Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on February 05, 2017, 07:23:38 pm
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On the bow I'm working on now I'm trying for minimal set. I traced the back on a sheet of paper and started in. Started with 1 1/4" natural reflex. I've got the tips moving about six inches. I decided to check against the tracing. One limb is fine and the other has about 1/2"(at the tip) of set, looks like it's all just out of the fade. What do I do now? Iv'e still got 21" to go.
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Sounds like that limb is working to much at the fade to me
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https://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,17294.msg239122.html#msg239122
This is badgers mass theory for no set tillering
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So I should leave that area? Since I have so far to go, eventually that area will be strong enough. Then do I start scraping there again. Am I supposed to be treating this area like a hinge, sorta?
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OK, i'll read that, again :D
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OK a quick look a that. I've read it about half dozen times It all makes sense but any explanation I've read tells you how to find set but I haven't seen anything that says what to do once you notice it. Bubby said,"Sounds like that limb is working to much at the fade to me." So now what do I do? Maybe it sounds like I'm whining but I'm stumped here. I've read the TBB series a bunch of times and didn't see an answer. Help
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All I've got is my own experience to go on, but according to that...
whenever an area is bending more than I want I leave it alone and work somewhere else
for me set always happens when an area bends too much for too long and with too much force, thus proceeding slowly is so important
wider limbs and/or sinew on shorter/higher stressed designs helps a lot
I could be wrong, but once it happens there's no fixing it. I love this thing Badger said, "If we have to exercise the bow to register changes, we are actually damaging the wood. We don't want the wood to have any memory of ever being bent if possible." I'm going to read that mass theory of his right now!
Okay, I read it. :o That's one of the coolest things I've learned about on PA yet.
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Without pics dc i would say treat it like a hinge and stay away from it for a bit you have plenty of room to catch it up
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Thanks Upstate and Bubby
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make the rest of the limb work more,, thats the point,, if you notice a certain area of the bow working to much or taking set ,,,, even it out,, its telling you the rest of the limb needs be working evenly,, or sharing the strain evenly,,
your right it is tricky, but you will get it,,,,
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On the bow I'm working on now I'm trying for minimal set.
just curious DC, but how did you set your weight goal?, and are you tillering with the "never pull it harder than your intended draw weight" rule? Have you braced he bow yet?
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On the bow I'm working on now I'm trying for minimal set.
just curious DC, but how did you set your weight goal?, and are you tillering with the "never pull it harder than your intended draw weight" rule? Have you braced he bow yet?
I make my bows around 42-43 pounds. I never pull it harder than the draw weight. I haven't braced it yet.
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make the rest of the limb work more,, thats the point,, if you notice a certain area of the bow working to much or taking set ,,,, even it out,, its telling you the rest of the limb needs be working evenly,, or sharing the strain evenly,,
your right it is tricky, but you will get it,,,,
I guess this is why I miss things when I'm reading. "make the rest of the limb work more" doesn't explain to me what I have to do. Does it mean leave it stiff or does it mean make it bend more. In this post would it still be true to substitute "bend" or "bending" where ever it says "work" or "working". I think I'm catching on, slowly :D
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DC
if you pull it to its full weight on the long string you might aggravate the weak area near the fade, as the long string puts more stress on the center of the bow. perhaps pulling somewhat less than full and getting the bow bending more than usual before bracing might help.
I am not sure how tillering to the usual weight goal is going to go hand in hand with shooting for less set than normal? or have I misconstrued what you mean by minimal?
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Since you have no pics shown I will go through the whole process a person could see what's going on.Without trying to sound like a know it all here in the beginning at rest for easiest tillering you want the bow limbs to look alike at a side view profile.This I'm sure you know.Now floor tiller it to bending evenly with the same pressure on each limb.At this stage you should of seen the uneven bend already.This I'm sure you know too.Adjust that so they bend alike with the same amount of pressure.4" of tip movement floor tillering will still get you a 50# bow.Now on your tillering tree with the long string if you've floor tillered good enough your limbs should be bending close to evenly at 6" of tip movement below your handle.I use a poundage graduation tester that shows me the poundage it is at that 6" of tip movement.If it is around 50#'s for your case for a 42 to 43 pound bow it could be braced.It will more than likely be around a 60# bow yet for sure.Go from there tillering without over stressing past your draw weight adusting limbs to each bend evenly to your draw weight.Your on your way.
