Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: Marc St Louis on July 06, 2016, 08:20:49 am
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So, I came across this article yesterday http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-july-5-2016-1.3664782/death-of-tesla-driver-tests-future-of-driverless-car-1.3664803. It was interesting since my wife and I were talking about this very thing several days prior, neither one of us would trust an autopilot car. Would anyone here trust their lives in a car like that?
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Not a chance. I don't trust a soul on the road and those same souls design these cars. 27 years of driving with no tickets and no accidents has to count for something, right? I have had four deer slam into my trucks over the years.
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It's worse than just driverless cars. Daimler Chrysler has been developing driverless big trucks for the past decade. Now that scares me! Josh
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I'm not done!
Just like GPS, its one more skill we are stealing from our future generations. Cant back a car up without a 10" screen on the dash or auto pilot, cant read a paper map to save their aces, have no idea which way is north and so on. It ticks me often watching all these needed skills get washed away by technology that could just as easily be washed away when the power goes out. Then they are left with ZERO skills.
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I think Pearl Drums is right on. I have no problem with, and often enjoy, new technology. The problem is when it's used completely in place of real skills people should have.
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Just another case of "dumbing down" America. My wife and I are avid bicyclists. Can't say exactly how many road miles but a low guess would be 60,000 over the past 40 years. Rode them across this great America in 3 summers (great adventure by the way). Now you want us to trust some moron sitting in a driverless car watching a video as the car travels down the roadway. Didn't work out so great for the guy in Marc's article.
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I'm going to go the other way on this, I can't wait for autopilot to be the norm. It's not the drivers that have never had a ticket or an accident in 40 years that I'm worried about, it's all the nuts out there. This accident with the Tesla is getting too much airplay IMO, firstly the investigation is still ongoing, there is no way of knowing what happened yet, this very well could be the driver at fault, Tesla's autopilot is not full control, it's a driver assist, your hands must remain on the wheel or the car begins to slow and find a place to pull over. For this accident to have happened the driver had to have been doing something outside of what you're supposed to be doing with the Tesla autopilot beta. Luckily the car does record all the data so once the investigation is complete we'll have a better idea what happened and I'm willing to bet it was not the autopilots fault, or at least not solely. I believe semi-autonomous is going to prove an issue and it should be fully autonomous or manual, no in between. The google self driving car has had several small accidents, but in 100% of the cases it was a human hitting the driverless car, which is an argument in favor of more driverless cars not against them, lol. Manual driving will never go away, but for day to day commutes in the city autonomous driving will save hundreds of thousands of lives not to mention the reduction in traffic delays due to idiot drivers, once selfdriving cars reaches a critical mass and they are combined with smart roads to coordinate between the self driving cars the traffic jam will be a thing of the past as will be rampant traffic fatalities.
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Eventually, we will be relying on software to make deeply difficult moral questions. Does my car swerve around a guy braking hard in front of me, forcing a car next to me off the road killing them and saving me, or does it kill me? I know these are questions that are being investegate by (some of) the people making the cars, but its a difficult thought to think about- especially in the time when driverless and standard cars are heavily mingled together on the road.
I really like technology- I have all my life, but the older I get, the more I start thinking about the implications of this stuff. I'm with Pearl on the loss of skills- whos the last 12 year old you met who could read an analog clock?
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Jackson, who is the last store clerk that can give you change without looking at the register. Like I wrote, we are "dumbing down" America.
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http://gizmodo.com/fatal-tesla-crash-proves-full-autonomy-is-the-only-solu-1782923424
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In my view, the "dumbing down" and "driverless vehicle" issues aren't 2 sides of same coin. Worthwhile issues for discussion and personal decision, yes. But one has little/none to do with other.
Chris' examples of skills being lost are compelling. And, to me, go to the question of what should we teach our family members?
Urufu's claims of reduced traffic fatalities/injuries are compelling. And, to me, go to the question of legitimacy of claims.
