Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: shofu on April 17, 2017, 10:57:57 pm
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So not sure if this is a 'don't ask don't tell' topic but how do you all go about harvesting wood for bows? I know the default answer is get permission or permit but I am guessing that that doesn't always cover everything...
i.e. last week I found an amazing grove of 'old growth' ironwood (Ocean Spray - Holodiscus Discolor). It was on a parcel for sale slated for development for new housing. I was considering contacting realtor and asking about harvesting some. I went away for the Easter weekend and when I drove by today the whole place was clearcut! All the *3-5.5" diameter stave and knot free staves were stuffed in slash piles for burning!
This is their property and obviously legal - but shouldn't it be a crime to burn such things? Don't get me started on what they do with yew while logging...
Anyhow - do I scavenge the slash before burning or just be sad and hope for a better future?
*most OS is 1-1.5" in diameter
Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
George
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Talk to tree services, arborist or folks clearing power right of ways.
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This shouldn't even be a question. >:D
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Go get some! Cheers- Brendan
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Don't ask, don't tell, and move real fast before it is charcoal and ashes!👹👹👹😀! It is gone any way!
Hawkdancer
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Thanks Pat B for towing the line and being on the straight and narrow (also good attributes for bows unless I am mistaken?)
Pat M - that is a little cryptic and good use of emojis! ;)
penderbender - thanks for your honesty: are you on Pender Island, B.C.??
Hawkdancer - I confess when I saw this I pulled over and grabbed a 7' 3.5" clear stave that was already cut. I justified it in my mind that I would split it and give half to DC for his ongoing OS research (this is very intriguing wood!). It is so easy to justify something the authorities say is wrong if you feel righteous about it - does that make me a criminal
/? If so, why don't I feel guilty? (maybe a wood sociopath?)
Cheers,
G
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I attempt to ask the land owner for permission. I've never been refused yet. If I can't track down the owner I leave it. If it's been on the ground more than a week and on public land I consider it fair game.
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Look at it this way: you are doing this people favor by taking their wood! They are going to burn this wood and you know that burning wood takes time and physical effort, and you as a good citizen can take this wood and those people will have less work to do. You are actually good guy in this story.
;) ;) ;)
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Where I live most everyone knows everyone. I don't dare cut someone's trees without their permission. Having said that I have no problem getting permission to harvest a few trees when people see what I'm using them for. From my experience the more people that know what I'm doing, the more stuff that finds its way to me.
Bjrogg
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ask (if possible) than )W(
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Always, always ask. If they say no, suck it up and move on. It's just wood. It grows on trees, don'tchaknow.
There could be a hundred reasons why they wouldn't want to say yes, and if it's on their property they have every right to the decision. Whether you think their reason for keeping it / holding it doesn't make sense is never up to you.
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We're talking about developers wiping out the whole forest here. If they are OK with that they can suck up people salvaging the scraps.
Whenever I see a sign indicating someone has successfully submitted a re-zoning application to put a subdivision on top of a borderline protected nature preserve and the entire habitat will be reduced to brush piles, I'm going in.
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PatM, I second that. In my case, when I see people cutting everything that stands in their way, acres of this; taking just few 5" trees is not going to mean anything to them.
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In a case like this...mountain bike and a bow saw. Secret Squirrel. I have my wife pick me up at the predesignated extraction site on the fly. ;D
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I have pulled osage logs out of a huge brush pile while they were lighting the other end on fire. The land owner was standing at the pile when I happened by. I had seen the osage in the pile for a few weeks but didn't know who owned the land so I left it alone.
Because of my honesty, after I explained to the land owner that I saw the wood but wouldn't touch it without permission he pointed across the road to about 100 more acres of standing trees and said" cut all you want over there, we are going to clear it off in the future".
Another time I was walking in a patch of woods near my house and ran into an old man. I asked if he knew who owned the land because I had seen a couple of osage trees I would like to cut. He said" why don't you just cut it, no one will know". I told him if I didn't have permission I wouldn't cut any trees on the place, it was just the way I operate. Next he said" I own this land cut all you want". This is where I cut my very first osage tree and 20 years later I still have a stave from it under my house.
