Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Turtle dragon on August 12, 2016, 01:23:21 am
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Hey guys, I'm about to finally acquire enough sinew to graduate from self bows. I'm wondering: any significant performance issues when comparing primitive glues, like hide or sinew glue, to say for example, titebond 3 for gluing the sinew to the bow?
Thanks in advance for responses.
-turtle dragon
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Modern glues won't give you the contraction you want with sinew and take forever to dry when used with sinew (very thick). Collogen glues have a few very useful properties that you can make use of and are perfectly suited to sinewing.
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Read this....
www.bowyersedge.com/glue.html
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My opinion on it is this:
Sinew + modern glues like TB = a backing that adds protection
Sinew + hide glue = a backing that adds protection and performance
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I use both hide glue and titebond 3 for sinew backing and they both work well. The TB3 is a little less messy!
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I go along with Clint(osage outlaw). I've made 5 or 6 sinew backed bows. On the first 2 I used hide glue on 2 courses and TBIII on the third for water proofing. On the others I used only hide glue with the sinew. There is a difference in performance if you stress the sinew like it should be. I have added a thin coat of TBIII over sinew/hide glue as moisture barrier but other than that if I'm going to sinew back a bow it will be with hide glue.
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The Tite Bond like glues do not give you any shrinkage like a Hide Glue does so there is no performance enhancement.
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That was an awesome glue article DWS
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So I'm using a 60 inch piece of hickory, making a flat bow, its too short for a self bow, so it needs a backing. I want to use hide glue because I don't see the point in using sinew just for protection, i could use rawhide or even fiberglass as a backing if i wanted protection. How do you guys feel about Knox gelatin glue? its basically just collagen glue, any durability/performance issues when it comes to Knox?
Thanks for responses so far. - turtle dragon
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Also I noticed titebond has a hide glue line, has anyone ever used that stuff? what are the ingredients?
-turtle dragon
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Knox will work fine. Liquid hide glues will work but they have additives to keep them liquid and can be slow to dry. Use Knox if you don't have hide glue.
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I have used titebond hide glue a lot in furniture making and had a lot of fresh glue in my shop so when I wanted to make a sinew bow I decided to use it I have made 2 bows with it and have no problems ,when I read TBB I know they had isues ,but after 40 years of using liquid hide glue I immediately knew they were using ex spired hide glue it does have a shelf life like Dean says in his article but it's realy easy to know you got bad glue it will smell like rotten raw chicken that's been in the sun , it will usually take about 3 hrs at room tempreture to start to jell after about 2 days all the retardant will be gone & it cures like normal , I noticed also in TBB composite bow chapter it recommends it so it was confusing to me but I just went with my past exsperience , on the bow I'm working on now I'm going to try the traditional hot pot glue to see if there's much of a difference ,if you do decide to use Titebond hide glue it does have a exasperation date on it so if you get it online check with the supplier about that Good luck with what ever glue you use.
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If I was taking the time to sinew a bow I would use some quality hide glue ......period...............been there done that..
DBar
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fish bladder glue best glue, though i'd probably only use it for hornbows unless i had a ton or something
could combine sinew and hide glue too, good enough for wood bows and most hornbows
you can also reverse hide glue. I don't think I'd like removing expensive/hard earned sinew from a giant glob of TB3 very much.. if you have sinew, you can probably at least afford making some knox glue
what I have wondered is if it could be easier to make horn/wood gluing with some synthetic glue
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I've used knox on several bows with good results. Whatever you use make sure to clean and degrease the back of the bow before putting the sinew down.
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I've used knox on several bows with good results. Whatever you use make sure to clean and degrease the back of the bow before putting the sinew down.
Very good point Clint !!
DBar
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This whole thing was just hashed out a few months ago. And, I think someone posted the Stat's on Knox Gellatin, it was at the top of the list.
Also, if you use TB it is a plastic glue. When it cures, it is sealed. You will get no shrinkage. I've had old bows sinewed with Knox that I have had to re tiller because they gained more weight after 7 or more years.
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I have not seen anyone post performance results of a bow with titebond,, yes it will work,,I have not tried it so do not know much more than I have read,,,, but if someone posted realistic chrono test with a titebond sinew bow, it would be easier to make a comparison,,I have a feeling that if the titebond was easier and would shoot as well,,, we would see alot of sinew bows with titebond,, but that does not seem to be the case,, so I am just guessing that hide glue may have performance advantages that a titebond bow would not,, as mentioned it seems the sinew does not shrink as well,,,,that could have a negative effect on the cast of the bow,,,,for me when I do the extra work to make a sinew bow,,, I like it to have good cast,,, in my mind, better than an average self bow,, I am not just happy with the bow holding together at a longer draw,,, and shooting,, I want it to shoot hard for its draw weight,,,hide glue will do that for sure,, :)
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There is a big difference between Titebond 1,2,3, & Titebond hide glue the hide glue just has a retardant in it to keep it liquid it's still collagen based glue , with this next bow I'm trying the traditional type so I can see the difference , not promoting that glue it's just what I had at the time so it will be interesting to see a comparison between the two.
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I've made more than a dozen sinew backed bows, I've used Knox, store bought hide glue pearls, and home made sinew scrap glue. I've had good results with all. I've done a sizing of TB3, but only after the sinew has cured for 4-6 months.
Sinewing bows takes a lot of time and work, I'd never use it on a bow I was trying to save or up the weight on, or use anything but a glue that should be used with sinew. If I was just looking for some protection and wanted to use TB3, I'd use rawhide