I could be wrong. After all, am old. ::)
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I made my boys use mirrors when they were learning to drive, they both can back up 50 mph around a turn! Trust me :)
I am an old school thinker and liver and I pass it on to my boys. Yes they are enveloped in technology, and use it, but I am also adamant about real life skills being learned. We need to work on map skills a bit more.
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I like it, then I could take a nap on the way to ElmHall ;) Pappy
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I don't want an automatic driving car unless they can teach it to read and send texts while driving. That way it will blend in with all of the other mindless drivers I'm surrounded by!
Think I'll just remain the old guy that wants very little to do with the technological age. I can read a map, read road signs, AND pay attention to where I'm going .... worked so far.
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I'm thinking along the lines of a spliced bow. I've been shooting them for a couple of years and still get the willies if I think about it too much. Autopilot cars will have to go through the same proving ground. Most big airplanes are mostly autopilot and fortunately they don't plunge out of the sky too often. When they do the fault is split between the computer systems and the pilots.
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I may already have an auto pilot" driving car. When ever my wife and I go anywhere she drives all the way and never touches the wheel.
Keep in mind that the blonde I my auto GPS is never 100% and if they can't get that right I certainly can't trust an auto driver.
I have been around this great America 67 years and now a days it is hard to find a pencil. The basics are being tossed out the window and of course that is after the button is pushed to open it.
Like Pearl Drums: I have taught my kids and grandkids how to drive. I send my 13 year old grandson after my backhoe/ front end loader all the time. He can operate that better than me.
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I'm thinking along the lines of a spliced bow. I've been shooting them for a couple of years and still get the willies if I think about it too much. Autopilot cars will have to go through the same proving ground. Most big airplanes are mostly autopilot and fortunately they don't plunge out of the sky too often. When they do the fault is split between the computer systems and the pilots.
Airplane autopilot is amazingly precise- so much so that there is an example of two airplanes nearly colliding head on- both on auto pilot, heading in opposite directions- at the same altitude. Lots of human mistakes, but man that autopilot had them right on track. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Transportes_A%C3%A9reos_Flight_1907 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Transportes_A%C3%A9reos_Flight_1907)
Jackson, who is the last store clerk that can give you change without looking at the register. Like I wrote, we are "dumbing down" America.
Its difficult to find a store clerk on checkouts, so many self checkouts. I really hate those- taking jobs from clerks and giving them to me... I've got enough hobbies, I don't need to occupy myself as a part time store clerk.
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This autopilot stuff is just another symptom of a cradle to grave nanny society. An ever growing portion of the populace would be perfectly content to be relieved of any decision, obligation or responsibility whatsoever. The fact is too many people have never had to struggle for anything their entire life. They feel there's no need to earn anything, work hard at learning anything or be responsible for their own actions or inaction. Computers, mommy and daddy, government or some other supposedly benevolent entity will happily carry their worthless carcass and only ask a small sacrifice in return such as their liberty. I know I'm off on a tangent here, but I am sick of watching the greatest gift from our forebearers, the gift of freedom being incriminately stripped away because some idiots can't handle the responsibility that is demanded by freedom. Learn how to drive and realize you're not the only one on the road and we won't have to worry about our cars, trucks and school busses getting a virus or having a glitch and killing a whole bunch of people. Rant over. Josh
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Give me a self driving car any day over the 2 hours I sit in traffic Monday to Friday. Especially if it's on a grid so that every car is doing 100 without any idiots changing lanes without looking or driving 60 in the HOV lane.
Having said that, it has to be an all or nothing deal. Either everyone has self driving cars on the interstate or no one does because having both won't work. Too many bad drivers out there. I have never had an at fault accident and I typically have to avoid being in a wreck once a month on the interstate in Nashville. If a computer can fix that, I'm all for it.
What I'd rather see is the driving age in the US increased to 21 like it is in other countries, tougher crackdown on using a phone while driving, etc.