The trick is to get a good floor tiller and things will go smoothly.Good floor tillering is an art in my book and takes time to learn properly.It reduces stress on the limbs before first bracing happens and if it's off a little like a 1/4" positive tiller or so it won't stress the limbs at all.Getting good enough at floor tillering you can jump right to the short string and brace it even tillered around 5 to 10 pounds above your intended draw weight.Learning these things properly first will make it much easier to tiller a bow for minimal integrety check type set.
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I really like your exsplanation Ed , thats pretty much what I did on my last bow & ended up with minimal set by far I spent most of the tiller time working the bow to brace & concentrated on dead smooth tapers Once there like that it was just a matter of adjusting weight & fades , I like to sweat the bow for 3-4 hrs along the way just because I like to let the wood show its true colors before moving on I dont have a good eye for tiller like some so that way helps me have a system to get me to good tiller. To each his own but it works for me.
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I thought that this was a pretty generic question and I didn't think pictures would help, especially this early in the game. There is really nothing a picture would show. I'm not looking for instructions on how to do low set tillering. What I want to know is when I am tillering and I discover some set what do I do? Do I scrape that area more or less? It's sounding like I should treat the area that is taking set like a hinge and avoid it.
Ed- you gave a very good explanation of how you tiller but you never mentioned what to do about the spots that have taken set.
I'm sorry to everyone for this dragging on maybe I picked the wrong title. I think Upstate and Bubby are right but they didn't sound all that sure and I just need a few moew answers.
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Don, if you discover an area taking set, don't remove anymore wood from that area.
It's over stressed and you need to get other areas working
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Thanks Goat. I don't know why this has been such a stumbling block. I guess I missed something early on.
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Hi DC, do you have a moisture meter to check staves before you start working them? I have invested in one and while I quarter my logs when they are green and do some initial shaping as well while the wood is green, I don't start working / tillering them until the moisture has dropped to below 10%. I have found, that since I am using the moisture meter, I have much less of an issue with set on the bows I am making. That in combination with the fact, that I have also become much more patient in tillering (I take a long time and scrape very little at a time) is helping me a great deal to avoid set.
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I have a hot(warm) box that I keep my staves in for at least a month before I work them. It is a constant 50% RH and I weigh the staves regularly. I don't trust meters, I think they just measure surface moisture.
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No shame in having these homogenous material bows throw you a curve.They do it to all of us.Might need a bit more info and background as to how you come to the results that you did without you realizing they are important though.Did you balance the profile of limbs prior to any bending?If so did you heat any area into a balance?Could be you did'nt heat it hot enough to hold.This is assuming your taper is nice and even on both limbs too.If not you removed too much at that area that's showing you taking set.Then like said leave it alone.If by the fade.Remove wood above it and outward then to relieve the stress.Balance the other limb to bend the same.Whatever you do to one limb because of a strained area you'll need to do to the other to match the strength.I'm just spit ball quessing here because of no info or pics.Others are too.
There are those who take the viewpoint to take set out with heat.That has worked but to me not the best option.
After reading here I actually gave you instructions on my way of getting the mass right for a bow because it has start somewhere to get to low set tillering and along the way with your bow something is'nt right in your viewpoint.
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I thought that this was a pretty generic question and I didn't think pictures would help, especially this early in the game. There is really nothing a picture would show. I'm not looking for instructions on how to do low set tillering. What I want to know is when I am tillering and I discover some set what do I do? Do I scrape that area more or less? It's sounding like I should treat the area that is taking set like a hinge and avoid it.
Ed- you gave a very good explanation of how you tiller but you never mentioned what to do about the spots that have taken set.
