Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kegan on March 01, 2008, 06:06:31 pm
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I've been looking for some good string material. What's everyone's preference? Anybody know of a cheap "alternative" to Dacron or such (my bows pulling about 80#)?
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i got a bow that pulls 45# and i used 3 strans of artificial sinew. i braided them together then hung a weight at the bottom. over nigh it stretched so make it shorter than intended by a good inch. id say. now #80 pounds i aint sure how it would do there? maybe 5 strands or something?
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look online for a fireworks supply dealer. they sell spools of linen that will make excellant string.
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I would have never thought of that. Thanks Jamie ;D!
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Try the leather working linen twine. Its strong stuff.
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Spyder wire fishing line is about the same as FastFlight.
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Spyder wire fishing line is about the same as FastFlight.
What pound test do you recommend for 50-60 pound Bows....and how many strands???
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yankee, I don't know. A friend uses it and I never asked him what weight.
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Yankee, I don't know. A friend uses it and I never asked him what weight.
I have always used B50.....or Linen ....but I would like to try some Spiderwire....I have heard that it doesn't stretch like the B50 does......
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would spider wire saw through your tips?
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Spiderwire is very abrasive. If you use it for a string, make an endless string so you can serve the loops. FF is cheaper, easier to work with, waxed, not braided, better in every regard. I do use Spiderwire for serving for years though, and have been very impressed with it. 14 strand FF and 2 wraps of 40# Spiderwire fits Bohning index nocks. I look for it in the Fall/Winter at Walmart, usually can pick up a $20 spool discounted to $5.
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DCM, I thought they quit making FF ? My friend traded me all his B-50 for the roll of Fastflight I had.
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Mullet the last I bought was labeled FF Plus, same price as old FF. Kinda like "new, improved" Tide washing poiwders I reckon. As an aside, you'd think as improved as them washin' powders have been, you'd only have to wave the box over yer laundry these days. LOL This was last summer at MoJam (The Nocking Pont). Don't honestly know if they quit making it. $22 for 9000' is a good deal, best in the game in my view, if you make as many strings as selfbowyers are liable to. I like linen for staying natural, but it's just not as durable and is more expensive by a good measure. When you get into the designer synthetics you can pay 2 to 3 times the price. Appropriate maybe for target archers, big budget glass bows, but just doesn't seem like it's worth it for an inherently inefficient wooden bow.
I hate to say it but while B50 is cheap, it ain't hardly fit even for even tillering strings in my view. I ain't trying to pick a fight, but what did you dislike about FF, and prefer about B50?
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david i hate fast flight. always have. mainly a noise thing. in my opinion fast flight is loud and for the extra little bit of speed it delivers id prefer the quieter b50. ive always stayed away from it mainly because of its ability to tear a nock up but then i found how loud it was. natural materials first then b50. linen is even quiter than the b50. but like ya said its just not as durable. always have to have a back up string on hand
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"I hate to say it but while B50 is cheap, it ain't hardly fit even for even tillering strings in my view. I ain't trying to pick a fight, but what did you dislike about FF, and prefer about B50?"
Morning, DCM. I like it when a man speaks his mind. :)
I use B-50 largely out of fear.
Jawge
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Just my opinion here, and I'm not looking to pick a fight either but I'll have to disagree about the B-50. It's probably the best string material available today for selfbows. But only if'n you're looking for the best accuracy out of these types of bows (around-the-handle and not center cut). Linen and FF appears to be the best for speed. Personally, I haven't found anything in between and I really really really perfer to hit what I'm shooting at! Sometimes it's best to ask your arrow what it likes ;D!-ART B
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Okay- it seems that B50 has, for me, the qualities that I'm looking for, with linen after which. Cinsidering that- what do you all recomend for serving it? I've got some al thread from Cabela's left, but it's kinda expensive and I wonered if I could get away with something cheaper/easier to come by? Oh yeah- any tips on a Marc St. Louis string?
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I use serving thread. Jawge
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I like B50 myself. I know linen is a natural fiber, but if you buy it on a spool made in a factory, I don't see much difference. If I want a natural string, I'll twist up a groundhog hide or something. Never tried FF. Kegan, the best thing I have found for serving is the little rolls of linen cord that you can get in the craft section at Walmart for a couple bucks-I like it a lot better than regular serving thread.
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I like the .018" crown serving for B-50 that 3-Rivers sells myself. It's a little expensive but makes a great serving. But nylon fishing line to the bow string itself can be used for serving. Just a note here, if I do make any more linen strings I doubt if I will even serve 'em. Just causes 'em to break in that area that muck quicker, or at least that's been my experience.-ART B
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Quietness I'd have to concede, based solely on the fact each of us "hears" differently. Depending upon how old you are, and how much hearing you've lost, this can make a big difference. Evidently I've lost my upper range hearing more so than my lower, at age 46. Least that's what my wife and dotter say. Too many hours spent around loud motors and traffic noise in my youth I suspect. FF strings are smaller diameter, and consequently have a higher note or frequency, and this might account for my preference as much as anything.
