Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Seahunter on October 05, 2016, 12:48:02 am
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Is it possible for an Osage ring to be different colors at different parts of the stave? Does this shave look like the back ring has been violated? There is a dark spot on this stave that I am wondering about. It didn't feel like I was cutting through it, but it looks like I may have. Looking at the side of the stave it looks like the dark colored ring changes color.
If the consensus is that the ring has been violated could the bow be backed with sinew?
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r95/freed1ve/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20161003_065004618.jpg) (http://s142.photobucket.com/user/freed1ve/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20161003_065004618.jpg.html)
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r95/freed1ve/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20161003_065106676.jpg) (http://s142.photobucket.com/user/freed1ve/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20161003_065106676.jpg.html)
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Yes osage can have red streaks through it but it's hard to tell from that pic if you cut through, a closer pic would help. It does look like you may have cut through from that pic but need to see closer.
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It is hard to tell from your pictures but like has been said osage can have color streaks pop up anywhere. Take your stave out in the sunlight and look at it from all angles, any early wood showing through your back will be readily apparent.
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Can you take a closer picture of that streak on the side of the limb? It might be discoloration from a wind check. Or it could be just a dark streak. Osage can have dark and red streaks like that.
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If you cut trough the growth ring, you should see that early wood that's crumbly. If you don't see that at the edge of the dark and light wood area, you should be good. A closer pic would help tho if you aren't sure.
ERIC
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Like the other guys have said colour in a ring is not always a good indicator to tell if you are folllowing a single ring. You can get rings that are part sapwood, part heartwood, or have localised stains that can trick you.
If you are worried about having enough thickness if you took off another ring I wouldn't be too worried. I can't tell if you have gone through a ring from those pictures, follow Eric's advise to give you a better idea. If you have actually gone through a ring, the pattern suggests that its spread out over a long, smooth area, enough to distribute any stress. A localised gash that goes across the stave then I would definitely take off another ring or back it.
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That looks just like the dark stains from the bore holes and an opened-up chamber of those flat-headed wood grubs. There was a time when I didn't recognize the signs and ignored them, as dark anomalies in Osage, but then I felled a tree with heavy damage and realized what I was looking at. And while Osage can have dark rings in it, that dark stripe on the edge of the bow can be the tree ring reacting downstream from the grub's injury to the tree.
I decided to waste my time and follow the trails of damage, trying to cut-out the damaged areas until I was satisfied that I'd chased the holes to dead ends. -And several times, that ended with finding the live grub - still alive and eating, after the log had been seasoning in a hot shed for 9 months. But I would slowly chisel out the bore holes (running inward from bark to heart, just like how a nail is driven into a tree), then I found they'd stop at a tasty ring they liked and stay in it, eating lengthwise with the trunk. Then I'd often find the grub in an eaten-out chamber at the end of that tunnel. And that chamber will stain the ring below and the rind above with that dark brownish-red cloud. Then you see that stain streaking out downstream for a bit. NOT saying that's what you've got there - just had to throw it out.
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Thanks for the replies. Here is a close up of the dark area
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r95/freed1ve/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20161006_093429942_HDR.jpg) (http://s142.photobucket.com/user/freed1ve/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20161006_093429942_HDR.jpg.html)
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Looks good to me ...except to be picky, I don't understand the dent on the left hand side............wet that area and the dent might rise and with a little sandpaper it will vanish. proceed on!...........
DBar
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You are definitely good to go. That just looks like some sort of discoloration. Most non white woods have this occur in some form or another. Get to knocking that bow out, and we need to see progress pics.
Eric
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That discoloration might be the outer edge of a hidden flaw. Watch it closely.
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What I would be more concerned with are those pin knots to the right side. You have to be very careful not to violate the ring at the peaks of those pins. They look to be as flat as the area around them, which indicates to me that you may have cut through the very top of them.
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My first attempt to build a pyramid black locust bow was also with heartwood with discolorations. It broke at 27" with perfect tiller up to that point. These spots in my case were actually beginnings of rot, even though BL is extremely rot resistant (but not rot proof).