I'm sorry to everyone for this dragging on maybe I picked the wrong title. I think Upstate and Bubby are right but they didn't sound all that sure and I just need a few moew answers.
Maybe it's a language thing ey 😆
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dont take wood off if it is showing set there,,, remove wood from other parts of the limbs keeping tiller as even as possible,,
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Don, if you discover an area taking set, don't remove anymore wood from that area.
It's over stressed and you need to get other areas working
Yep thats when a hinge develops. >:D
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Actually this is one of the most straight forward ones I've worked on. 1 1/4" natural reflex and pipe straight from the front profile. I screwed up somehow. It's just a minor thing, I still have some reflex so it will still be a good bow. I was just shooting for low set and wanted to nip this in the bud. And then I found myself standing there with the pruners not knowing where to nip :D :D It's all good now. I will get at it as soon as the shop warms up. Thanks all.
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Glad you are on your way, DC.
Good floor tillering is an art in my book and takes time to learn properly.
I missed this often repeated bit of advice when I started building bows, and learned how important it is the hard way.
Ed, can we see a pic of your "poundage graduation tester"?
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IMHO the best way to do no set tillering is not bending it until we are almost done tillering. If we make several same bows from sister staves or from one big board, we can just finish one as best as we can, and copy its dimensions for all others. After that most tillering will be done on the sides of limbs. I guess that's what they do at the factories. Not sure this is worth the trouble unless you are going for some kind of record.
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If you are using a well established bow wood and have a good idea of the dimensions it needs to make a bow your battle is 1/2 over. You also have to be sure it is dry enough. I don't pay too much attention to monitoring the wood unless I am building a design or weight I am less familiar with and am not certain of dimensions I should be using.
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DC....Glad things are ok.I always hope for the best on all my bows too.In the end wood is wood.Like George says set happens.Good luck.
willie....It's just a digital poundage tester from 3 Rivers.Nothing elite or anything.Anybody can get one.I call it a graduation tester because it'll show me the most minute change in weight at the same draw.It has to be pulled to the exact same spot.I don't really think it's totally necessary to have to make a nice bow but it does make the job easier.The good old eye ball is the most critical thing out there yet.Starting from a bathroom scale to a fish scale to this.They do have a price tag if I remember of around 50.00 or so though.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/DSCN1479_zpsfay1nlfq.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/DSCN1479_zpsfay1nlfq.jpg.html)
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LOL , I thought that you were just making a little tongue in cheek humor, but you never know, there are unusual tools in most every bowmakers tool box.
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Yea it's hard for me to lighten up a conversation at times but I like a good time as well as anybody though.....lol.Would'nt that be called a poundage graduation tester????.....lol.
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You can get a digital luggage scale that is quite a bit cheaper but the display is small.
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You can get a digital luggage scale that is quite a bit cheaper but the display is small.
I use a luggage scale, and it isn't even digital... real cheap! O:)
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I started with a spring scale and upgraded to the $50 digital. I like the accuracy, but it has a mind of its own, and turns itself off without warning, like some women I have known....
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The battery needs to be good on these digitals but know what you mean.Patience seems to be the key word here on many things....lol.
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You can get a digital luggage scale that is quite a bit cheaper but the display is small.
I use a luggage scale, and it isn't even digital... real cheap! O:)
Yup, mine cost six bucks.
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Yea that's not bad but cheap is as cheap does usually.Mine has lasted tillering dozens and dozens of bows and has been a real asset to me.I did many bows with just a bathroom scale long ago.
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I didn't want to hijack Willie's "set" post because this is early set. It was cut in 2014 and has been in my shop ever since. Just to make sure back on Feb6 I put this stave in the warm box(constant 45% RH) and after a week it weighed the same within a gram. I decided to forge ahead keeping in mind the advice received so far. I took a few scrapes everywhere but where it was showing set. I got it to low brace(4") and pulled it to 40# about ten times. The lines are the original shape of the back before I did anything. I can see that the set is getting worse in the area where it was showing set before but now there appears to be set everywhere. There is 2" of set and I haven't got it to full brace yet. Can you give me any ideas what might be going on? It's never been pulled more than 40# and the tips have never been back more than 6". Why so much set? What should I have done differently?
