Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Primitive Skills => Topic started by: Zuma on July 05, 2016, 02:40:10 pm
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Any ideas from those going to Pete's welcomed. :)
Tom W gave me some mussel shells from the James River
along with some awesome clay from the river bank.
The clay was dry. I re-hydrated the clay crushed and
roasted the shells. I also crushed some soapstone for
grog too. I plan to bring it all to House Mt Friday night.
Zuma
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grog prep
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Dang Don is there anything you don't do.
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Dang Don is there anything you don't do.
Oh! sure--- make money :'(
Zuma
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You peaked my interest Zuma. I really don't know much about pottery. I'm guessing you make your pot from clay first then press "grog" into clay surface? You should try making $ bet you'd be good at it lol. Bjrogg
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Hey Zuma, probably wont get there until Saturday morning. Tom is bringing some items he made and I have one drying from his clay also. Hope to do a pit firing Saturday evening or Sunday with what folks bring. If Keith is okay with it.
I cooked and crushed some shell and added it to some local clay early this year. Fired the pots and they came out looking great. After about a month or so I noticed some cracking and noticed the shell was getting soft and appeared to be expanding. The pot eventually fell apart from the shell expanding. I believe it started pulling in moisture. I also believe I did not crush the shell enough. It may need to be close to sand in size. The pot that cracked is now pounded and crushed into grog and may add it to the clay this weekend. I will also bring the other one for you to look at. It is still intact but has pieces popping off. Again, worst in wet humid weather. Maybe if you cooked in it regularly it may not happen but I do not know.
One thing I read is after you cook the shells, wash them before crushing. Not sure why unless it is to remove ash and dirt from the surface.
See ya soon!
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I question the use of shells as grog. I think that when you fire it the shell(limestone) would reduce to lime which would just be waiting to suck up water and fall apart. I may be wrong. That's always a possibility.
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DC, I have read that what you think is correct but you must get to temps above what a common ground fire pit reaches. I think if temps get too high it can also change the chemical make-up of shell and it becomes poisonous if used as a cooking pot. Has been a while since I read that.
Also there is a lot of pottery shards along the Ohio River that contain shell particles which were used by Native Americans. So, I am certain it is a viable product if used correctly.
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BJ, I have had pretty good success with abo
pottery. I do use a small electric kill most times.
Some pic.
Lyman, When I first made some pots from raw clay
I had the same thing going on. I didn't have any shell
in the clay. I am pretty sure the popping is caused by
small limestone particles that absorb the moisture.
These are good questions for Keith.
I never built a pot with coils, just morsels like the Iroquois.
Zuma
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Those pots look great and that croc looks like it is laughing.... ;D
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Might be from something that was smoked in him?? :)
I roasted the shells Tom gave me in an iron skillet.
I still have a headache. ??? I'm thinkin pretty toxic?
Zuma
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Lyman, That gator IS laughing, Don just fed him some of those pretty red potato's he dug.
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That's cool Zuma might have to learn more about the clay ABO. What is grog? Is it mixed
In clay to bind it? Some kind of glaze? Whatever you gave that croc I'd like some he look very happy. Lol Bjrogg
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Zuma, those shells are toxic when cooked...I build a small fire outside and dump mine in the fire. Let it cool and dig them out. Wash good and then pound the crap out of them.
Grog is fired pottery that breaks or you drop it and it breaks. Just pound it to small pieces like sand and add to pottery. Since it is already tempered it will help bind the fresh clay and help to stabilize the shrinking while drying and firing. It simply reduces the shrinkage allowing a more even dry and less cracks. You can also add shell, sand, quartz and other material than can be reduced to sand size and is stable during heating.
Sand size is just a reference since you will have varying sizes in the mix.
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Thanks NC very interesting may have to try it sometime
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Hey Zuma, found this article about shells. Explains it better than I can,
I poured the crushed shells in a cast iron pot and placed it on a gas range. Steam quickly began rising from the shells. Hydrogen sulfide could be smelled as it was driven out. Then, as the shells turned white, there was an odd odor. I leaned over to sniff and saw stars. Fortunately, I had about three seconds to cut off the burner, before completely blacking out. I woke up on the kitchen floor about 30 minutes later. This obviously is an experiment that one should not try at home.
Eventually, a friend, who is a chemical engineer, figured out what had happened. Freshwater mussel shells contain chemical impurities that are not present in sea shells, particularly in their mother-of-pearl inner surface. When heated to over 500 degrees those chemicals react to create cyanide gas! Methinks that the young lady at the University of Alabama was either trying to make herself immortal by entering the Guinness Book of World Records through the most anthropology students killed at one time, or she really, really didn’t like her ex-boyfriend, the married professor. I could see her fluttering her lovely Alabama Belle eyes and demurely uttering, “Some more hot, crushed, Black Warrior River, mussel shells my dear?”
