Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on March 03, 2016, 04:02:22 pm

Title: Tip failure
Post by: DC on March 03, 2016, 04:02:22 pm
Need some advice please. This is a Brazilian Walnut tip. This is the second BW tip I have had do this. Needless to say I won't use it any more and I will be changing the other one. It popped and peeled a strip of boo backing down about 6". I got the boo glued back down although it shows. :( Before I put on another tip do you think there is anything wrong with the tip size or design that I should change? The glob of glue in the pictures is from the boo repair.

PS I have been calling this Brazilian Walnut but I think it's actually Peruvian Walnut.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on March 03, 2016, 04:07:16 pm
Hard to say by the pics, got any pre-break? I like my overlays to start 2" long. I use a lot of ipe overlays and have never had that happen.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: DC on March 03, 2016, 04:15:34 pm
Just this one and it's too blurry to see much I think. You jogged my memory when you said Ipe. This was sold to me as Braz walnut(Ipe) but I found out later that there is a good possibility that it's Peruvian Walnut. Whole different beast. With 2" overlays do you put the nock out toward the end?
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: John Scifres on March 03, 2016, 04:19:41 pm
Here's a Tipalong of sorts I did about a million years ago.  I know this is antler but it shows how I do tip overlays.  The only failure I have had is with mesquite with squirelly grain.  It looked about like yours when it broke.  I think you are on the right track in questioning the material.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070704141039/http://residents.bowhunting.net/sticknstring/hbbb3.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20070704141039/http://residents.bowhunting.net/sticknstring/hbbb3.html)

Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on March 03, 2016, 04:20:13 pm
I make the groove stay within the bows core and not past it. That creates leverage, no bueno'.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: DC on March 03, 2016, 04:26:25 pm
OK, longer, I can do that. I don't have antler but I have horn/hoof. I'll do that. Thanks guys
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: wizardgoat on March 03, 2016, 04:43:26 pm
I prefer small overlays, and I only use horn. I've broken an overlay or 2, but only from dropping my tip.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: DC on March 03, 2016, 05:02:33 pm
How long is small, Ryan?
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: Josh B on March 03, 2016, 05:09:07 pm
It's hard to tell from the pic, but it looks like you might have had a bit of a square edge in the bottom of the string groove.  If so that is nearly always a recipe for failure.  It's important to make sure the groove has a smooth radius a little bit larger than the diameter of the string.  No square or sharp edges anywhere the string will contact and proper grain orientation are key to the overlays holding up.  It looks like your grain orientation was adequate, so that probably wasn't the culprit.  It also helps to use a wood with interlocking grain for overlays, just for added durability.  I'm working on overlays right now so I snapped a few pics showing how I eliminate all sharp edges that will let the string get a bite on.  Josh
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: DC on March 03, 2016, 05:53:47 pm
Thanks GD  I'm pretty sure it was rounded and smooth but I will take a close look at the replacements.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 03, 2016, 06:35:28 pm
Pretty sure your problem was from the wood overlay failing first. I had that happen when I tried edge grain wood for overlays. I now use the toughest wood I have for overlays, which is burl wood, this stuff is like iron.

I make my overlays 2 1/4" long and graceful.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/special%20bows/gilsbowtipoverlay.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/special%20bows/gilsbowtipoverlay.jpg.html)

One time I had one fail from what appeared to be a bad glue job by me. One side became unglued and chipped off which put too much strain on the glued side which split it off along with 8" of the back of one limb.

I threw my failure bow into a corner for years but just got around to fixing it with a radical overlay a few months ago. Shoots great.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/001_zpsyky96xl3.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/001_zpsyky96xl3.jpg.html)

Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: DC on March 03, 2016, 06:38:11 pm
All fixed :) The string in the second picture is the string saver.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: John Scifres on March 03, 2016, 08:02:17 pm
Very pretty.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: mwosborn on March 03, 2016, 08:12:01 pm
That one looks nice DC.  I would agree that the walnut gave causing the failure.  Had two (on the same bow) black walnut overlays fail on a FG bow.  I concluded it was a combination of the wood and the wrong angle on groove.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: PatM on March 03, 2016, 09:55:26 pm
Peruvian Walnut really is Walnut and it doesn't have the strength to work as a reliable overlay.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: DC on March 03, 2016, 10:22:33 pm
It's definitely on my do not use list
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: wizardgoat on March 04, 2016, 01:46:12 am
Don, my horn overlays all end up around 1-1 1/2" when done, but I'm a small pin nock kind of guy.
Just my preference.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: chamookman on March 04, 2016, 03:22:55 am
Good job on the fix ! Bob
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: stuckinthemud on March 04, 2016, 04:18:41 am
I use those timbers a fair bit (not for bows!); they are full of silica deposits, have reverse grain, and spiral grain, and are very brittle. These types of timber are incredibly hard to identify and are frequently mis-identified as various types of walnut and of mahogany, especially when being re-cycled. In general they are best worked across the grain and are easily split when force is applied along the grain, like a bow-string might do, but they don't split cleanly, they break out in chunks, exactly like in the photo. They need enough mass to resist the force, so long, deep overlays should be ok but still, I wouldn't risk it.....
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 04, 2016, 08:46:59 am
I made one flintlock stock out of figured walnut, I don't think I want to make another for the reasons stickinthemud mentioned, nightmarish stuff to work.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: Jim Davis on March 04, 2016, 08:42:14 pm
I know it's largely a matter of taste, but I rarely do overlays. Never had either an overlay or a plain tip fail.
Title: Re: Tip failure
Post by: Springbuck on March 10, 2016, 01:59:06 pm
 A little tip I like for overlays, esp with wood like that, all dark and hard to see the grain, is to glue small scrap bits and slats together, and then use them with the slices vertical, like actionwood.  The glues are really strong, glue lines almost invisible, and since the grain of one piece is never exactly matched up to the one next to it, you won't have splitting problems.