Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Nance on April 02, 2016, 08:05:07 am
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Hi everybody,
Today I shot a bamboo backed, triple laminated longbow and it had a huge amount of handshock. It hurt my elbow when it tried to race the arrow to the target. It was a full compass, 43 pound bow.
The draw weight was no issue for me.
Is this a normal occurrence in longbows? It's my dream bow but if it's that much of a beast to shoot, maybe I should change the dream.
My joints are very loose and repeated strain can cause them to swell and ache.
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The bow was poorly designed, poorly made and poorly tillered. Your findings are far from normal. A wood longbow should be as smooth, or more smooth, than a glass bow.
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What Pearlie said, unless you were shooting extremely light arrows.
Pictures?
Del
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No pictures. I did shoot very light arrows. The bow was made by a company that makes warbows. I've heard only good things about them. That's why i tried one of their bows before starting to save up the cash. I must say that I was saddened by the bow's behaviour. I don't remember this from shooting longbows before, but then again my experiences may have been seen through rose coloured glasses. Maybe I didn't notice it then? My elbow was sore after just 6 shots.
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Even very light arrows wont hurt your joints, maybe the bow. The bow isn't well made.
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Sounds like you're either gripping or drawing at the wrong spot or this bow was made by one of the many companies that tries to mass-produce wood bows.
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"warbow" makers often struggle to scale things down and make a shootable lightweight bow.
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My guess is the limbs weren't balanced in strength relative to how you held and drew the bow. This causes the limbs to be unsynchronized upon their return at the shot which causes unnecessary vibration and felt recoil. Several other factors can magnify it, one of them being light weight arrows. Some others are too much mass left in the outer limbs, limbs tillered to bend too much near the handle and too little further outward, low brace height, a tight grip on the handle, etc.
Not always, but sometimes you can move the nock point enough to affect relative limb balance and help with it, especially if you raise the brace height, loosen your grip on the handle and such too. You may even try altering where you're applying the most pressure to the grip... for instance, if you're shooting with the pressure low, on the heal of the hand, try shooting with a higher grip... or vice versa. Sometimes if you come to full draw with a relaxed grip on the handle, you can feel how it wants to balance in the bow hand. Don't fight that. Allow it to balance there, with your fingers wrapped around the grip just tight enough that the bow doesn't fall from you hand at the shot.
It's possible though that the relative limb strength is disproportionate enough that you and that bow may never get along.
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It was a very narrow bow and I'm not used to that. My flatbow has a bigger grip and no hand shock so I just thought the problem was my puny muscles. The draw weight was really easy to handle though. I could have gone up. With the flatbow and my hazel bow, I'm not having any major form issues.
I had some difficulty gripping it properly in the palm of my hand. I didn't grip it really tight or something like that. I used the leather grip and nocking point that were on the bow. As soon as I let the arrow go it went off slightly to the left, the string slapped a welt on my arm through two layers of leather and the shock ran from my hand to my elbow. Like punching a brick wall. After 6 shots my arm felt numb and my elbow ached. Brace height looked normal.
I cant really tell you anything about the bow. I have no pics and usually the bows by this particular bowyer are considered top notch. That's why I was feeling really down about this whole experience. I really like LIKE the elb. I have shot other elb's that didn't have this much recoil, but maybe they were lightweight wannabe elbs and this has been my first real experience.
Thank god I didn't buy it haha. There will be a renaissance fair this month so I will spend most of my time shooting different bows there. A lot of bowyers from the Netherlands and Germany will be selling their wares there and at reasonable prices too.
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Was this bow an ELB style with a full arc of the circle tiller? Sounds typical for that design. Lighter bows really need to have more bend in the middle and outer limbs and more stiffness in the center or they will break your wrist with the shock.
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The bow bent through the handle so that would make it a circle tiller? Like a warbow, but only 43 pounds.