The thing about some people is they tell themselves a lie to justify their criminal behavior(stealing wood) such as "no one will miss a little bit of wood", buy into their lie and proceed.
With a little leg work, research and phone calls you can have more wood than you know what to do with. Although I have given a bunch of it away, I have had three lifetimes worth of osage cut and stored in the past, all cut with permission.
Because of age and back surgery my osage cutting days are over but I still have at least a lifetime worth of osage cut and stored.
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This has to be thought about in ethics. I don't care about laws that the government comes up with when my actions hurt no one. When it's federal or state land, I'll do what I can to get a permit, only because it's everyone's land and its needs to be managed properly. If I get denied a permit for a juniper tree that grows in every square foot of this area for a 1000 miles, just because it's within 100 feet of a stream, sorry, but it's becoming a bow. Private property is another story, it's theirs, including their burn pile, let alone its not ok just to be walking through private property. I don't know what their plan is, so I think permission from the land owner is a must. Ask, most people won't say no.
Eric
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Must be trespassing is legal in Alabama, Eric K.?
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I see your point Pearl and you are right. The land I met the old man on had city sidewalks running through it that had fallen into disrepair, the tree I cut was growing out of one of the sidewalks. I was indeed trespassing because I didn't know if the city or someone else owned the land. The land was not posted with no trespassing signs but I don't know it that is a requirement in Bama, as that neither here nor there because I didn't have direct permission to be there until I met the land owner.
Since that first day I have never ventured onto someones land looking for wood without first getting permission.
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I have always thought if I ran out of places to cut wood I would place and ad in the local free classified or on Craig's list stating "good money paid for straight, standing osage trees". The trees are considered trash wood to every one who has them and a lot of people want them gone. Post some pictures of hedge apples on the ground for those who don't know one tree from another.
You could access the stave quality of a tree and pay accordingly, say $100 for a tree that might yield 10 staves or more.
I haven't taken such a route because I have plenty of osage but if I didn't I believe this would work.
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I'm with Pat m, if they are clearling/burning a bunch of land, Get in there and get some wood. Yes I live on beautiful pender island George. Hopefully I'll get to meet you at the wood bow gathering in september. Cheers- Brendan
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My point is; if they are clearing land and burning wood it is not that hard to walk over to the bulldozer operator or loggers and ask who you could talk to about cutting a little wood. I have done it many times, all my wood was cut in front of a bulldozer, mostly for city land development for either subdivisions of commercial development.
My biggest score was on 650 acres of land they were developing for a new golf course. We cut wood for a month solid and got so sick of looking at osage we finally let the bulldozers have the rest of it it. My hands and fingers looked like swollen stuffed sausages after I finished debarking and removing the sapwood from all those staves with my drawknife.
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There is just something about people completely demolishing nature that makes me not want to be so polite.
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...pave paradise and put up a parking lot! :(
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I would split it and give half to DC for his ongoing OS research (this is very intriguing wood!). Cheers,
G
Thank you George
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I cut LOTS of wood, and it is always with the permission of the land owner. I have found that when you tell them what it is for, a lot smile (I think) thinking of their days as a youth and are more than glad to let you cut some wood. Remember cash is king, but a little brush clearing, or some other sort of labor offered makes people believe you are truly grateful, something a lot of younger people don't offer these days. (sorry younger guys)
You may even gain a new friendship, and another hunting area....just my thoughts.
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The way I see it I cannot read someone elses' mind or assume what they think.Neither can the power to be to talk to about getting bow wood about me.To do that is just as much an insult as what I think the waste of the trees are going through.That's why respectable communication helps.If I don't give them respect how is it can I think they give me respect.A lot of trouble comes from misunderstandings and that stems from lack of proper communication or assuming they think the same way I do.
Just because getting a little sympathetic backing comes from PA members on here I'll garauntee you will not hold any water when the focus is at you from them with ethics not being the topic,and you won't get nothing more then verbal support from the sympathizers leaving you high and dry.
I'm on your side for getting good bow wood and will not lead you on.I don't like being told what to do any more then anybody else but if I'm on the side that gave me permission I really don't care what others think.Most people will agree as to not liking to see something go to waste.I just take care of it myself then after talking to them without involving anybody else.