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More good info;
Instructions from the Alabama Belle with a death wish, said to fire the shell-tempered pottery to at least a cherry-red temperature and hold it there for two hours. What temperature is cherry red? All pottery turns “red hot” when being fired. I guessed she meant “earthenware temperature” and placed the appropriate temperature cones in my kiln.
The Maya tripod pot fired beautifully. There was not a flaw. The pot pinged like the finest porcelain. It glistened like a Corvette with candy-apple enamel on it. As soon as the pot cooled enough to pull out of the kiln, I photographed it, and sent an email to the tribe’s Mikko (Principal Chief) to brag about the gift that was coming his way.
The next afternoon, I happened to glance at the pot. Hairline cracks were forming that gave it the appearance of raku pottery. I didn’t understand how cracks could form 24 hours after coming out of the kiln, but the pattern made the pot look even more exotic.
While I was cooking breakfast the next morning the pot’s handles fell off. By noon the handles were two piles of ceramic pebbles. Throughout the day, I could hear pop, pop, pop, as more tiny shards exploded from the vessel. By noon of the third day after firing, the beautiful two gallon Maya tripod cooking pot was a pile of polychrome pebbles. It was an artistic disaster.
Further research in a book on Britannic-Roman shell-tempered pottery revealed the source of the disaster. Shell-tempered pottery can only be fired to the point when it just begins to glow red. If it is fired the translucent, orange-red glow of stoneware and porcelain ceramics, the calcite changes into an unstable chemical similar to Portland cement. After it cools, the unstable calcium compound will absorb moisture from the air and revert to hydrated lime. At this point, nothing bonds the clay particles together, so they disintegrate.
There were enough crushed, hydrated freshwater mussel shells to make a big batch of pottery, if I mixed them with limestone sand. The chemical reaction was the same for limestone as shells. The new pieces of pottery were fired to just the right temperature. They came out of the kiln perfectly and did not disintegrate afterward. However, making shell-tempered pottery was not worth the effort and risk.
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Thanks for all the great replies. folks:)
I happened to be in Florida and the gator pipes
seemed apropos. I actually gifted some pipes and
bowls to folks I met down there before they went
snap crackle pop. I never heard about it :laugh:
BJ Lyman has a darn good handle on all the primitive stuff.
I totally recomend playing with the mud It's rewarding.
Hey I just saw the Alabama death post >:D. Glad you found it
nothing about it on a on a shell tempered pottery search.
Open flame temps are around 1650 degrees (ABO Earthenware)
Stoneware around 1850-2000. which I use in the kill. (insurance)
and I fire my spaghetti bowls too. Above 2k you can get porcelain
Grog can also be used for heat transfer. Natural sand is not good as it is round
from erosion or glacial action. That's why they crush rock for grog.
The tiny jagged edges knit together with the clay better.
Zuma
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Oh Tom I almost forgot. ???
No potatoes for you! :P
Zuma
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I had hoped they(the potatoes) were all consumed by now! The ribbed mussel shells I gifted you are a SALT water species. Not sure about the toxic aspect of them vs. fresh water, think Lyman has the correct idea, throw them in the fire and walk away.
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Oh! The ocean may have saved my life :)
Still no potato.
Zuma
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Glad your ok Zuma I was starting to get worried when you said you had headache yet, and then after reading the rest of the story. The outside fire pit sounds like a good idea.
Bjrogg
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Glad your ok Zuma I was starting to get worried when you said you had headache yet, and then after reading the rest of the story. The outside fire pit sounds like a good idea.
Bjrogg
Thanks BJ, That's what I get for trying to
circumvent the ABO way.
Zuma
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Well, the turn out at House Mountain was respectable.
We were part of a very interesting group of mud slingers.
Keith was the master of ceremonies. Picture #1
Nobody seemed to mind handling the clay after Keith's
bare feet. Hmmm
Pic #2
I don't think anyone was facing Mecca??
I think I should correct some firing temps.
The charts say low fired earthenware 1800 f and stoneware at 2300f
porcelain at 2400f
A good ole wood fire at 1600f
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That looks like something my grandsons would really enjoy. I'm sure they'd be laughing the whole time the clay might get spread out a bit and their grandma might not think it was that good of an idea.
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Well, we are all someone's grandson or grandaughter >:D
and like to play in the dirt.
Zuma
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Good observation Zuma, I think most of the people on this site are probably just big kids anyhow with a lot more experience but that same imagination.
