Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: killir duck on February 01, 2016, 12:24:20 pm
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Hey guys, I've been trying to figure out this question for a couple weeks now and haven't found a good answer yet. How much did plains Indian arrows weigh? I've been building some exact replicas of Sioux arrows that the local museum has and they have all come in at 355-368 grains (with a 70 gn point, which is about what the several original stone points from the area that I have weighed weighed) for the red osier, 390-415 for the dogbane and 413-421 for chokecherry. These weights seem somewhat light, figuring 10 grains per pound of bow weight, and I have read that most plains bows were around 45#, then the chokecherry is pretty close. Though where the 45# figure comes from I don't know, I have build several sinew backed chokecherry and ash plains style bows of the same or smaller size then the real ones and have had no trouble reaching weights of up to 70#. 45# is easier to handle horseback then 70#, I have shot off one of my horses quite a bit and going at a lope 70 is a bit tough but 60 wasn't too bad, with the amount of practice natives would have i see no reason why Indians couldn't have been shooting 70#+. So back to the arrow weight question, maybe first we need to know how much penetration was required? There's a big difference between an antelope and a buffalo, on an antelope a 45# bow and a 400 grain arrow is fine, but in my experience that's not gonna cut it with bigger game like elk or buffalo.
Anyways thanks for reading my rambling, hopefully you guys can shed some light on the subject.
Have a good one, Duck
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Ten gpp is a modern value that probably wasn't a consideration for the NA.
I've made red osier, viburnum and sourwood shoot arrows that weighed between 500gr and 700gr, complete with stone heads or trade points I used pitch glue and sinew for the points and sinew for the fletching.
Are you using mature shoots of just first year growth?
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If you made exact copies I would suspect that the weights you got are about right. I wouldn't think they worried about 10GPP or such. Possibly if they noticed that their arrows weren't penetrating well they might equate that with weight but I think they would be more impressed with distance(read light)
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What I'm thinking is 10 grains per pound of bow weight is more less the optimal weight for the best combination of speed and penetration right? I doubt N.A.s used any tools that were anything less then optimum for the job considering available materials and tools.
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You can shoot 7-8gpp with korean horn bows. I bet the short juniper native american bows are pretty fast... and the short plains sinew backed gull wing bows should be more than fast enough for 10gpp without handshock? But may get more kinetic energy with more weight
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Primitive people had a totally different mindset than we do today. There was no PETA or other animal rights organizations, no state game laws, etc. They used their bows and arrows for food or protection. Their tracking skills were honed and hunger or fear drove them.
Today we have the game laws, we have animal rights folks to deal with and we have our own ethics to deal with. Our bows and arrows are used for fun whether it be for hunting or target shooting
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That's an angle I hadn't thought about Pat, I think maybe you nailed it.
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Arrow wieghts varied widely, even in the same batch. There are some sources that sbow the weights for arrows but the unit is usually in grams so the data isnt often copied into the pool of knowledge available to the general public.
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I am in agreement with Jackcrafty and Pat. Those guys shot lots of arrows, but they didn't worry about how many grains they were shooting. Mixed batches were probably the norm. Curtis
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You shoot that often with that much on the line, I guarantee any decent N.A. archer knew exactly how to adjust their elevation just by feeling the arrow they pulled out of the quiver.
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O.T. Mason, who personally studied a vast number of Native American archery items had this to say in his North American Bows, Arrows and Quivers (1893): "”The arrows of one quiver agree, absolutely.”
Others who have studied a large number of Plains arrows at the Smithsonian etc. report that the arrow shafts are strikingly uniform in diameter, both within a shaft and across a large number of them. Arrow shafts were sized to particular, proven sizes, and when made from particular, proven raw materials, ended up with similar characteristics. Among many NA peoples, arrows were made by dedicated specialists, precisely because making good arrows was so important, and so difficult.
Yes, they had a different mindset and priorities. But even with no PETA in sight, you need to kill the game animals efficiently and predictably to feed your family. An arrow that flies erratically, whether due to having a wrong spine or other reasons, does not penetrate nearly as well, or hit nearly as precisely, as a good arrow does. You don't need to shoot the biggest land animal in North America like the Plains peoples did, to learn this real quick.