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What I would be more concerned with are those pin knots to the right side. You have to be very careful not to violate the ring at the peaks of those pins. They look to be as flat as the area around them, which indicates to me that you may have cut through the very top of them.
I did cut through them and I was afraid of that. Does this mean the bow will likely fail. This is the first time I have tried to chase a ring btw.
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Just leave a little extra limb width at those pins, you will be fine.
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What I would be more concerned with are those pin knots to the right side. You have to be very careful not to violate the ring at the peaks of those pins. They look to be as flat as the area around them, which indicates to me that you may have cut through the very top of them.
Agreed.
When you see a pin knot mark it and don't work over that area with a scraper like you would on the rest of the limb. Be very careful and keep them raised.
Chances are they will be ok BUT the grain is violated there. Only a little but....
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I never have a problem with small pin violation failing on the back of a bow or on the edges for that matter. A small violation does not mean you are looking at an impending failure, if your violated pins were much larger you may have a problem but the tiny ones, naw. Soak them with a little superglue before you apply your final finish for a little security. Myself, I don't worry about the little ones but do try to follow the grain over them if at all possible.
I just stepped outside and took this picture of a cluster of small pins on the edge of my #1 bow, there are 4 more pin clusters on the edges of the same bow at different points on the limbs. Over a year of heavy shooting the bow has not caused any problems to surface.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/pin%20violations%20001_zpsmb6i1udv.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/pin%20violations%20001_zpsmb6i1udv.jpg.html)
Perhaps Alabama osage is a little tougher than most but I doubt it. I have a lot of osage bows under my belt (100 or more osage only) and this has been my finding.
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I agree with above, and it looks pretty good, it would not hurt a thing to put a thin rawhide back on, and then the pins would really not be an issue,, but as stated ,, if you dont push the limit of the design, the pins should be ok,, you could do just a smal rawhide or sinew :) wrap on the pins,, and not have to back the whole bow,,
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If I had to deal with those pin knots I would put some thin superglue on them and then lightly sand it smooth after it dried. Then I would continue making the bow like they weren't even there.
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I respect Outlaw, he makes a nice bow, but I find his advice to make it as if the pins weren't there to add more risk into the equation.
Admittedly I have seen many bows where this has been done and the bowyer manages to get away with having an uncompensated flaw.
When a bowyer is learning, or making a narrow bow, or one with a heavy draw weight, or performs near the staves limits for its design, these small flaws that have been left unattended are usually where you start to get problems, or even an outright break. This can easily be avoided by leaving a little extra wood in the width of the limb to compensate for the pins.
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Staves limits the design is a real issue....just starting out building bows it's hard to tell what the "limits" of the stave is.....
Pending the type of wood the design/style of bow...... it all depends. Some try to make a bow from a stave that just can't handle what the builder has intended it to be ... I've heard it from some of the good bowyers here many times say " the stave will tell you what the bow will be". It also reminds me of what an old football coach once said (not about me!) you can't make chicken salad out of chicken $hit you've got to have a little chicken to start with. :) ;) Experience is gold......
DBar
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Hamish, my statement was based on my experience with pin knots. I don't leave extra width or islands of rings around them. I scrape around them carefully and then sand them smooth. My go to bow for the last 3 years has knots on it like that and on the edge like the one Eric posted. What works for me may not work for everyone else. That's why when I share advice I try to say something like, "if it were mine, I would do this". There is always more than one way to handle a problem. I'm just offering my view. I would still be more worried about that discoloration hiding an internal flaw than the pin knots.
:)
On a side note, from my experiment at the Classic this year I think minor ring violations aren't near as fatal as most people think as long as they are sanded really smooth and coated in superglue. I want to do some more testing to see what happens on a better quality piece of wood before I will know for sure.
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This bow was bending nice and shooting fast.
I posted this stave a while back asking about pin knots.
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That's a bummer. I don't see anything wrong with how you worked the pin knots though.
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Ditto Outlaw and Eric. Osage pin knots are typically a non issue for me, back or edge. I've made many that I cut clean thru them when drawing out the side taper and never an ill effect with it.