One thing I do do impulsively without permission and that is cut dogwood for arrows from ditches.100% of the land owners here feel as though dogwood is a pain and invasive and want to get rid of it.
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This is just a hunch, but I'm guessing land owners might feel more strongly about someone sneaking in and cutting trees then non landowners. I do own land and if someone asked me if they could cut a tree for a bow I'd help them pick and cut it. If I caught them sneaking on my property and taking it I'd be very upset. I really think if you just ask, you might not get permission right away. There are many legal reasons someone wouldn't want to be responsible for allowing someone on their property. Especially doing something risky like cutting down trees. If you talk politely to someone in charge or working the site, chances are real good if you leave your phone number you'll get a call for more wood than you can use. Just my hunch
Bjrogg
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Beadman, I think I agree with you, but not sure about this sentence, which is, perhaps, a direct literal translation from attic Greek: "Neither can the power to be to talk to about getting bow wood about me." Huh? ;-)
Back in '98, I think, we had a big bad ice storm in Maine. I drove to work every day seeing trees down everywhere. Along I-95, there were a lot of black locusts down and that's one of the better bow woods that grows in Maine.
I called the MDOT and talked to some official and told him I would like to stop along the interstate and cut some of it to make bows. I assured him I would have a flashing yellow light on my van and would park well off the road.
He said he couldn't officially give me permission but he didn't think anybody would bother me. Well, I got to explain that two separate times to Maine State Troopers, who both told me to be careful and to let that be the only instance.
The state subsequently contracted to have all the down or standing locust cut, chipped and used for biofuel.
It was an interesting adventure.
Jim
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Unless you have permission, picking through a slash pile is trespassing and theft.
If that doesn't bother you then why even ask what others think.
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This has to be thought about in ethics. I don't care about laws that the government comes up with when my actions hurt no one. When it's federal or state land, I'll do what I can to get a permit, only because it's everyone's land and its needs to be managed properly. If I get denied a permit for a juniper tree that grows in every square foot of this area for a 1000 miles, just because it's within 100 feet of a stream, sorry, but it's becoming a bow.
HMMM...
I wonder how that would work,if other people,had this same attitude.Thats probably why some of these laws were passed.
Better hope the judge is a sympathetic bowyer,with a sense of humor.
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Thanks everyone for input! Didn't meant to stir the pot, I have my gut and I have my mind and I use both to make decisions.
I went to the site yesterday but they were too busy cutting down trees and piling them to burn. I went back today with a case of beer and talked to the excavator operator. I told him that I wanted to save the ironwood and make bows and I gave him the beer in good faith, win or lose.
He figured I had a decent chance, took my card and said he would ask owner and to come back tomorrow.
Fingers crossed!
I will let you know how it goes.
Cheers,
George
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you made the best move! :OK
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I hope it works out for you shofu. I really think that's the best way to go. If you can find a contact that works sites like this regularly I think you have a great chance of being buried in wood. It might not be this site but those guys will be working different sites in time. Hopefully you get the thumbs up from the owner, you get two from me. :OK :OK
Bjrogg
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I hate seeing things go to waste as much as the next guy, but unless I am on my own land I always ask
permission before stepping foot on anyone else property. I expect no less if someone wants to come onto my property . :) You made the right call George win or loose. :)
Pappy
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Send me the beer, and I'll send you a written permission slip ;) O:)
Del
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Jim...Power to be was meant to describe the owner of the land.I don't speak Greek.
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This must be where that beg forgiveness versus ask permission saying comes from. ;)
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Thanks everyone for input! Didn't meant to stir the pot, I have my gut and I have my mind and I use both to make decisions.
I went to the site yesterday but they were too busy cutting down trees and piling them to burn. I went back today with a case of beer and talked to the excavator operator. I told him that I wanted to save the ironwood and make bows and I gave him the beer in good faith, win or lose.
He figured I had a decent chance, took my card and said he would ask owner and to come back tomorrow.
Fingers crossed!
I will let you know how it goes.