Not all museum quivers contain matched arrows. Absent detailed collecting histories, one can always suspect many are not original in composition but rather indiscriminately put together. Also true that different situations called for different arrows. A long-range fighting arrow was thinner and lighter, and with a smaller head and fletching than a buffalo arrow, for instance.
Many of the big game iron arrowheads from the Plains were seriously heavy. The various repros I have weigh from 190 to 250 grains a piece. Coupled with a short, thin hardwood shoot shaft, these arrows end up weighing around 500 grains or more, with a massive FOC %. Stone arrowheads are much lighter, though, better fitted with longer, heavier shafts to make up for the difference. Even with the 48 - 50-inch selfbows I make and shoot, under 10 grains per pound simply lacks the oomph.
Tuukka
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Thanks for your insight, sumpitan.
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the ones i seen in books look to be all around the same size. as if the person making them made the same sized arrow for the entire group maybe? { bows arrows and quivers of the American frontier}if so they would be close in weight im thinking. anyways "if" you wanted to make yours the same weight and use a primitive tool {non modern scale} to get them close i have one i built . ill post a pic soon as i dig it out{ find it}. it works like my spine tester works.you take a good shooting arrow your happy with as far as penetration goes, after youve spined out the shaft to match other shafts you copied from your good arrow you take said shafts tie one on one side, tie one on another side, then hold in middle. if it tilts one way or the other the weight is off. you can adjust if its too heavy but not too light.if its too heavy you can reduce length a very little { not to mess up spine} or you can reduce diam. a little but not at center of shaft{ again trying to keep spine} you can weight your points with same tool. but it all hinges on have 1 great arrow to start with.Tony
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No matter how painful it might be to accept the idea of random arrow weights, that's the way it was. Arrow makers were much more concerned with flexibility and the ability of the arrow to fly straight out of a particular bow. That's what the data suggests, not me.
Don't worry, it was hard for me to accept this also.
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Probably doesn't matter that much at shorter ranges if the difference isn't huge... ...
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Thanks guys, lots of good stuff.
So I'm sure they at least hand spined the shafts and grouped similar ones together, same with weight right? Maybe +/- 30 grains? to achieve accuracy your arrows have to match at least somewhat close. Maybe a more important question is what were the typical hunting ranges? Your arrows don't have to be perfect for 10 yards but for 40 they better be pretty good. Another thing to think about is these short bows are really tough to shoot well at extended ranges, maybe only 8-12 yards was normal hunting range, even now the average shot on deer is shorter then you would think I believe it's something like 17.6 yards. It's tough to get a bow drawn on a deer when your that close, of course a bow that's 44" and 22" draw is a lot easierer then 69 and 29.
Maybe I need to hunt with my plains bows this year. Duck
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Here is a set of arrows I made to hunt with in 2009. There are two sourwood shoot arrows and two hill cane arrows.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/09huntingarrows001.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/primitive%20archer/09huntingarrows001.jpg.html)
with 4 different fletch styles...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/09huntingarrows002.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/primitive%20archer/09huntingarrows002.jpg.html)
...and 4 different style and size stone points...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/09huntingarrows003.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/primitive%20archer/09huntingarrows003.jpg.html)
They all shot well from my 56#@26" bow, whichever bow it was. I probable had a few other arrows with trade points and a fluflu in my quiver that year. Arrow weight was around 550gr to 650gr. and were 29" to 30" long(for my 26" draw) It probably doesn't seem to be close enough match to shoot well but I wouldn't hunt with them if they didn't shoot well from the bow I was using. Also I make my arrows one at a time and not in matching sets. Shoot and cane shafting, with its natural taper allows the arrow to shoot well from varying weight bows.
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Killir, just do a quick read on how Ishi made his arrows and how he hunted with them. He would often call in his prey with certain sounds, for example. There are very effective ways of hunting that we are clueless about these days...
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Cool shafts Pat.Alls it takes is one good arrow and placement to fill yer belly.....ha ha.I'm not into making sets normally either of a dozen or so.End up with a a lot of cardboard carpet tubes keeping them all seperated.Still got about 7 of your sourwood shafts here from Tennessee classic a few years ago.Just like the dogwood here really.
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You know I don't think the properties of wood has changed much from now to back then so I bet indian arrow shafts were of substantial weight back then too.500 to 700 grains for sure.
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No matter how painful it might be to accept the idea of random arrow weights, that's the way it was.