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I have to agree with gundoc, used to be you had to think and do for yourself, people are willing to give that away because somethings hard to do or it is boring. An autocar is ridiculous if you don't want to drive call a cab
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It's less about being too lazy to drive and more about the average of 38,000 deaths each year in the US alone in traffic accidents...
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Autopilot would allow us to get drunk wasted and text while we "ride" home. Of those 38,000 how many involve drinking or texting or both? Cant fix stupid.
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Never mind, I looked it up. Over a third of those deaths are drunk/texting fools. 10,839 drinking deaths (avg), 3,154 texting (avg). 66,000 people have died in the US alone from texting and driving.
Yeah, lets hook some auto pilot up for those people. Great plan.
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Exactly, no more of these idiots killing good people. the AI doesn't get drunk, it doesn't text, it doesn't get distracted by the kids in the back seat or the cute babe crossing the street, it doesn't get tired on a long roadtrip in the middle of the night. I enjoy driving but there are also many times I would love to be able to let the car get me home instead of loading up with a near lethal dose of caffeine to finish that long drive home at 3am so I can be at work the next day...
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Autopilot wont stop either of those from taking place. Drunks will still think THEY can drive better and texters will to. Hypothetically speaking, If say 30% of our population died under these two circumstances in only a few years you would still drive down the road and see texters and cops would still be busy busting drunks. Idiots are idiots. Again, you cant fix stupid.
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I have probably over 600,000 miles logged in my years of driving. Thats's fog, snow, heavy rain, nite time,heavy wind etc....etc..
We now have a society that has no life but sit around and play with their I-phones etc,, and eventually they can drive while texting, heck the computer looks after your driving why not.
I'm glad old age is setting in I dont have to really bother with this tech stuff soon. We know the difference of a simple life years ago....... :)
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I can't imagine who would even dream up somthing like that let alone take it seriously. Ha ha when did the "Geeks" take over?
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[quote author=Urufu_Shinjiro link=topic=57472.msg792150#msg792150 date=146782822 I enjoy driving but there are also many times I would love to be able to let the car get me home instead of loading up with a near lethal dose of caffeine to finish that long drive home at 3am so I can be at work the next day...
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I hate to burst your bubble, but that admission put you squarely in the "idiots" category that you are hanging on texters and drunk drivers. All that caffeine may keep your eyes open, but your mental acuity is no better than the drunks. It's very dangerous and irresponsible to keep driving when you know the only thing keeping you awake is stimulants. Yes, that's a pet peeve of mine. I've pushed hard at times, but when my mental acuity starts slipping, I go to bed. Better to get there late than never. Josh
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I expect the full auto pilot thing to be short lived once the lawsuits start rolling in. "No officer I didn't run that red light and crash into that guy, It was auto pilot."
However, you try and take away my GPS in downtown St. Louis or Austin and we might have a brawl. North, south east and west don't do you no good there.
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Self drive cars are a band aid solution to the real problem which is congestion... In my opinion a much better solution would be mass transit I would love to be able to sell my car and pocket the money that I throw away on insurance, gas and repairs. It would be like getting 5 years of pay raises at once.
Can't ever see myself owning a self drive vehicle but then again it depends where I live in the next decades. It would be pretty interesting if your car dropped you off from work and then went out to be a taxi all day and came back to pick you up with a basket of money for you.
Driving will change but the math of it will change ownership habits drastically before then I imagine.
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It would seem that this subject is a bit contentious.
The AI may not get drunk but maybe the guy programing this AI was drunk at the time :).
Airplanes may have autopilot but they sure don't have to contend with the insanity we quite often have on the roads. I'm quite sure when things get sticky up there the autopilot come off.
From what I can see there are just too many variables in trying to control a vehicle with a computer.