Bjrogg
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From what I understand face book
has all the photos. >:(
Some should be AWESOME. :)
Tom and Bill produced fantastic stuff. 8)
And the others did some cool stuff too.
All in all, a wonderful experience.
Zuma
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And that 'tator was good too!
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Here are a few Zuma...
It was a great time and learned a lot. Spending time with friends and like minded folks makes it even greater.
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A few more....
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A point made by Tony Bennett and held by Zuma. Looks like it is in the fire which incidently was firing pots at the time.
A discussion of potters and knappers sharing the same event resulted in; "Pot heads and stoners" 8)
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Just fantastic Lyman. :)Thanks so much for posting the photos. :)
Your descriptions of the events are terrific. :)It was a pleasure to have
spent some time with you and the crew. I hope we do it again.
Zuma
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I managed to salvage a few snaps from
my damaged camera.
Bill built some awesome pots, pipes, etc.
Keith demonstrates a pinch type rim.
Some abo pottery and hardstone.
Zuma
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That looks like a lot of fun and quite an education, great looking pots and nice work. That point in front of the fire looks awesome and very primeval, great picture. 8)
Ruddy.
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Ruddy,I think you would fit in quite well :) Yes the hearth aspect of the firing is fascinatingly different.
That's one aspect. The other was actually hydrating the clay with
the stream water. But more than that was our elfish instructor
Keith. Most of our group met Keith for the first time. As did the
check out clerk at the grocery Keith stopped at on his way to House Mt.
She said "Your not like us are you?" He said "No I am from the forest."
He told us "She was still laughing hysterically as I went through the auto doors."
Keith is from the forest, totally off the grid, but college educated and
a real quality guy. I have know him for about 20 years and love em.
Zuma
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Hey Zuma, probably wont get there until Saturday morning. Tom is bringing some items he made and I have one drying from his clay also. Hope to do a pit firing Saturday evening or Sunday with what folks bring. If Keith is okay with it.
I cooked and crushed some shell and added it to some local clay early this year. Fired the pots and they came out looking great. After about a month or so I noticed some cracking and noticed the shell was getting soft and appeared to be expanding. The pot eventually fell apart from the shell expanding. I believe it started pulling in moisture. I also believe I did not crush the shell enough. It may need to be close to sand in size. The pot that cracked is now pounded and crushed into grog and may add it to the clay this weekend. I will also bring the other one for you to look at. It is still intact but has pieces popping off. Again, worst in wet humid weather. Maybe if you cooked in it regularly it may not happen but I do not know.
One thing I read is after you cook the shells, wash them before crushing. Not sure why unless it is to remove ash and dirt from the surface.
See ya soon!
Calcium carbonate oxidation occurs with heat. Key word here is oxidation. This creates calcium oxide add h2o you have calcium hydroxide. The addition of water increases mass.
A pot with shell will self destruct unless you control this equations. Reduction is the key don't oxidize and the pot will not blow up. How do you do that you might ask...keep the pot buried under a high carbon environment. This will allow the pot to sparkle. I discovered this process after many experiments. Preburn is an other subject altogether that i could explain if you like.
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Thanks Iowa. :)
So are you suggesting the shell
tempered pots would be better off pit fired?
As opposed to the open air log/kiln type firing
in the photos.
Zuma
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Wood burning gives off carbon if I am not mistaken. I am leaning more to a pit fire for shell tempered pots that is filled with and covered with chopped bark or sawdust to both give off a slow and low heat and more carbon. Those pots we filled with pine bark were black inside from the carbon, which is also suppose to help seal and waterproof it for cooking. I think Keith called it shell bloom or something like that. Before Keith's class I had two shell tempered pots that took in moisture from the air about a month after firing and started cracking and pretty much fell apart. All due to the shell swelling. Sand tempered or quartz tempered pots will not have the same nature as shell so a safer bet.
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Thanks Iowa. :)
So are you suggesting the shell
tempered pots would be better off pit fired?
As opposed to the open air log/kiln type firing
in the photos.
Zuma
The powder that he discribed is absorbing mositure from the air and is lime popping. This happens do to expansion. The expansion is a natural continuation of the chemical reaction.
The reduced atmosphere can be achived in other types of firing processes i.e. propane, gas, or wood as you stated. If you would like I can post a picture of a pot that has both example in one pot. Only half of the pot was reduced the other half was oxidized.
Yes you are correct the pit fire will work if you create the environment within the pit correctly.