Jackcrafty- In your inspection of early arrows, have you seen any indications of tuning or modifications that may have been employed by the NA archers, if weight (and possibly
spine?) variations were the norm?
To myself, it seems reasonable to assume that weights varied more than current practice. Tuukkas quote of Mason does not make clear just how Mason was using the word "agree', but as an archer, I would like to think that those NA shooters did appreciate arrows that shot to a consistent point of aim. I have often wondered if the NA archer may have used adjustments to his shooting technique to affect point of aim in order to make up for arrow differences. Of course, any discussion of drawing practices or aiming methods could be highly speculative, but any Ideas as well as reported observations might be of interest.
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Keep in mind too, the subject line says "Plains" arrows. They were snap shooting, or instinctive shooting a shorter bow and shorter arrows. They were not drawing a 30 inch arrow to an anchor point, and holding it for a shot. The whole style of shooting was different. CC
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Willie, I haven't seen any indications of tuning after the completion of arrows. Like Tipi said, these are Plains arrows we are talking about. Many had carved lighting grooves, for example. Scraping to reduce spine would tend to eliminate these grooves (and might show signs of re-grooving). I have some first hand experience with southern Plains arrows and many were of the composite type (with foreshafts). Tuning may have been done by changing out foreshafts but I have not seen any proof that this was a deliberate tuning strategy. And since it doesn't make sense to scrape cane shafts (which are almost 100 percent foreshafted) I think any tuning would be done early when selecting the material, during straightening, and/or at a time before signs of tuning would be eliminated.
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its not that i dont accept that notion that arrows were of differing weights, lengths, ect. i do. im sure they got real close. much closer than most of us do today. not only that but the hunted in groups. most of us go out with 1 or 2 friends sometimes. i know most times i go all by myself.some folks are happy to hit a paper plate, once in awhile, at 20 yards. im more of a beefsteak tomato person with a worm hole in it at that range with 5 out of 6 arrows. Tony
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I'm kinda thinking it might take a real good tuned arrow for shooting at 10 yds or less instead of a so, so one. A long distance shot has time to straighten up from the paradox of shooting off the hand and handle a lot better then shooting off horse back real close. After all, you want penetration on a buffalo and not have the arrow going in sideways.
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Jackcrafty you make a lot of sense, I have only got to handle couple of these arrows, the rest of my information has been from sources such as books, internet, museums etc. Thanks everyone for their input.
So here's another question, how were the lightning grooves made? I've tried a piece of antler with a hole in it and a sharpened nail inserted so just the tip of the nail is sticking out inside the hole, I've also tried various utility knives, scrapers, flint and obsidian flakes, all have more less worked with varying degrees of success.
The bowyers bible says that if the grooves are made while the shaft is still green they will keep the shaft straighter while drying, I have not tested this but plan to in the next couple days. Thanks, have a good one, Duck
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Jackcrafty you make a lot of sense, I have only got to handle couple of these arrows, the rest of my information has been from sources such as books, internet, museums etc. Thanks everyone for their input.
So here's another question, how were the lightning grooves made? I've tried a piece of antler with a hole in it and a sharpened nail inserted so just the tip of the nail is sticking out inside the hole, I've also tried various utility knives, scrapers, flint and obsidian flakes, all have more less worked with varying degrees of success.
The bowyers bible says that if the grooves are made while the shaft is still green they will keep the shaft straighter while drying, I have not tested this but plan to in the next couple days. Thanks, have a good one, Duck
Killir, I don't know for sure but have cut some shafts in the spring summer when the sap was running. I cut length wise on the outer bark to peel it off. it left a faint mark on the under wood, as it dried it split in the faint mark, kind of a controlled crack. This could be done straight or in more shaped like lightning. just an idea hitting on the superstitions of the natives. Ed
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I'll post a few photos of old grooving tools. This one is mine, patterned after an old one. The holes are for sizing shafts and the hook shaped cut out is for grooving. Curtis
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Well, I thought I had more photos of these things. I'll have to look around some more. This one is Kiowa, made from the end of a knife blade. CC
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Here is my grooving tool. It works well although I don't use it much. It is similar to the one you made Duck...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/arrowmakingtools007.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/primitive%20archer/arrowmakingtools007.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/arrowmakingtools006.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/primitive%20archer/arrowmakingtools006.jpg.html)
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Very cool, thanks guys.