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The auto pilot thing will be a rocky road until it is the majority of vehicles. I fully believe in 20 years there will be no,(except maybe a classic) ownership of cars, when you need one you simply order it and it will show up, take you where you want to be, you can work on the way there, or sleep, or whatever never touching the wheel. The auto insurance industry will be devastated, there will be very few accidents. Technology is increasing at a rate we can't fathom. I think not just the auto industry but the entire world as we know it will be different. Most jobs will disappear, being replaced by robots. Maybe that 90% population reduction we have been hearing about will happen then too.
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And we wonder why north of the Arctic Circle is getting crowded.............If I were single I would take what I own and have saved and leave tomorrow.
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I can't wait for self driving cars. Everybody on this site is Cleary an amazing driver :) But most of society is not. I firmly believe that driver education and training is a joke in canada. In Toronto we have to deal with 8 lanes each way of of parking lot traffic. A few drops of rain or snow and traffic is at a standstill. I believe once the technology is perfected it will be a huge improvement. I'm sure driving skill will still be required for dirt roads, parking lots etc. But I for one can't wait.
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Gundoc, point well taken, that was just an example, I don't actually drive in that state but there have been a few late night trips back from the inlaws or what have you that I would have preferred to sleep on the way home rather than sleep at a rest stop, lol.
I think a lot of the distrust of the self driving cars comes from a lack of knowledge as to how they work. We need to completely ignore the Tesla as it's not a true self driving car and I suspect they'll get in more trouble over naming it Autopilot and setting false expectations than the implementation itself. The Google car is what we need to focus on, a full array of sensors that see road conditions in a way no human ever could, multiple redundant systems, etc. The Google car has self driven over 1.5 million miles in real world conditions and only 12 minor collisions only one of which was the self driving cars fault, the others were either someone else rear ending the car or the Google car was being driven by a person at the time, lol. I know that's a small sample size but even in development testing the self driving car has caused less accidents than the human behind the wheel. The one time it was the Google cars fault what happened is the Google car failed to account for the erratic nature of L.A. buses, lol, the lane the car was in reached some construction and needed to veer a little into the next lane to avoid some sandbags, the google car stopped and waited for an appropriate gap and then slowly pulled out to go around some sandbags failing to realize that an L.A. bus will not slow or stop for anything and the bus clipped the nose of the google car. Google has since corrected this, and it's certainly worth noting that hundreds of human drivers make that same kind of mistake every single day, day in and day out, the Google car made that mistake once and will never make it again. The transition will also not likely be as sketchy as some think because the NTSB has already called for all new vehicles to have connected vehicle technology so that all vehicles in proximity to each other will communicate basic info like speed, wheel position, throttle/brake position etc. to the vehicles around them so vehicles with driver assists like the emergency braking coming in a lot of cars now or the self driving cars will be in communication with non-self driving cars so the instant someone tries to turn the wheel to make that unexpected turn at the intersection or change lanes on the highway, all the cars around it are aware of it before any human could possibly even notice the movement let alone the reaction time delay, the decision making after evaluating the surroundings, and then the time to make an evasive action, in the time it takes for a human to do all this (and each human in the vicinity doing it differently) all the cars with assists or self driving would have all agreed on the correct course of action for every car there and be implementing it already.
As someone with a love for doing things the old way I certainly understand the concern for loss of skills etc., but there's a fine line between saying no one knows how to change their own oil anymore and saying something ridiculous like we should never have invented anti-lock brakes because no one knows how to pump the brakes anymore, you see what I mean?
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The hive mind type stuff they could program into these vehicles will be amazing once perfected. Cars behaving like a flock of birds or schools of fish, instead of a bunch or turtles bumping into each other because of a lane reduction.
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Exactly, that whole thing where you go 5mph and then eventually you reach the front only to find out there is nothing whatsoever holding up traffic, that stuff is entirely human driven, maybe an hour ago someone swerved and everyone slowed down but since then it's just been a five mile stretch of folks slowing down for no reason and then speeding back up when they get to the front, lol.