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Wood burning gives off carbon if I am not mistaken. I am leaning more to a pit fire for shell tempered pots that is filled with and covered with chopped bark or sawdust to both give off a slow and low heat and more carbon. Those pots we filled with pine bark were black inside from the carbon, which is also suppose to help seal and waterproof it for cooking. I think Keith called it shell bloom or something like that. Before Keith's class I had two shell tempered pots that took in moisture from the air about a month after firing and started cracking and pretty much fell apart. All due to the shell swelling. Sand tempered or quartz tempered pots will not have the same nature as shell so a safer bet.
remember the purpose of sand and shell....to improve the quality of secondary clay bodies. Sand historically was used first but its disadvantages were two fold. You had to create a thicker pot and was heavier than shell.
Secondary clays that are SHORT tend to crack because the clay platelets are not uniform. The sand or shell disrubt the movement of cracks caused by this poor quality within the clay.
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Iowa.
If you have the time---
Any and all info on pit firing is totally welcomed. :)
Thanks, Zuma
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those pics with the drying greenware are candy! thanks for these enjoyable Posts!
Iowabow, I also found I Need to fire strictly reductive when limestone is present in the clay.
As to the tempering, sand tends to have rounded edges, wich is not preferrable, it gives much less stability, especially to the wet pot. You can still use it of course for the sake of the reduced work. It's also quite heavy
when you're firing open or in a pit, tempering partly or fully with plant fibers, coal or wood is great. It reduces the ocurrence of pop-offs and cracks big time. Try sawdust, hay or whatnot, but well degraded horse shit is really best. The sun bleached, rain washed kind, that doesn't smell shitty anymore.
Fiber tempering gives you very tension strong clay, great for working slabs or building thin walled.
An organic temper that comes close to grog is crushed nutshells. heavy organic temper will also help to Keep reductive conditions in the clay.
If you want a non-porous surface, or for subsequent polishing, just put on a good layer of think slip on the still wet pot.
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Thanks for your interest and input Jodo.
I need to try some fiber tempering and some slip
application. The shell tempered pot in the other thread
is very light weight. I haven't emersed it in water yet ???
I still have two more to fire and plan to build more.
Zuma
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This should help with understanding reduction and oxidation. The black is reduced (shell shinny) the tan was in a oxidizing enviroment and is now lime popping. This is a really cool example.
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From "I built some stuff to fire"
Here is my one ond only shell tempered pot.
Totally black inside from the reduction.
Rim down and bowl up in the pit.
It seems to be doing ok since it has dried out from soaking.
It weeps in a few spots where the pot is thin and the shells
reach from inside to outside.
Zuma
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Looks like you got it!
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What was the clay?
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Tom W gifted me the clay. He told me it
comes from the lower James River.
Secondary I assume
It has a great consistency and is a gray color
wet.
Zuma
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Yes..it looks good
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Thankyou mates
you band of primitive drugs dealers!!
I'm addicted. Every time I read this forum I get new exciting ideas to overexpand the concept of free time
... and I've never been so happy
Just to let you know I've made my first try at pottery from soil to something that looks like an ugly small pot.
The thing survived firing and hold water without leaking. That's a premise full of hopes.
I'll do again and better and I have tons of questions. I'll made only 2 for now.
Is there a good free (online) reading to learn from? I allready watched many youtube videos
what are the main natural colours (that someone can make himself) that survive firing? If colouring is possible on an open fire.
thankyou for your future answers and for all the wisdom shared in this forum
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Dang for a fist try that pot looks awesome!
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Nice job GlisGlis I'm gonna have to try that sometime
Bjrogg
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Glis
Cool pot from scratch. Yes it can be addictive.
I am not a clay expert but I know you can get natural clay
from dark gray to almost pure white kaolin.
When fired without reduction (no oxygen) most clays turn reddish.
With reduction black seems to be the results.
There are additives but never or seldom used in primitive American
pottery.
Zuma
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Sorry to pollute the original post subject but I think that could be of common interest
made an online search
On project guthemberg site (a collection of copyright free ebooks) there are alot of good pottery free downladable ebooks.
you can read them on the site too without download.
google for project guthemberg then search for this titles:
A Study of Pueblo Pottery as Illustrative of Zuñi Culture Growth. by Cushing
Origin and Development of Form and Ornament in Ceramic Art. by William Henry Holmes
History of Ancient Pottery. Volume 1 (of 2) by H. B. Walters
History of Ancient Pottery. Volume 2 (of 2) by H. B. Walters
Pottery, for Artists, Craftsmen & Teachers by George James Cox
Pottery of the ancient Pueblos. (1886 N 04 / 1882-1883 (pages 257-360)) by Holmes
Ancient Pottery of the Mississippi Valley by William Henry Holmes
Ancient art of the province of Chiriqui, Colombia by William Henry Holmes
Mohave Pottery by Michael J. Harner and A. L. Kroeber
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Absolutly nothing to be sorry about.
Your input is more than welcome.
That's what it's all about imo.
Zuma