In terms of total sound volume when you compare strings of equal mass, or a string/arrow combination of equal mass, I believe the difference is mostly one of harmonics, which can be mitigated with tuning. One would have to concede optimum tuning in each scenario, but FF does offer the advantage of lower overall mass, allowing one to position some of that extra mass in the form of puffs or "silencers" strategically to dampen the natural harmonic. It's a bit of a crap shoot sometimes admittedly depending upon the bow and arrow combo, but I've had better luck with quietness (given my unique perception of quietness) overall using FF, versus B50, particularly on high early draw weight bows.
I can see needing a fatter diameter to avoid splitting self nocks as well, but I generally double serve so that's a wash. Plus I use plastic nocks.
I'd never considered how a string that is heavier, and has more creep and has more stretch could be more accurate. Seems it would be a difficult thing to demonstrate, absent a shooting machine, and even then one must consider proper tuning is assumed in each scenario. No question that changing to a FF string would change the tuning significantly. I personally don't have great form, but I have no problem getting perfect arrow flight, and being able to shoot 50 grains more arrow and 10# more spine from the same bow, changing only the string as the price to pay. The only target archer I know well enough personally to comment on his preference (Jeff Gibson from Arkansas has won a few notable titles I think, lots of regional tournies) swears by, or did, Spiderwire endless strings (ironically). I don't think olympic archers go for higher mass, higher elasticity strings but I honestly don't know.
For the most part I prefer FF because it allows me to run a lower brace height and not interfere with my sleeves, wrist and thumb and because it dampens handshock in any bow significantly. For a tillering string, particularly on longer bows, B50 stretches so much, 2" to 3", I find it difficult to first brace a new, and accordingly extra heavy bow, because I have to bend it so far beyond where I would with a FF string to reach the string groove.
But I humbly concede to anyone's preference, just curious what, besides antecdote, accounts for the preference for heavier, more elastic bow strings.
George I like to challenge dogma, challenge people actually to evaluate or re-evaluate their choices, their options, their opinions. Time spent challenging one's assumptions, mundane things we frequently take for granted, is time well spent in my experience.
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I like both linen and fast flight. Stetch is negligable in both of them, I have gotten to where I won't even shoot a bow with b-50. The stretch and sound just drive me nuts. Steve
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Just curious David, does Mr. Gibson shoot around-the-handle selfbows?
If one can shoot well enough then it's not difficult to see the difference between the two different strings. Or at least not for me. But if the B-50 string isn't well made and pre-stretched to begin with then I can see where you draw your conclusions. A B-50 string with just enough twist in it to hold it's ends together and properly stretched will have very little creep. It only takes about two seconds to get most of the stretch out of a Dacron string when first fitted to the bow (just lay the braced bow across the thighs and press down on the tips). Rest is gone in around 30 min. of brace time and can be served any time after that.
Why does a string with some stretch in (again it goes back to how well a string is made and properly pre-stretched) it make for better accuracy? Some principle as a bow with string follow in it. Gives an arrow a softer and less violent send-off. And that's very important when you have an arrow in paradox (bending). Less important with closer to center-shot bows where less bending is occurring.
But in the end, it all comes down to getting out and and doing a little experimenting with these different materials and then choose what works best for our own needs. -ART B
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Lots of room for personal preference Art, I agree completely.
Yes, Jeff and his dad Jim make and shoot selfbows. In fact they were one of the first I met, first bows outside of my own I'd ever seen, at the Bobby Lofton shoot in MS, circa 1998 I think. He would certainly agree with you on the string follow bows being more accuracy freindly. I recall specifically a bow of his about 45# at his draw, honkin' big outer limbs for my tastes even then and about 1" of string follow. I think his principle problem with stretchy strings was hand shock.
I think it's important to consider the tendancy for the string to follow the arrow, staying in the nock a bit longer, as the string elongates at the end of the power stroke beyond brace height. This is what slaps my thumb, in particular applications, and contributes shock in my view. This would seem counter productive for good repeatability, or accuracy. I would think you'd want the string to stop abruptly, versus staying with the arrow as the string and bow begin to vibrate in recoil at the bottom of the power stroke.
It's easy to form strong opinions, strong preferences and assume any challenge is not well considered or researched.