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ok I didnt read everything again, but here are some thoughts that came to mind,,
is that reflex you started with Natural,,or induced,,( if induced thats the main problem)
what kind of wood is it,,
how wide is it,,
also if it is a wood that wants to be 8% or so,, you still dont know what the moisture content is,, right,,???
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Natural reflex, Yew an 1 3/8"(35mm) wide. So 3 years in 60-70%RH puts it a 12 %(more or less. That's to high but then it had a week at 45% and lost no weight. That should bring it down to an acceptable level, doncha think.
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bradsmith
I know this is not going to help DC much, but your questions imply that natural reflex should be treated different from induced.
Would you be kind enough to explain a little of what you have experienced, as to how they should be treated differently?
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I'm glad you asked that Willie I was curious Too but didn't want to give him another head ache >:D
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Here is my digital pull tester I just got can make bows up to 600 lb...lol I have never worked with yew & don't know how it seasons but even with it being in the hot box could the RH internally still be a bit high ? I have been getting a little anal about seasoning wood lately and got one of those non invasive moister meters that seems to work ok ,it shoots a little radar type signal in to the wood & is adjustable for different densities , I know Willie kinda digital high tech but give a kid a hammer & every thing needs nailed ...lol also doesn't the ring ratio in yew make a huge difference in its strength ? From what I have read Yew is kind of a different animal
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DC, you are scraping where it shows set? Jawge
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Is the reflex dried in or was it actually reflexed in the tree?
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willie...I think what brad means is there are three ways to get reflex that holds the best on wooden bows.Natural/glued in as in laminates/ heat induced/and dried in.While tillering the reflex that holds the best/takes the least set is in that order I just stated in my experience.Brads' points and questions are all lagitimate.
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willie...I think what brad means is there are three ways to get reflex that holds the best on wooden bows.Natural/glued in as in laminates/ heat induced/and dried in.While tillering the reflex that holds the best/takes the least set is in that order I just stated in my experience.Brads' points and questions are all lagitimate.
I would agree with this and Brads post.
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Stick bender, the whole "needs to be high ring count" with yew is a wives tale. Cheers- Brendan
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Jawge- no I hardly scraped it at all.
PatM- You got me there, I can't remember what I did this morning let alone 3 years ago. :) But it was a sapling and I don't remember cutting a curved sapling. Maybe it is dried in. If it is dried in reflex will it start to behave once it straightens out?
I'm beginning to think that it might be moisture. I'm going to put this in my warm box for a month or so and then take another shot at it. I've got other wood to work on so there's no loss. It will eliminate the doubt. I'll keep weighing it. We'll see. If it still takes set after that I'll assume it was dried in reflex that's pulling out.
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I just don't consider dried in reflex as representing the actual shape of the wood inherently. The outside must shrink longitudinally so stretching that back out is not like belly set imho.
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thanks Ed, I had not thought, before now, to consider three different types of reflex. (natural, heat induced and dried-in.)
The first must be inherent in the wood as it is laid down in the ring growth? And the second being induced by heat, perhaps the heat also helps it to set it up harder or "lock it in", at least more so than the third, which may be a result of differences in the way the most youngest (and wetter?) sapwood dries with more shrinkage than the older wood underneath? just speculating as to the causes, but it makes sense, I suppose, that the wood should be treated different, depending on how the reflex was formed.
These differences would make me want to reserve the better kinds of reflex for the more highly strained parts of the bow.
would your observations hold true for set taking in a bow with a straight profile? or is there something about making them hold in reflex that seems different?
I just don't consider dried in reflex as representing the actual shape of the wood inherently. The outside must shrink longitudinally so stretching that back out is not like belly set imho.
