Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Spotted Dog on October 06, 2016, 04:26:13 pm
-
Ok. How many of US (me to) really make a PRIMITIVE BOW ? I have done one kind of close.
The only tool I used was an antique corn knife. From start to finish. A mulberry long bow.
I want to some time in the future make a 100% primitive plains bow. Just what wood will
fit this process ?
Dog
-
This is the question that will cause a argument or two. A primitive bow with "Primitive" tools? First we need to define primitive. The decide what is a primitive bow.
-
On back packing trip I bent a green stick and tied chalk line between it and killed a chipmunk? Got the pics to prove it :)
-
I was just reading a book on primitive native bows when I saw your post & thought about your question and thought any of the white woods ,osage,BL or any other wood they used would would be good for stone & bone tools after all that's pretty much what they used I have never used primitive tools to make a bow but if I had a lot of time on my hands I would give it a go
-
Everyone seems to have their own opinion as to what is considered primitive. Time, region, tools, materials, techniques, etc.
-
These guys here give me a hard time all the time about that......lol.To theoretically be able to call it primitive you have to cut it down to begin with,with a primitive tool they say.NO chain saws!!!!
Aaron and Jo Jo's points have to be considered.How about a question like what's the most primitive method made bow by people on here.That seems to be what your asking anyway.
I'll jump in...The first 18 I made were with a hatchet/draw knife/pocket knife/farriers file/and sand paper.Big game hunting weight bows.That's as primitive as I've gotten.That was within 1 year too.
Any type good bow wood I feel can be made into any type of bow with primitive tools.
You got me beat I'd say Dog.Your method was more primitive.
-
Nah you gotta start from scratch. No modern clothes shoes or food.
Oh wait all the wood is tainted with man-made isotopes from nuclear tests. No bow can be truly primitive anymore....
-
Well the song says it all
No phone, no lights, no motor car,
Not a single luxury.
Like Robinson Crusoe, It's primitive as can be.
Now Robinson had all the hand tools from the ships carpenter so there it is.
A fact is a fact ;)
-
This old debate again... Everyone has their own idea of primitive some say all stone tools yet otzi had a bronze axe in his quiver and iron tiped arrows so is a metal axe going to be primitive? Not for everyone i would imagine. Jaimie that used to post built one with all stone tools several years back. I like my bandsaw and so does my wrists and shoulders😋 I have built a few with minimal tools, hatchet, drawknife, a knife for a scraper and a roundfile but sure don't feel the need to do that again
-
To me 'primitive' means stone age tools and methods. I started one from scratch. Two rocks. Used one to percussion flake a hand axe out of the other, went out and cut down a 3" hickory tree... should have worn gloves or some type of leather pad... or put the axe head in a handle.. I got bloody. But I got it. Chopped a short piece off the end for a hammer, let it sit until a drying checked opened a bit and then split it there with shed deer antlers for wedges... which worked very well. Knapped scrappers and stone 'chisels' for lack of a better term. Yeah it was work and wood removal was slower than I was used to, but it wasn't as bad as you might think. The key is to use a small tree. I could have went smaller. I got it floor tillered and then quit because I had to pack up and move. I still have it here somewhere. I'll finish it one of these days. I think I could be shooting it in a couple days.... well, got the string to make too. That will take a little doin.
-
My two (possibly annoyingly academic) cents:
The term "primitive" is a political problem as much as a practical one. The idea that a particular way of doing things is "primitive" while another is "civilized/sophisticated/advanced" is totally subjective, and historically based on colonial ideas of cultural hierarchy. At times, "primitiveness" was considered a sign of cultural or even biological inferiority, while at other times it was romanticized by Western philosophers, writers, artists, etc. The sum total effect was to say that "primitive" people (typically indigenous non-European people) were somehow simpler, more childlike, less intelligent, or just "lesser." The term tends to hang on today because we (mostly non-indigenous Westerners like myself) still find something quaint about it, which comes with all kinds of problematic baggage for indigenous peoples.
As far as the question of making a truly "primitive" bow, the primitive/not-primitive pairing is a false dichotomy. There's no such thing as the "true primitive" bow. Whether something is "primitive" or not isn't actually and either/or question, but a matter of degrees, or (if you want to reject the colonialist perspective altogether) a matter of style.
-
I didn't think old world to new world. The old world was further advanced than here. Lots of good thoughts here. I want to do a North American
primitive stone tooled bow. May not be able to do it , but want to. Got some stone and bone tools made. Need to make a maul. This has been on my mind a
long time.
Dog
-
Ok. In the F&I group I was in for years till we broke up. We had a quest. To be as correct as possible so if
by some reason we got sucked back into 1757 we would not stick out. I am anything but academic with words.
The idea of the term primitive is not inferior. If any of us had to live like that now most would die. Ancient people
had a skill set above ours even now. The thought of being able to make a bow, arrows, brain tan clothing with only
tools that those people is a thing to do my best at achieving. To try to understand the hardship and work it took.
To me I will be a better man just by trying.
