'll buy timber if its exceptionally good or exceptionally cheap of course...
I'm a noob to bowmaking.
Nice that you cut and season your own. 2-5 years is a lot of waiting though!
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I have found it next to impossible to use a timber hitch with FF on heavy weight bows. The material is just too slippery
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I'm a noob to bowmaking.
Nice that you cut and season your own. 2-5 years is a lot of waiting though!
IT DOESN'T TAKE 2-5 YEARS.
This sort of misinformation just puts off aspiring bowyers. There is a lot of nonsense out there.
1 year will season a even a warbow sized piece of timber if it is sensibly reduced and stored. Maybe it takes longer if you have whole logs un-split... but that's just a bonkers way to season wood for bows. (other opinions are available... terms and conditions apply)
Del
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I think "dry" and "seasoned" are two different things Del, which is probably where the alternative opinions come from. Dry takes maybe a year or so. Seasoned takes... Seasons. Hence the name.
You can let a bow lose all its moisture and become equal with the RH but that doesn't necessarily mean its "seasoned".
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I think "dry" and "seasoned" are two different things Del, which is probably where the alternative opinions come from. Dry takes maybe a year or so. Seasoned takes... Seasons. Hence the name.
You can let a bow lose all its moisture and become equal with the RH but that doesn't necessarily mean its "seasoned".
If it's had a year, then it's been through 4 seasons 8)... it's not just about time, it's about conditions.
5 Years under a tarpaulin will do nothing but encourage rot. One year in an open sided structure with good airflow and out of the frost will produce decent timber if it is roughed to an appropriate size (say quartered or halfed depending on log size.
Del
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it's not just about time, it's about conditions.
That's what I meant. You can "dry" a piece of wood in a dry room in about a year. You have to expose the wood to cold and hot airflow over various seasons to "season" wood. That's my understanding anyway.
Considering that some of the best bowyers working with yew leave their timber for at least 5 years says something. If you could produce really good seasoned timber in a year just by making it smaller, there wouldn't be any reason to wait. I strongly believe there's a huge advantage in letting it sit for a number of years at least.
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Del, There is definitely a feeling on some folks part that changes in the wood continue even after the wood is fully dried. I've never seen any scientific article on what this additional 'Seasoning" does, but I am one of those that thinks a little extra time in the drying rack can produce a better bow. Maybe that's just an excuse to collect wood faster than I can use it. Either way it works for me. Ron
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Yes the wood may change a little, (E.G we all know the colour changes), but I feel the difference is marginal at best.
I'm just trying to discourage a self confessed newbie being put off by being told it takes 2-5 years ::).
I speak from my own personal experience (I have a 40 year old Yew ELB to back up my opinion).
And I'll happily accept that some of the "best bowyers" are on this forum and I'll respect their opinions.
Del
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It is interesting how things change like a pendulum swings. The old, accepted dogma was that it takes years to season bow wood. Then came Comstock who made excellent, hard-hitting, durable whitewood bows from trees cut two or three months earlier. "”What matters is getting the wood to 9 % moisture without damaging the wood. From a practical standpoint, that’s all that matters”, he wrote.
Baker took Comstock's approach and ran with it, experimentally plowing through loads of variously seasoned yew, osage, elm, ash, hickory etc. etc. His data clearly supported Comstock's findings: getting wood dry is all that matters. Thousands of quick-dried bows were made all over the world following Baker's publications, even though even this approach was nothing new, just ask any aboriginal bowyer.
Many would scoff at Baker and his Californian kiln-dried flatbows, but he did build hundreds of yew bows, as well, out of staves seasoned in myriad ways and schedules. Result: seasoning makes no difference, as long as wood MC ends up appropriate. Too bad Baker bowed out before presenting his Seasoning methods and Yew performance data in minute detail, here in this neo-conservative bowyery era. It's almost as if there's an innate need to crush preceding views and make up something new, even if it meant going backwards.
The same caveat applies to professional yew bowyers today as it did in earlier times: these guys have full pipelines of wood of various age, never running out of years-old wood to make bows (and if your competitors claim Highly Seasoned Yew, you better follow). They have no need to use six-month-old wood, like the budding backyard bowyer. Claims that wood needs to be seasoned for years play in the pocket of professional bowyers, but more importantly, damage primitive archery as a whole.
Me, I've built a couple hundred bows out of maybe 30 different wood species, 90 % of it self-harvested and dried. I have occasionally made bows from trees that were alive just 10 days earlier; most of the time my wood sits a couple of months between felling and tillering. I have not seen evidence of any gain from letting wood sit beyond getting it to a low-enough MC (which can take a good while or never happen, if drying conditions are sub-optimal). Now, I happen to have a bunch of staves that have sat for 6 - 10 years. I'll keep my eyes open, as always.
