Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: jaxenro on September 29, 2016, 08:55:02 pm
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Hi
Been looking for information on Victorian era longbows which I understand differ from medieval or traditional ELB in several ways (and I am probably missing some)
1. Different belly woods used including lemonwood, oak, yew, osage, and ???
2. Typically lighter weight draws 50-60 for men, 30-40 for women
3. Often backed with various materials among them canvas, silk, linen, rawhide, ?wood?, and ???
4. Typically had a non working or non bending handle
5. Usually had a leather, velvet, or cord grip of some type often with an integral arrow rest
I'm not sure how true all of those are but it's the start I have.
Can anyone point me towards a good book, preferably written during the era, with more details? I have been poking around and have found some are reprinted online so pdf's would be perfect also
thanks
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Something else you will notice on those bows is that they are all about the same width. The tiller shape usually reflects the approc draw weight. The very light weight bows are whip tillered while the 50# to 60# bows are more full compass.
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Most of the true Victorian era( as opposed to similar designs in the 20thC, made up until the fibreglass era), were either unbacked lancewood, or lemonwood, some of yew either self or backed with yew sapwood, hickory, or bamboo (tonkin cane, not moso or madake).
A lot of new world tropical hardwoods were employed for bellywood due to their ability to resist compression, and chrysalling.
Bulletwood/beefwood, Ipe/Bethabara, snakewood, rubywood, were employed is this manner. A bow from these materials could be made much narrower than yew or lemonwood, less than 1" wide for a 60lb bow, sometimes as narrow as 3/4 of an inch, depending upon the type of wood.
Of the antique Victorian bows that I have personally seen, none of them have obvious Buchanan dips like most of the 20thC bows I have seen, or read about in books by Duff, or Bickerstaffe. I couldn't tell you how much bend there is in the handle, I'd say the range goes from full compass to stiff handle, depending upon the bowyer, and how early the bow was made in their career. Stiffer handles became more popular really only late in the 19thC, more so in the 20thC, after the Victorian era. Even then a stiff handle can be done without obvious dips, by leaving more wood on the belly, either side of the grip. I haven't seen a Buchanan dip on a bow made before the 20thC, even one made by Buchanan or his protoge'/successors. That doesn't mean they weren't made, I just haven't seen any.
The Victorian longbow never had a true arrow rest. Sometimes the top of the handle wrapping might be thick enough to act as a rest. They often had inlaid arrow passes, mainly mother of pearl, or ocasionally metal like brass, gold or silver. They always had horn nocks, usually cow, or water buffalo, vary rarely some other exotic animal, or cast metal.
I have seen what Badger is talking about, same width, different tillershape, for different draw weights. I usually associate them with the 20thC lemonwood high production bows, from bowyers like Stemmler.
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Start off at 1 inch wide through the center 12 inch section, taper to 3/4 12 inches from the nocks then into 1/2 nocks. Narrow as you go and feel what the wood can take. Elliptical tiller.
Hickory backings and pretty much any dense tropical for the belly/cores.
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I used to to be very disparaging of Victorian bows and bowyers until I went to a private bow museum. It opened my eyes to all sorts of possibilities and I was in awe of their skill.
The bows were slim, elegant and the nocks were tiny. I was looking at one Yew bow then I realised... no, it's not self Yew, it's Yew belly and Yew back but it's not one bit of wood! I saw belly patches, all sorts of stuff. Opened my eyes and humbled me.
Taught me a lesson, sometimes it;' best to shut the mouth and open the eyes and the ears.
Del
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What did you not like about them originally? Was it just because you considered anything less than self yew selling out?
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I used to collect Victorian era dirk knives made in Sheffield the quality is something you see only rarely today. There was a time from say 1850 to 1914 where English craftsmanship in so many areas achieved a level of functional elegance combined with quality of materials and construction that has rarely been surpassed
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I saw its some sort of bickering among the bowyers about these victorian longbows. There are some who literally despise this era of archery. Like this "lawn archery" is some sort of a bad thing. Wow, people in 19th century (although upper class) wanted to have fun with bows, just like we do and that is a crime apparently!
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What did you not like about them originally? Was it just because you considered anything less than self yew selling out?
Yeah, a bit of that, but I s'pose I thought them fussy and under weight ladies toys. After all some archery in those days was just and excuse for men and women to be able to mingle.
There's a TV series "Victoria" with an archery scene in it. V glamorous actress in full vitorian costume being coached/flirted with by a prince... how romantic!
Del
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just and excuse for men and women to be able to mingle.
I can name an awful lot of activities that fall into that category ;D ;D
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What did you not like about them originally? Was it just because you considered anything less than self yew selling out?
Yeah, a bit of that, but I s'pose I thought them fussy and under weight ladies toys. After all some archery in those days was just and excuse for men and women to be able to mingle.
There's a TV series "Victoria" with an archery scene in it. V glamorous actress in full vitorian costume being coached/flirted with by a prince... how romantic!
Del
Well, I think that "mingling" with women can be fun.. ;)
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I used to collect Victorian era dirk knives made in Sheffield the quality is something you see only rarely today. There was a time from say 1850 to 1914 where English craftsmanship in so many areas achieved a level of functional elegance combined with quality of materials and construction that has rarely been surpassed
the comment on the craftsmanship made me think of the time i went to see the King Tut exhibit here... there was a golden dagger that was actually on his mummy...
the workmanship was incredible... absolutely stunning... i stood staring for a good 20mins before my wife finally drug me away...
i was born 100years too late...