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Many opinions and my viewpoint is that the way things are going there are things or services out there that want you to depend on them by doing the work for you.It goes against my independent nature,well being and security that I need to depend on anything in this nature talked about here for my well being or livelyhood.I'll fend for myself period.I'm used to paying the consequences for my mistakes.Being accountable.Makes a person a bit more wise in life down the road.Seems like everyone wants to point the finger of blame at someone or something for their mistakes.
In the end it's all about the money honey.They want us to depend on them after we've lost our skills.Speaking in a general way here.
Right now if all computers were taken away it would'nt bother me in the least.I know I can't speak for some who's livelyhood depends on it but mine never did in the first place.
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This makes me think of a conversation my wife and I had with a Mennonite couple a few years ago about farm equipment. They were saying how glad they were that one of the tractor manufacturers were going to start making them without all the electronic gadgets so that when they broke down in the field they would be repairable by the average person
Good god it's hard to write on these portable devices
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Well Marc it actually is amazing how the Amish here are able to repair modern things for people.Engines and equipment etc.Especially for those that have neither the gumption or know how how to do it.Time can be a factor too but really they'd rather throw money at the problem to get it fixed.No problem solving skills again.Everyone is guilty in one way or another of this attitude.Including me.I know a few Amish families well here.The Amish laugh at the English for being rather stupid and inept.The elders really don't think they are missing out on anything in the modern world.Now the young are curious of course.
Actually they've owned the first self driven vehicles long long before these companies did.Did'nt cost them half a fortune to own either.Their horses are so accustomed to getting around and back home that you really don't need to steer them.They will pull right up to the ring halter and stand there and wait.Just a joking example of course but still sometimes I really have to look hard to see if we are improving ourselves any or not.Really I think it's the big companies improving themselves is all that's going on.Trying to make a monopoly of things.That's my conspirocy theory.......lol.
I one finger type and it's not so hard.....lol.The dangers of sitting in a chair at a table typing keep many a chiropractor rich.
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.Really I think it's the big companies improving themselves is all that's going on.Trying to make a monopoly of things.That's my conspirocy theory.......lol.
Not to derail this again but (Derail immenent) I really think there's something to be said for a healthy does of paranoia. Look at how many things are becoming services now- you don't own music, you pay for access to it. Same with movies. Why get someone to pay for something once, when you can make them pay for it again and again! Just imagine not being able to drive your car, because the server its trying to connect to shut down due to a bankruptcy or something. IDK- i've been in a paranoid mindset lately.
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Yes in the large picture of things I feel this way.Not paranoia either.All kinds of pitfalls and problems connected to this auto pilot car thing.A perfect world will not happen.I surely don't have a chrystal ball though either.Everyone can live the way they want to far as I'm concerned.I'm cheap.Convenience and services with a charge have a price and it's up to the person whether he or she wants to pay it which connects my train of thought to these auto pilot cars and the strangle hold for service the big companies will have on it.
Maybe I'm just too old and independent I guess but I don't feel comfortable letting a vehicle get me through the jungle of a city to get me from point A to point B anyway.Been looking out for myself too long to trust someone or something else to do it for me.That goes for all these other services too.Less is more in my case.Self fulfillment [do it yourself]as in making these bows for instance is worth a lot to me.There are things out there out of a person's control but this auto pilot car thing is not one of them for me.At least in my lifetime.The music I listen to is free.