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i suggest getting someone to make a bow for you,,, rather than a mass produced bow,, you have a better chance with someone that makes bows,, in getting one that shoots well with no hand shock,,,, a good bow maker will shoot and hand tune the tiller,,for each bow he makes,, making it smooth to shoot,,
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Ah! You didn't buy it... whew, that's the main thing. :)
I've only really experienced any discomfort with heavy bows and that's generally a jarring of the elbow which heavier arrows always seemed to smooth out. Do you hold the bow upright or tilt it over a bit, maybe tilting (canting) would help? (It helps to avoid locking the left elbow, which may be a contributory factor?) I always cant a bow as I figure the only reason for holding one upright is if you have sights on it and we all know sights are for wusses :laugh:
Del
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I did cant it. I shoot my flatbow canted too.
Yes REAL MEN shoot bare. No training wheels too
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Just another case of " You need to know what you are doing to make a good bow" Just making it bend without breaking is the most basic step. >:D >:D
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Nance, just curious what the actual weight of the arrow was, since you said it was light?
Also whether it seemed to you the bow felt like it stacked or not?
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And you need to know the archer to make a GREAT one... or you and he needs to be really lucky.
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ELB's can have a bit of hand shock with light arrows but it must have been improperly made for it to have that much. I would suspect the outer limbs were way to stiff. Lower draw weight longbows should have the outer limbs working more and this can sometime be a challenge with laminated bows of this draw weight
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One limbs either not made the same (limb taper mainly) or one limb finish's before the other. Bad tillering. only other thing is to big, heavy tips or tips not made the same (string angle).
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Nance, just curious what the actual weight of the arrow was, since you said it was light?
Also whether it seemed to you the bow felt like it stacked or not?
The arrows were full carbon gold tips with 60 grains arrow heads. I use them for my flatbow and brought them to try the longbow instead of risking damage to the stores arrows.
No, I didn't feel stacking. Drawing it felt smooth. Heavier than I'm used to but I shoot a 30# bow and this was 43#.
I know I'm not a great archer as I have been shooting for less than a year. I have been mucking about with anchor points so I lost some in performance. My target scores are back to 3 and up. Before lengthening draw length (and anchor ) it was 5 and up at 18m
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The arrows are probably one of the factors. Modern carbons are stupidly light and made for modern target bows which are chasing ever flatter trajectories and higher arrow speeds.
If you had bolted a load of rods and weights onto the longbow it probably would have felt fine!
Most of an arrows weight is in the shaft, not the point. A 400gn arrow may well have been fine, a modern carbon arrow is almost a dry fire!
Del
(I'll sit here and wait to be contradicted ;) )
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Gold tip shafts so probably about 300 grains plus point weight?
'Full compass' tiller is a bit of marketing tool - as already said a light weight elb has to have an elliptical tiller. Full compass tiller plus the limb timing being off would be the cause of the handshock - if the maker didn't know that forget any 'reputation' that they have.....its misplaced!
If you still want an elb that shoots nicely (at any draw weight!) with zero handshock and good arrowspeed I can make you one, just send me a PM.
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The archery shop has three longbows in stock. The shop is more geared towards recurve and compound bows. The trad ones are extra. The lb's are built by a Dutch bowyer and sold via this store. They have their own store too. Maybe these bows were not as good and they try to sell them via someone else.
Thank you for your generous offer Mike. I've sent you a pm.
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Out of interest was the core lamination tapered? I see some laminated bows that don't have tapered cores and are left too thick at the tips to avoid removing all the belly lamination at the tips.
Del
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I did not really notice any significant taper. But I haven't looked for it either.
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Nance, just curious what the actual weight of the arrow was, since you said it was light?
Also whether it seemed to you the bow felt like it stacked or not?
The arrows were full carbon gold tips with 60 grains arrow heads. I use them for my flatbow and brought them to try the longbow instead of risking damage to the stores arrows.
No, I didn't feel stacking. Drawing it felt smooth. Heavier than I'm used to but I shoot a 30# bow and this was 43#.