But in this case I did use B50 for a couple of years. I too prefer strings with just enough twist to hold the loops, and generally loose strands between. I have not found B50 to demonstrate so llittle creep as you describe, finding it would continue to creep for weeks in a selfbow application where I didn't leave the bow braced continuously. Also in cases where I hung the string from the ceiling and suspended 80#, and 120#, respectively in a number of tests with 12, 14, 16 strand strings in periods of 2 hours to overnight. Yes, you can get all the creep out of a well made B50 string, but it definately takes more effort than with a lower stretch material. This is thoroughly tested by the industry, similarly string mass and elasticity, using standardized methods and frankly not a subject worth dispute.
Ultimately when we read about things like this with clear contradiictions, it becomes a question of whether we value that testimony over our own experience. When done repectfully, airing these differences, I think some good can come from shaking up the status quo. But frankly I find little value in a preference, or in particular voicing a preference for a particular material or method in the absence of any objective consideration of the options and alternatives. It's like deciding you don't like a book having never even read the title. Not at all accusing you of this Art, or anyone else in particular. But it happens, all to frequently in my view.
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"George I like to challenge dogma, challenge people actually to evaluate or re-evaluate their choices, their options, their opinions. Time spent challenging one's assumptions, mundane things we frequently take for granted, is time well spent in my experience."
DCM, you don't leave a conservative, status quo, the less change the better kinda guy much wiggle room. LOL. :) Jawge
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Nonsense George. The secret is to simply ignore what I post. ;-)
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I'm still useing B-50, I have five rolls. ;) ;D
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DCM, LOL. I just put on my earphones. That's my ignore mode. It's worked for 36 years. Just don't tell her. :) Jawge
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If a B-50 string slaps your thump David then I can certainly see why you would perfer a fast flight type of string. Nothing wrong with that at all. Don't get me wrong now, but I believe one should do whatever it takes to enjoy shooting these type of bows.
But that B-50 string shouldn't be slapping your thumb. And it doesn't take a 100# weight and days of use to stretch a new B-50 string out. Only seconds! A well made pre-stretched B-50 string should have a crisp arrow release similar to the non-stretch strings but with a softer twang to it. So with that last statement I hope you see how I came by my preference.-ART B
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When I said I didn't like the sound of the b 50 is was just a thing of taste, I was reffering to the sound I get at brace when I plunk the string. I used b 50 and linen both till about two ears ago when I strted using fast flight. I just fell in love with it. As far as sizing the string, I just hook mine to a nail and give it some hard jerks before and durring the final twisting and it seem to never need adjusting after that. I do have to use a slightly shorter string with b 50 and that makes it a bit harder to brace a bow. Steve
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Like Mullet said I have 4 rolls of B-50 so I'll be making a buncha strings before I get any FF to try. ;)
I've made mainly linen strings up until last year when I put a B-50 string on one of my ( gulp) selfbows. I felt like I was drunk at church! :o
Sorta sacreligious to me at first. But my reasons for switching to B-50 were; I had substantial elbow pain developing in my right arm and having to cut selfnocks in arrows was more pain than I wanted to deal with. The dacron allowed me to use (gulp) ??? Plastic nocks and avoid the tediously, painful selfnocks.
The other reason was you can't just pick up an arrow and shoot it with a linen string unless the arrow is selfnocked AND it fits your string size.
I've seen Mims' bows and watched the numbers on the chronograph at Mojam a few years back. I ain't gonna run out and buy some FF but I do respect his point of view, he does ring every bit of performance he can from his bows. I think the FF is just one more way he makes the most of his bows.
I don't understand the necessity for a shorter string when using B-50 though. Do you mean shorter initially to allow it to stretch ? If so its a moot point after its stretched to where its stable right?
Chris
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No Chris, he means shorter after all the creep is out. Creep is elongation of a new string which is permanent. Stretch is elongation of the string only under stress. For long bows with high early weight, the difference in lenght can be remarkable.
That's the whole thing about bracing a new bow, you have to bend the bow to say 8", 9" of brace height to put the loop on, only to later have the string stretch back down to 4" or 5" of brace height.
Have ya'll truly never experienced this?
It's true I regard cast as one of the criteria to assess a bow, but only after others are given. But I'd use FF just for the durability, quietness, decreased hand shock, decreased creep and stretch, even if it cost me a few fps.
Just to be clear, I don't have any problem with using a B50 string, or anybody else using B50. I sent my '07 ABC bow in with a 18 strand B50 string because it was the most quiet config I could manage without string silencers. I just wish folks would give options available to them, whether it be strings, wood species, arrow pass placement, etc. a fair audience before they get set in their ways. But more importantly before they advocate to folks who might follow their lead, again blindly, without questioning the optoins.
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david i totally agree about the short string. ive made some highly reflexed bows where the string had to be twisted something fierce because everytime i braced it the reflex would pul the string to the point it had no brace height. like ive said ive always stayed away from ff because of noise. performance isnt what im concerned with. just a quiet well placed shot. if i was worried about performance i wouldnt carve my bows with rcks ;D
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I've experienced the string stretching a bunch after you initially string the bow.