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I remember when they started talking about auto steer for tractors. I couldn't imagine that a tractor could steer better than me or that I would ever want one to if it could, it would take all the fun out of it. in 2005 we got a new planter and it used GPS for record keeping, mapping, variable rate population's but it didn't steer itself. Although it didn't steer itself it gave you kind of like a gun's iron sight you could use to steer by manually. I soon realized this was much more accurate than steering by mechanical marker that was hard to see in dark or dry lumpy ground. I used the GPS for spraying and loved it because you never had a good way of knowing where you sprayed you couldn't see it. in 2007 we bought a used rubber track tractor and upgraded our display to a bit fancier model. the track tractor's all came with built in auto steer you just had to pay for subscription if you had the displays which we had. I had no intention of buying subscription but they gave you 15 hours of free demo. That was more than enough to get me to subscribe. I love it in my tractor, I can watch things so much better ,apply seed and chemicals so much more accurately. Having said all that I see many problems for auto steer cars. It still takes someone to tell it where to go and even my tractors my brothers and hired help are always asking me how to program something. The fields don't have roads that have construction and change where they run. I don't remember ever taking a trip with a GPS device that didn't try to lead me astray because road was changed. As for smart roads unless manufactures are going to build them I don't see it happening our roads, bridges, rail roads complete transportation system needs $$$$$$$$$$$$$ spent that its not getting just to maintain it. I believe Beadman is correct about the $$. and I think they will try to force it on us. Look at Cable, and Satelite TV the Government took analoge tv away now my TV cost $90 and it's all reruns and comercials. They will have a annual subscription fee and charges for map updates and don't forget Taxes. And if you don't pay you'll be getting somebody else to take you where you want to go. I'm not saying it'll never happen just not sure I want it to.
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It takes time to work out a totally new technology. Any of you who are old enough to have learned how to drive on a "standard" transmission, think back to see how long it has taken automatics to replace the old standards. Think about the space shuttle. At first, that thing was landed by men.
As for technology taking away jobs, I remember when cotton pickers came on the market, people in farming communities were complaining that those machines and all such mechanizing would put everybody out of work. The same thing has applied to our switch to robots. Mechanization has greatly enhanced our standard of living. Of course there is a trade-off. We become more and more dependent on each other.
WA
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Any of you who are old enough to have learned how to drive on a "standard" transmission, think back to see how long it has taken automatics to replace the old standards.
WA
Here in the Old World we all learn to drive with standard transmissions. Automatics are rare and somewhat despised. Although slowly they're catching on. But yeah, AI driving is the future eventually it'll be much safer than human operated cars.
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Here's another viewpoint.All kinds of class action law suits along the road to progress and efficiency here and you know who comes out the winner in the end......the lawyers!!!!!!I guess that's called growing pains,but some will experience the pain while others will benefit from the adjustments.
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The upside of auto pilot cars is that some of the inconsiderate driving being done out there might be eliminated somewhat.No turn signals being on before turning etc.
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I borrowed a newer car when my car was in the shop recently, and the loaner had lane assist and adaptive cruise. The lane assist would actually steer against you if you were trying to change lanes without a signal, but if you had your signal on it was fine. It made me realize how often I switch lanes without signaling...
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I see.That was weird I bet.
Wonder if auto pilot will know you can turn right on a red light at a stop light?To keep traffic moving along....ha ha ha ha.
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Beadman, it does, like I said before, I think a lot of the reservations about self driving cars comes from a lack of understanding just how absolutely sophisticated the AI software Google has created really is. If you're curios look up some articles and try and find one that gets really indepth, the cookie cutter fluff articles aren't really going to cover whats really going on, what Google and others are creating is really amazing.
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With the way flatlanders drive around these mountains an autopilot car might be a welcomed sight. ;D
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Urufu......I'm sure you got all the faith in the world in auto pilot.I think this stuff is still quite a ways down the road to being 100% converted here and won't be there in my lifetime but I'm sure it'll be entertaining for those who are.
Pat B.....Yea about as dangerous as those who freak out and can't drive on real snow or ice.Auto pilot will tell them to stay home.....ha ha ha.
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If these things know how to avoid deer, I might be on board for my wifes car... 5 deer in the last 6 years.
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If these things know how to avoid deer, I might be on board for my wifes car... 5 deer in the last 6 years.
And those deer are already self driving!
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Wow. Come season im just gonna follow her around. Her success rate is better than mine!