I know I'm not a great archer as I have been shooting for less than a year. I have been mucking about with anchor points so I lost some in performance. My target scores are back to 3 and up. Before lengthening draw length (and anchor ) it was 5 and up at 18m
I don't know what length and specific model those gold tip arrows are, but just as a guess I think with the tips they may have been 300-350 grains. total. Not saying the bow wasn't faulty, I bet it was. But using a little heavier arrow might be helpful if you try another bow of heavier weight.
re. accuracy, has anyone checked out your arrows' spine and tip weight for your bow? 60 grains seems quite light unless the arrow is really soft spined for your light weight bow. Also, a real feather fletched traditional arrow of matched spine and weight will probably increase your score -- the lower inside plastic vane tends to kick the arrow on a traditional bow, especially in cold weather when it gets stiff. A plain hard arrow shelf can exaggerate that. This can be demonstrated by shooting off the hand.... or removing that single lower vane for a short distance target.
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a 500 grain arrow will calm the bow down a bit,, 300 is a bit light for a 45# bow,,
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Have you contacted the bowyer about this to see what his take on it is?
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If you look at the old pics of elbs from the 1930's you can see that the lighter they are the more whip tillered they appear. Some of the womens bows in the 30# range start to look very whip tillered, as they get heavier the tiller starts moving inward toward the handle. This is how they compensate for needing a minimum width for a comfortable grip. If you made them all full compass tillers and still kept the grip comfortable and the outer limbs from twisting you would wind up with an overbuilt flatbow.
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I shoot a 30 pound glass laminate flatbow. The arrows are warrior gold tips. Spine 700 with feathers and a 60 grains point. My groups are much tighter with these arrows than with my woodies.
The bowyer blames the arrows so next try I will use heavier ones.
In a few weeks there will be a fair so I'm going to use that day for shooting different bows. I did not buy this longbow. I'm glad that an elb is still a viable option for me.
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Shoot as many different bow that you can and ask each bowyer if they have arrows you can use to test the bow.
What kind of wood arrows are you using...spine, length vs. draw, physical weight, fletching, etc.?
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i think he said he was shooting an arrow that was about 300 grains,,, he is not shooting wood,,
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700 spine with feathers sounds good for the 30 lb bow. You had that covered, then.
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Hi Pat,
My wooden arrows have all snapped of behind the arrow head. I have only two left. Most of the time I shoot at stramit. The length of both carbon and wooden arrows was 28". My draw length is 27",sometimes a little bit more. They all have feather fletchings and the wooden arrows have 100gr points. I think they are pine shafts. Spine matched the bow but not a very well matched set. Hitting the stramit has also influenced the flight paths of the woodies.
I only shoot carbon now.
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Have you attempted making your own wood arrows? Wood bows disserve wood arrows! A well matched bow and wood arrows is a pleasure to shoot and is plenty accurate enough whether you shoot target or hunt. Making your own arrows and learning arrow dynamics can be as addictive as bow building and like bow building can be very time consuming...but very rewarding. 8)
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No not yet. I've planted a hazel bush and am looking for English privet bushes to use as arrow shafts. I have experimented with dyeing feathers but splitting them is rather difficult.
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Nance, you are making it way to difficult, just get some hardwood dowels and make some arrows,, while you are waiting for the other ones to grow,, :)
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Or maybe this http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,28697.0.html
I find these to be almost bulletproof.
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Haha I haven't started on making arrows yet because I have to make other equipment like a spine tester etc. Furthermore I'm a mother of two small children (2 and 4 years old) so time and energy are an issue for me too. I did get a fletching jig and I'm currently collecting tools etc. Arrow making will be a summer endeavour. Until then, my carbon arrows will have to suffice.
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Wow, amazing you get to do any archery at all. Hat's off to you!
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Haha thanks. It just takes some careful planning to make it work. And a healthy dose of realism. I get to shoot one evening a week while my husband (thumbring archer) stays home and vice versa. Our range has two training days so we each get one. On competition days we try to get a sitter or grandpa/grandma but it's not always possible.
We started shooting in june last year and even though we show a lot of progress, it pales in comparison to the archer that started with us who shoots an Olympic recurve. Oh well....
Bow building is kept to the weekends when one of us can keep the kids busy.
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It's great that you both share your archery and bowyery interests. Maybe the kids will be interested in building bows in a few years, too. Good luck to you all!
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"Healthy dose of realism", so important! Props to you and your husband, I am so blessed to have a wife who bow hunts, so much fun to even go to the range and shoot, except when she outshoots me!!