Cheers,
George
Several years ago there was a piece of land being developed near me, it used to be a Hospital of more than 100 years of age. Someone had planted a couple Yew trees, I presume around the time the Hospital was built. I asked the developer if the trees were being removed, he said no. A week later I went by and the trees were gone, nothing more than a few roots sticking out of the ground
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This must be where that beg forgiveness versus ask permission saying comes from. ;)
I thought that one was saved for the wife.lol.
Bjrogg
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It's not that all surprising people not even imagining that wooden bows are being made yet.I know many around here give me a very quizzical look when I tell them what I'm up to lately.
Seems too many times trees are looked at as a nuisance and are assumed thought of as the same by everyone.Or a commodity to turn into other things besides bows.Mostly money.Just not connected to what trees do for the wildife also.I think education is part of the problem here too.Along with a complete attitude adjustment against the wasteful throw away attitude society has nowadays.I'm not a member of the Arbor society because I can never get their little gifted blue spruce trees to grow.
Just not enough bow makers out there.
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I think bjrogg hit the nail on the head for private land. Imagine looking out your window and seeing a total stranger cutting down one of your trees. Now public land, don't get me started >:( >:( >:(
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I, like most will ask the owner first. That way I'm not sweating bullets, looking over my shoulder if I'm cutting it without asking.
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Now public land, don't get me started
Asking a desk jockey for permission can be an exercise in futility. I just ask the head of enforcement.
Either you will be told you are prohibited, in no uncertain terms, or you might get the respect of a fellow "shooter", and given some helpful suggestions, as to how to proceed.
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Land developers are typically short sighted, especially with the real estate these days. Many times high-grade fir logs are cut into firewood because of land-owner ignorance. Thousands of dollars lost.
Don't mess with private land without permission. Parks are a huge no-no. Crown land being used for timber resource harvesting, its a Canadian citizens right to freely collect non-timber resources from Crown land. However many of the licence holders are trying to restrict access to these area's illegally. Mushroom picking/cone collecting wouldn't have a leg to stand on legally if it wasn't for this right.
The salal industry is un-regulated and thought to be in the millions. Many salal outfits are of foreign nationals without citizenship. The Forest enforcement officers don't even bat an eye when they see a massive pile of salal in the back of a toyota.
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I don't know about the rest of the country but in Florida to trespass on a construction site is a felony. To trespass on someone else's property without Written permission is a felony. And if you have a pocket knife it is called armed trespass, a go to prison, felony trespass.
They will help teach you respect for other people's property down here if your parents didn't. It's not worth going to jail or no longer able to own a firearm for me to cut down the crappy wood that is down here without permission.
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You Floridians and your felonies...give them out like candy! Two states I would not want to get caught breaking the law....Florida, and Texas!
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That's the way it is in cattle country.
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When in doubt, it is always good to err on the legal side of any issue. Its just not worth it
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Also keep in mind that when you approach the operator or landowner, you're educating them. You can't really blame them for wasting wood that we consider valueable, because commercially it's not.
I was working in arkansas recently and started a tree cookie collection. I actually got stopped by wildlife LEO's because I was cutting slices off existing stumps. That's right, I almost got in big trouble because I was trimming stumps that the forest service cut!!! Luckily I had a firewood permit that satisfied them.
I also would have gotten into trouble for the BIG red oak cookie I took...from a 31" red oak that fell across the road, that I generously cleared for them. That was a job. 31" red oak with a Stihl 251. Should have sent them a bill.
I also wanted a princess/empress cookie. It grows invasive in AR. They cut it and spray poison on it and it is extremely undesirable. Fastest growing hardwood in the world. I was told even with a firewood permit I couldn't cut one. Imagine that. I cannot confirm nor deny whether I found one that beavers killed and therefore qualified as dead/down for my firewood permit.
I do think it's a lot different between public land where we all pay taxes (lots and lots of taxes) for saplings that aren't commercially important and no one cares about but we can't cut because of dumb red tape, and the guy that sneaks into church yards at night to cut ancient yew trees and gives BS reasons to justify himself that amounts to "I just wanna".
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To say no one cares in regards to Public lands is to imply that you asked the opinion of every tax payer.
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If it mattered what the average tax payer thought, forest management would look a lot different. Maybe better, probably worse.