-
That's a good way of approaching it. I feel like another term like "traditional," "precolonial," or something more specific like a tribal designation or era-specific term (e.g., "Stone Age") that doesn't have the same historical-political baggage would communicate the idea better than "primitive," but terminology aside I like the way you characterize the underlying idea.
(p.s., I would totally be one of the dead ones. Terrible eyesight, totally out of shape, can't shoot a bow for crap.)
-
Yep break out the pop corn, this comes up from time to time, and I guess it boils down to what each person thinks it is. To me it's stone/wood or bone tools but their is something to be said for old metal tools/especially bronze/brass or copper. As for me I have made 1 with stone tools, a Hickory sapling and that will probably be the last unless conditions force me into it. ;) I like my band saw/belt sander and metal tools. I don't call my bows Primitive bows, I call them home made wood bows. The same thing come up with the use of the word now days [Traditional] what exactly is that ??? It is my son and my Tradition to hunt on Thanksgiving morning, that is only happened in the last 20 years or so, so I guess you could say we are hunting Traditional. By the way Pearl was that a Primitive Chalk line you used. ;) ;D ;D ;D Good endeavor Dog, it is fun and quite an accomplishment to do it. In our fast pace world in get it done as quick and easy as you can it is tough to slow down, I think in one sense it was easier for them because they were using the highest technology they had at the time. They thought Man these stone tools are the bomb. ;) ;D ;D plus they had been taught the skills since birth. ;) :) I think as was said before Jammie that use to be on here a lot and Jawgs built a few with stone only, if fact I think Jawgs wrote a story for PA about it if I am not mistaken. :-\ Just my 2 cents.
Pappy
-
I like to think if a bow could have been reasonably made pre machine age it is primitive.
-
I agree with Pappy.
The tool one uses does affect design.
For example, a truly flat bellied bow is a product of the machine age..
Hand tools of any material will usually produce a slightly rounded belly because that's how they are the most effective.
Jawge
-
I've only made a "true" primitive arrow with stone tools and methods. Haven't attempted a bow...yet. I do make modern, primitive bows with simple modern tools and simple design but that's about as primitive as I have gotten. It may even be impossible for modern man to build a primitive bow because we know too much, our universe and knowledge base is too vast to think primitive.
...now, that ought to get the popcorn out. ;)
-
I have no problem whatsoever with the question. However, I think the question should not be asked of others, but of yourself. And then it should be answered with your hands, not your mouth.
Start by putting power tools in a closet. Finish and shoot the bow.
Put away modern hand tools and make or purchase pre-industrial age type tools (with appropriate quality metals, etc). Finish and shoot the bow.
Put away medieval era forged metals and replace with primitive in-the-ground forged bronze tools, along with bone and stone. You know the this part, make and shoot.
Lastly, put those away and go find some rocks. Rinse and repeat.
I got as far as buying a pre-industrial age spokeshave and trying to tune it. Never even finished the bow. In fact, I went in the house and turned the modern A/C down, grabbed a cold one from the modern fridge, turned on some livestream music from my online computer, and nursed my badly bruised ego. So, yeah, I understand your question. Heck, if you go back to my profile and look up my earliest posts, I will bet you dollars to donuts that I STARTED A THREAD AND THREW OUT THE EXACT SAME QUESTION. In fact, I think it is an unwritten rule that you have to go through that stage. But the one thing I have seen time after time in here, is that the person asking the question never really takes anyone elses answer until they find their own answer. The ones that keep the debate alive (and seem to get worked up, or worse yet work everyone else up to a fine lather) are, without exception, those that never post their work or their experience. They are folks with long spoons and no real sense of purpose, but to stir the pot and create discord.
So get out there and find your own truth to this age old question. And as always, post your experiences complete with pics.
-
JW, was spokeshave metal too soft and rough, i.e. not correctly heat treated and its edge not defined correctly?
-
JW, was spokeshave metal too soft and rough, i.e. not correctly heat treated and its edge not defined correctly?
It was one of those where the blade had two ears that you tapped deeper or shallower through through wooden body....
-
A 2017 compound bow can be considered a primitive weapon to some. I just think of it as old school no mater the time period. As you go back in time things get more interesting. To toss the modern tools aside and built a bow as it was done a couple thousand years ago would be very primitive.
-
I live in the Kansas City area. I'm thinking a precontact bow. Even though until trade routes were set up native people didn't
have the steel tools. Knives , axes , unless they got them in a raid. Time period before 1670. The French were in the area around 1680.
Dog
-
I live in the Kansas City area. I'm thinking a precontact bow. Even though until trade routes were set up native people didn't
have the steel tools. Knives , axes , unless they got them in a raid. Time period before 1670. The French were in the area around 1680.
Dog
I would be willing to bet there were wrought iron hatchets/tomahawks with welded steel bits in the trade pipeline in the KC area by then.