I don't understand why its a problem to brace it at 8" when in ten minutes or less its gonna be stretched to where you gotta twist up the string. In a well made bow it shouldn't have that much bearing on it, ??? I'd think. Of course none of my bows are what you would call " high early draw weight " bows. If I can get the speed and durability I got on my last bow I consider it a success.
I still tiller like a 9 year old. :'(
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Well said David! And I total agree about options ;D.
I've not experienced that dramatic a brace height loss as you mentioned. Most I get is around 1/2". That's miles from the 4-5" you mentioned. Please let me explain: I take great care to make sure all strands are slack free before I start my first loop. After that loop is made up I place it over an embedded Osage dowel and draw "very taut" before I start my counter-twist (I don't do the bread wrapper thing). After I finish up the second loop I'm left with maybe 5 twist left in the string's body. Twist to suit and it's ready to stretch out with a big ol' screwdriver.
My normal brace height is 5 1/2" so when I initially brace a new string I'm looking for a starting brace of 6". I also use a bow stringer so I'm really not bending the bow that much futher then the push/pull method. OK, after I have the bow braced at 6" I lay the back of the bow across my thighs and press down (word of caution here: to much pressure can break off your nock or cut the string into the string grooves) on the tips (hands under the string). Best I can do here is get the brace height down to around 5 5/8". Thirty min. of setting takes care of the other 1/8" and the string is now ready for serving. And to maintain that brace height over time it may require that little press job over the thighs ( much depends on the amount of twist in the string) after first stringing. -ART B
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I've experienced the amount of stretch David mentions quite often and know full well how much of a pain it is. Heavy weight longbows, recurves and R/D bows of moderately heavy weight will stretch the heck out of a dacron string and quite frankly never mind trying to get a first brace on a warbow with dacron. It will give you cursing fits. Dacron for me is at the bottom of the scale for making strings.
Chris. Have you ever braced a recurve with a dacron string and have the string stretch to the point that the bow will flip flop on you? Not a pleasant situation. You can get this quite often on a bow that you are tillering and the weight is still pretty high. Then you have to content with having to keep tension on the bow and try to get the string off without getting slapped in the face and all this after you have exerted yourself getting the string on in the first place
Dacron is ok when you have a medium weight straight limbed bow that has some string follow, that gives you low string tension at brace. I prefer good linen and linen is also quieter than any synthetic. FF with a good homemade string damper is pretty quiet as well. Dacron makes a loud string.
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Hmmm. I think I'll get one of the little $9 rolls of B-50 from 3 Rivers to test it out. If it doesn't work, I can use it on lighter bows. Seeing as how I'm using paracord though, it should still be an improvement. We'll see ;).
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I like linen. Its quiet as Marc says. Like ta use it for huntin' when I am not using sinew er vegetable fiber strings........bob
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That B-50 will work just fine for you Kegan. My son's Byron Ferguson 95# longbow came with a Dacron string. -ART B
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Yeah Marc I had that problem not two weeks ago. A hik backed Ipe LB. Bout passed out getting the string off that dern thing. I'm happy to hear that I'm not the only one thats braced sooner than was good for me! ;D
So FF has no stretch huh?
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"So FF has no stretch huh?"
Eeyup.
Sometimes I feel this game is like wading thru five acres of brier patch nekked just to get a pint of blackberrys.... fer somebody else's pie.
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I tiller with old strings that are already broken in. I do experience a bit of stretch but not a great degree. On a new string there is some stretch involved but it comes out pretty quickly. My finished strings have 3 twists per inch. Anymore than that adversely affects cast. My bows are 50-55# flatbows which sometimes keep and hold reflex but not usually. My strings have 14 strands. Jawge
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now how do you o about making a string out of 1/4 B-50?
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I always have to serve the ends of B-50 because it always wants to unwind. I think B-50 was meant more for Enless loop strings, Yes? :)
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An overhand knot takes about a secod to tie and fixes the unraveling thing. :)
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for using B-50 how to you make or tie the loops at the ends of the string?
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I braid a Flemish loop in one end and tie the other end to the bow with a timber hitch.
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LOST?! ??? ;D flemish, sorta. timber hitch?
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The timber hitch or bowyer's knot is traditionally used to tie the bottom end of the string off.
(http://clipart.usscouts.org/library/Scouting_Skills_and_Activities/knots/timber_hitch.gif)
This link will show you how to braid the loop (you don't need the jig, just don't have the strands all the same length so that the ends line up. You want the ends to be staggered):
http://www.geocities.com/salampsio/flemish1.htm (http://www.geocities.com/salampsio/flemish1.htm)
You don't need the second loop, either-the timber hitch works great and is adjustable.
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thanks a lot sir. :)
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:)yes thanks,Hillbilly