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The Tut dagger is amazing. There was a write up in blade magazine about an exact replica made and how difficult it was. I remember just forming the gold beads took him a while as the torch slumber blow them off the bench if he wasn't careful and he had to devise a correct way to fasten them. Forging the gold blade was a story in itself. It was a famous custom maker Buster Warenski and was selling near one million at one point
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The Tut dagger is amazing. There was a write up in blade magazine about an exact replica made and how difficult it was. I remember just forming the gold beads took him a while as the torch slumber blow them off the bench if he wasn't careful and he had to devise a correct way to fasten them. Forging the gold blade was a story in itself. It was a famous custom maker Buster Warenski and was selling near one million at one point
amazing...
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So some people scoffed at the Victorian longbows. We still have that attitude cropping up today when people receive a board bow in a bow exchange. We have even codified a rule for proper scoffing when we say "effing-glass" on this forum. Mostly, we are passing it off as a joking manner. But still, it is something we are all guilty of engaging in this behavior.
Mostly, I am pointing the finger at myself. I really need to knock that stuff off and just concentrate on the positive stuff.
Whatever you choose to make, jaxenro, post away so we can all enjoy it!
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A couple of years ago I made up several what I called Victorian style longbows. They were very nice shooters. I used white oak back ipe about 1" wide on all of them. I did have small dips, my fade out were about 1" on each side of the handle. They went from 55# to 30# and the lighter they were the more elliptical the tiller. I think they were all about 67" long.
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A couple of years ago I made up several what I called Victorian style longbows. They were very nice shooters. I used white oak back ipe about 1" wide on all of them. I did have small dips, my fade out were about 1" on each side of the handle. They went from 55# to 30# and the lighter they were the more elliptical the tiller. I think they were all about 67" long.
Pics or it didn't happen! >:D
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I've made two over the years and I wish I still had one. Those were smooth, comfortable shooting bows. And, I'd rather mingle with women then chase arrows.
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A couple of years ago I made up several what I called Victorian style longbows. They were very nice shooters. I used white oak back ipe about 1" wide on all of them. I did have small dips, my fade out were about 1" on each side of the handle. They went from 55# to 30# and the lighter they were the more elliptical the tiller. I think they were all about 67" long.
Pics or it didn't happen! >:D They had a home when I made them.
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Came across this in Archery Rules, by Charles F. A. Hinrichs one of the many free books available as PDF online - what to wear when shooting at the club
For gentlemen:
a green cloth coat, with gilt buttons having the club device upon them, and a cap of the same colored cloth, with a covered peak. (Some of these coats came with a leather sleeve insert negating the need to wear an arm guard)
For ladies:
a green jacket over a white skirt, with hat (with narrow brim) and green and white feather; or the following is a very pretty style for a lady's archery costume: a white clear muslin skirt with a deep hem, worn over either a white silk or cambric muslin slip; Russian bodice of white alpaca, trimmed with black lace insertion or braided with black; sleeves tight to the wrist, as that prevents any awkward catching by the string; a pointed black velvet band and sash, trimmed with black lace. Over the left shoulder, and fastened with a knot under the right arm at the level of the waist, a broad green sash, made of silk hemmed at the ends. This sash is gathered into folds and fastened on the left shoulder by a brooch of gold or silver, according to the taste of the wearer, bearing the badge of the club. Hat of white straw, bound with black velvet and trimmed with green and white feathers.
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Don't want to hijack the thread, but Del I'm guessing that private bow museum was access by invitation? Any other places I could get to see a decent display of Victorian longbows?
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Don't want to hijack the thread, but Del I'm guessing that private bow museum was access by invitation? Any other places I could get to see a decent display of Victorian longbows?
Yeah, I was invited by someone in the Medieval Society, they take a group round every few years. It was so remote, we had to all meet in a pub and then drive down narrow country lanes somewhere in Kent playing follow the leader to get to it. They even had a rule of only photo's for personal use, and it was, put on the white cotton gloves! I was on my bestest behaviour :laugh:
It was a brilliant place, everything from flight bows, popinjay bows, abo' stuff, big crossbows, steel bows, composites, paddle bows, Indian and Asian composite bows.
Del
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That sounds like a lot of fun! Thinking of getting in touch with Manchester University Museum - they seem to have a splendid collection, but I suspect most of it is out of sight and I don't fancy going all the way up there to look at 3 or 4 display cases, especially since I'm really keen to get my mits on some early Saxon composite crossbows..............
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That sounds like a lot of fun! Thinking of getting in touch with Manchester University Museum - they seem to have a splendid collection, but I suspect most of it is out of sight and I don't fancy going all the way up there to look at 3 or 4 display cases, especially since I'm really keen to get my mits on some early Saxon composite crossbows..............
Yeah, they even made us tea and biscuits... very civilised doncha know.
Del
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Did they also supply a highly absorbant and tastefully tailored bib to catch the drool as you stared at the lovely pieces of history in your white gloved hands?