Good point Pat, I often wonder just how much compression damage is "hidden" by a strong back
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Even thugh wood just not holding its shape and taking set looks the same there is a difference. Set tends to creep back into shape when the bow is rested while a bow just not holding its shape won't creep back as much. In most cases we have a combination of both taking place. Wood not holding its shape isn't neccessarily the fault of the bowyer or the design.
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So would the wood not holding it's shape show itself earlier in the tillering process. As in it will go back to it's natural shape right away where set will happen later when the wood is actually being strained.
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also it would be helpful to see the low braced profile,, and being pulled to 40#,,, that being said,, I know the profile is not exactly what you want, but I see a great shooting bow in there,, :)
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Your wish. The low brace is now 5 1/2", I was fiddling with the string on another thread. 40# is now 18". I'm further into this than I thought. Dern near finished. It's holding 1/4" of reflex.
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thats looking good,, remind me the length and your taget weight,,
since the bow was not taking any set into the handle area,, maybe you could work that a bit,, but I am gonna let the tiller experts comment on that,, I am not so good tillering from a photo,, I figured your bow is roughly 65@28 right now,, so you have some weight to work with,, but not sure of your draw or taget weight ?
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66" NTN and I'm shooting for 40-45#
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Just a little thing. I'm now tillering a Douglas Maple bow and I'm not to brace height yet. This one is just the opposite to the Yew. I've got the tips moving about 5 inches and I've 'gained' a half inch of reflex. Reaction wood I guess. Goes to show, maybe fretting(bad choice of words) about set in the first few inches is a waste of time. Looks like it can or can't come from too many variables.
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could well be DC, the bow I am presently extracting out of a hickory board, is doing weird things as it gets thinner.
just out of curiousity, did the maple tree you took the stave from have a sunny side and a bottom side? ie was it a leaner?
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Douglas Maple is much like Vine maple apparently. Finding a vertical one is rare. I always mark the high side and if it's big enough to split I mark the bottom piece as compression wood. So far I haven't worked any compression wood but it's waiting in the wings. It wasn't strapped to anything(at least in recent memory) and wasn't terribly reflexed so maybe this was more vertical than most. You ask hard questions. Trying to remember if a tree I cut two years ago was leaning, those brain cells are long dead. ;D
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ok, at least we can assume that it was harvested and split with the tension side as the back. ;D
and another question if I may,
is the belly of the bow made from what was once on the compression side of the tree, ie small diameter sapling with pith still in bow?,
Or is the whole bow made from what was once the upper side of the tree?
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It's all the upper side. The sapling was about 3" dia I would guess. The other side might be kicking around somewhere but I'll never know.
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sometimes I wonder if the reflex that is seen when a bow gets thinned, is a result of the most recently grown sapwood acting different from the older wood. I don't know if the older wood towards the belly could be considered heartwood or not, but it might be "seasoned" different from the ring just under the bark. If the whole bow is made from what was always on the upper side of the tree, then it would it not all be tension wood?
I use the term "seasoned" very loosely here, as I do not know a better word, although I guess it is possible that interior wood might season somehow, even if the tree has not yet been cut down. I am told it is dead, but still wet, and on it's way to becoming heartwood.
what ever the state of the belly, the new sapwood seems to be contracting. Perhaps it is just a difference in the way
the newest wood dries?
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In my limited experience the outer wood shrinks more. I think that the closer you go to the center the less water the wood holds. If it was the other way wood would check from the middle out.
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Been watching this . Still thinking. Arvin
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If you are using a well established bow wood and have a good idea of the dimensions it needs to make a bow your battle is 1/2 over. You also have to be sure it is dry enough. I don't pay too much attention to monitoring the wood unless I am building a design or weight I am less familiar with and am not certain of dimensions I should be using.
-is there a chart somewhere listing 'best' dimensions by species?
-DC it sounds like you have your question answered and then some... but I always write "NO" in the spot that I need to leave alone...
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there is a chart in TBB 1 listing some species and widths for a 66" bow. specific gravities are also shown. Specific gravities can be used to judge most whitewoods, and differing dimensions can be adjusted for.