Tuukka
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I guess it is now just a matter of finding a piece of yew that is straight and knot free, splitting it and leaving it for a year.
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Knots aren't usually a problem. Plenty of good bows are full of knots. Don't discard any yew if it has knots and is otherwise "perfect".
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Sorry I meant 'big knots's', such as huge braches.
So just straight with no twist?
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Some twist is ok. You can get away with murder using yew.
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Thought I would reclaim this thread a little. ;)
I'll make a continuous/endless loop string for my bow. I've never made one before, and the tutorials I find all involve rather fancy jigs and seem to make the whole affair more complex than necessary. So I thought I'd stick to the description in TBB, which seems simple enough.
I have a question though. In the description in TBB they simply tie the ends together with what to me looks like a reef knot. But that worries me a bit with fast flight since it's such a slippery material. Is a reef knot strong enough for fast flight? I was thinking maybe a water knot would be preferable (harder to tie really tight though, but stronger and less slippery).
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I do it like that, the reef knot is under the serving for the loop and that, combined with all the tension and twist in the finished sting grips it into effectively a solid bundle. I've never had a string made like that shift... even at 275# draw weigth :o
My string jig is made from some Dexion (angle section steel) with wire fence tensioning loops.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/roys-bow-and-stringing-jig.html (http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/roys-bow-and-stringing-jig.html)
It's been improved since that pic... I can post some detail pics if you want.
You need some way of holding good tension while doing the serving.
Del
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Well, Del, I see now the importance of tension in the string when serving it! Especially fast flight since the serving thread I used tended to slip very easily on it. It took some fiddling to get started on each serving.
The result? The string ended up 2" too short and with a pretty ugly serving job.
Can't figure out why it ended up so much shorter. I braced the bow with my tillering string and measured that string's length from loop to loop. I made the continuous loop string half an inch longer thinking the serving would maybe eat up a little string length. But where did 2 inches go? Is there some secret length formula here that I don't know about, or does it sound more like I, despite my best effort, simply screwed up the measurements?
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I have a pretty fool proof way of getting it right... with NO MEASUREMENTS!
I have a very long string sting with big loops that I use for tillering. I have an aluminium ring that I thread the string through several times to effectively shorten it, fine length adjustment is then by twisting. When I need to make the proper sting, I adjust my string jig so that the tillering string just goes over the hooks and then I make up the continuous loop for the string. The adjusters can then be slackened off to pull one side of the skein out the way with an S shaped piece of wire (bent nail/coathanger etc) hooked into one of the holes in the jig. The tension is then wound back on and the serving for the first loop done.
The pic shows one end of the jig (the adjustable end) it's basically two lentgths of Dexion angle. They can be adjusted to approx the right distance and bolted together the adjustable hook on each end (made from a fence wire tensioning eye, with end opened out) gives fine adjustment.
Look at this video (at 3mins40 secs) for the long string, shortening toggle explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8OjC7HV4Bk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8OjC7HV4Bk)
If you want I'll do a video of the whole string making process next time I make one.
Del
(I've added more pics (don't look at the "welding" it's tricky to weld to the holes :( :laugh: ... )
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Thanks for the pics, Del! I understand your setup and it looks good. It's interesting how different bowyers find different solutions to common problems! A question though: do you compensate any for string stretch? I mean, your tillering string is bound to be less stretchy than your freshly made continuous loop string. In other words, if you make the string the exact same length as your tillering string, won't you end up with a string that stretches when you brace the bow, making it a tad too long?
Anyway, lacking any sort of stringing jig (or materials to make one) I went ahead and tried another possible solution, to make a 2-ply flemish twist string and then braid a second loop in the other end instead of a timber hitch (as shown in Twisted Stave's video linked below, I tip my hat in his direction for the vid!). And it actually works really well! I like it already because of three reasons: 1) you don't need any sort of jig, 2) it's adjustable – if you make a too long or too short a string you can simply unbraid it and adjust the length appropriately, takes about 20 minutes. This means you have the possibility to adjust the string to fit another bow if the need arises. And 3) you don't need to serve the string a bunch (something I find quite boring to do :) ).
Considering that Fast Flight is substantially more slippery that B-50, I braided the string about 8-10" to be safe. That means you probably end up with a slightly heavier string than a continuous loop string, so that's a drawback, but a minor one IMO.
I haven't yet had time to put this braided string to the test with a lot of shooting, but from what I can tell the braid seems solid and very durable. One could probably serve the braid if one wishes to beef it up further.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfyPOikbBvA
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Good questions!
I set the jig so I can just get the tillering string on and off it. The continuous loop is wound on with light tension (so the strands are even and not flopping about getting tangled). By the time it is made and twisted it should be a whisker short... but that just compensates for the little bit of stretch you get with a new string. :) I also apply plenty of tension when I twist it and serve the end serving together at each end to make the actual loop.
Del