-
Do a search for Jaime Leffler on this site. Jaime cut down a tree with a stone axe head I sent him, split it with antler wedges and used all stone tools to shape and tiller it. Even force dried and heat treated it over a fire. There is an article in one of the older PA magazines and also one about his son and daughter making their own bow with the same tools.
-
I moved jamie's bow post up on it's own
-
I too am not keen on the word 'primitive'.
As humans we are always looking for the most efficient, easiest way to do a particular job. It is a shame really because that is why we are in the position we are now....I know when i'd have rather lived.
To use stone tools requires a change of mindset, once you manage that then it is no different to using modern tools. You are still using a tool directed by your thoughts to make something.
-
you would have to go back in time ,, in a time machine,, make the bow there,, for it to be primitive,, :) right???
-
In the F&I circle we called that experimental archeology. Mindset would be a key. The 20 years I portrayed a warrior/elder
from my great grandmothers tribe. I had to work hard to get modern language as well as time concept out. I ate from a gourd
bowl with a clam shell. This bow thing is a quest for me. Just wanted you alls thoughts.
Spotted Dog
-
I could only respect a truly primitive approach. No tools. Gnaw the tree down and chew in the tiller. If you post pics, please wear a loincloth, or preferably a full hide from a critter ya killed with yer bare hands. >:D
-
the primitive bow thing can really be what you make it,,
I really enjoy the feel of shooting a bow like someone thousands of years ago might have hunted with,,
I like that it takes my full concetration to be proficient,, and that there is no easy way or short cut ,,,to master the skill of making or shooting one,, it is just great fun for me,, and fullfilling to be successful,, either hunting or shooting,, :)
-
Couldn't agree more, Brad. Well said.
-
You know Deep was a good title I was thinking about this thread while working on a bow yesterday & was thinking it is impossible for me to totally make a primitive bow I'm to far gone in the technical evolution ,iPhone ,iPad ,iMac ,microwave ,4 wheel drive ,GPS navigation, satellite TV,running water ,flush toilets Ect . So my idea of Primitive is hide from my wife,Boss,family, turn off my iPhone & make some shavings & dream about hunting with my new stick if I build it right, then when I'm done pull out my digital camera take some pics & send them digitally to my Primitive Freinds.
-
I think it is really a question for each individual.
Materials matter. I think of it more as "natural" than "primitive". Wood, horn, stone, sinew, linen, flax, leather, products derived directly from plants or animals without modern processing methods such as glass fiber or plastics.
Some of the wood-horn-sinew bows I would be hard pressed to call "primitive" in one sense but I do think they meet the definition in other ways such as belonging to a different past age and made with natural materials.
Does the wood know it was shaped with a band saw and steel tools instead of stone? What if is was rough cut by steel and finished with stone? So again I go with materials more than anything
-
I wanted to expand on this a little by comparing two bows. The first would be a "War Bow" circa 1400 England and the second what is often termed "Ishi's Bow"
Materials:
Warbow: Yew Stave, Horn for Nocks, Possibly Hide Glue for Nocks
Ishi's Bow: Mountain Juniper, Sinew, Salmon Skin Glue, Buckskin
Design:
Warbow: Simple Self Bow with Horn Nocks no Grip
Ishi's Bow: Sinew Backed Recurved Flat Bow with Buckskin Grip
Construction Method:
Warbow: as best we know shaped with steel or iron tools
Ishi's Bow:The wood was obtained by splitting a limb from a tree and utilizing the outer layers, including the sap wood. By scraping and rubbing on sandstone, he shaped and finished it. The recurved tips of the bow he made by bending the wood backward over a heated stone. Held in shape by cords and binding to another piece of wood, he let his bow season in a dark, dry place. Here it remained from a few months to years, according to his needs. After being seasoned he backed it with sinew. First he made a glue by boiling salmon skin and applying it to the roughened back of the bow. When it was dry he laid on long strips of deer sinew obtained from the leg tendons. By chewing these tendons and separating their fibers, they became soft and adhesive. Carefully overlapping the ends of the numerous fibers he covered the entire back very thickly. At the nocks he surrounded the wood completely and added a circular binding about the bow.
During the process of drying he bound the sinew tightly to the bow with long, thin strips of willow bark. After several days he removed this bandage and smoothed off the edges of the dry sinew, sized the surface with more glue and rubbed everything smooth with sandstone. Then he bound the handgrip for a space of four inches with a narrow buckskin thong.
Conclusion:
Made using "primitive" tools Ishi's bow appears to have a more sophisticated design and method of construction including backing with sinew (use of multiple materials in conjunction to improve their properties) and heat manipulation. In contrast the War Bow, although made using steel tools by a more technologically advanced culture, was a more primitive design in many ways being a simple self bow relying on the inherit qualities of the wood.
Both bows were ideally suited for the task they were designed for, Ishi's for hunting and the War Bow, when allied with a sophisticated tactical doctrine, for war.
But which would you consider more "primitive" the sophisticated design from the primitive culture or the primitive design from the sophisticated culture? And in this case is it the design of the tools, steel versus stone, or the design of the bow that wins out?