Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: jaxenro on May 24, 2017, 09:01:13 am
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I am sure this has been covered before, I searched but didn't find it, but what makes a primitive a primitive? I am sure there are different answers depending on the individual, and most of them are probably correct, but is it design, materials, methods, or maybe some of each?
For instance is a self yew ELB with horn nocks a primitive? What if it was cut on a band saw and shaped using electrical tools? Horn nocks glued on with epoxy? Finished with polyurethane? Is it just the things that affect the bows performance that move it from primitive to modern? I mean does the bow perform differently if cut with an axe, hand saw, or band saw? Is a stone age design only authentic if made with stone tools? Is a modern string on a period bow still primitive?
Would you consider a Asiatic horn bow primitive? Seems fairly sophisticated in design and execution to me. Is it that it only uses materials available before a certain time period? Natural as opposed to man made materials?
For myself I am trying to replicate items from roughly the 1840-1910 time period so I am trying to restrict myself to materials that were available and used in that period. Oil finishes, shellac, period varnishes, yet I use Titebond III which I don't think was period. I don't really use electric tools at all, except maybe a drill for the nocks, but I'm not opposed to them.
I am having some parts made to use in my miniature arrows via lost wax casting, a technique thought to be at least 3,000 years old. Is that primitive? Yet the wax model itself is printed on a 3D printer. Does that change it? I doubt the mold made from the wax knows the difference.
Again I don't think there is a correct answer just I assume there are different approaches and was wondering if anyone wanted to discuss them? I can see the challenge of trying to build using only stone tools just as I can understand using a band saw as long as the end result is close to the period design. I gues I can see the challenges and correctness of both approaches
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It's all in how you perceive it. It is impossible for modern man to be truly primitive these days but we try to keep it as simple(primitive) as possible.
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This subject can be elaborated on.My point of view is that the actual working parts are natural.Wood/horn/bamboo/flax/hemp/rawhide etc.You get the idea.As far as power tools go one can learn making more bows faster with them thus making more bows in a shorter period of time,but the learning and use of hand tools I think is essential in making primitive bows.
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I like to build wood/wood lam bows and I like shooting them.
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It's a deeper question then just primitive to me.A better and deeper understanding of the sport of archery is gotten I think.Fixing your own problems.
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It is just a term we adopted to describe the natural material bows we make. Some are obviously more primitive than others but I don't think anyone is really concerned with being actually " Primitive" It is simply a term we chose to use that seperates us from modern material bows.
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Nor was I concerned just curious about different approaches. It isn't that the person with the band saw is "wrong" and the one with the stone axe "right" just it is a different approach.
To me how someone approaches the whole issue around the hows and whys of the materials and methods they use are as fascinating and useful for learning as pictures of the end result often are
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I am a 63 year old man not primitive yet! Feel that way sometimes.If you ask my wife she might say I am a bit of a Neanderthal! Had a man come up to me at OJAM and say . These bows are not primitive. He then said . They are faster. I said yes. They have less shock. I said yes. But they are not primitive. I said I build bows for tournament shooters for selfbow classes and hunting. I don't claim to build primitive bows. It's not even on my shingle. My sign says hand crafted selfbows. That been said to each his on. Could I build a bow with a rock. Yes . Do I want to . No . I think we mostly use some power tools here on this site. Did bowyers of yesteryear have them no. It may be that primitive is in eyes of the beholder. I do learn a lot on this site about bow building in general. Happy bow building guys how ever you do it . Arvin
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I agree that it's just a general descriptive word for the use of natural materials. I don't think it has to do with primitive execution for me at all. I don't have endless spare time to toil over making bows and arrows with an adze and a flint chip. I just enjoy the "pure" earthy connection and feel of a wooden weapon and the challenges they provide for me. Metal bows don't bring out any of the same emotions. They're just lifeless objects to me. I get satisfaction from harvesting an animal with a weapon made from a living thing and with something I have spent a great deal of energy and care creating. I only use hand tools (modern) on my bows, but I do use power tools for some of my arrows and I couldn't care less what methods led me to the end result. It's also a pretty profound form of therapy for me.. both in the artistic creation and the sport of archery and all it's facets.
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^^ well said ^^
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To me primitive is a simple copy of what was made 6 thousand years ago, gut string and made by stone tools.
I have made over 150 selfbows and not one that I would what I would call a primitive bow. Being made out of natural materials itself doesn't qualify in my opinion.
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I think the term for doing it the stone age way is "abbo". Don't know if there is an Abbo Bow Forum.
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As Badger and Erik said, my bows are natural materials--finish may be modern.
The ABBO guys gather over on Paleoplanet.
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What Eric said. I don't consider a bow 'primitive' unless it was made entirely by primitive ways and means. Responsible use of that term requires some earning, IMO, so I don't use it willy-nilly. It's unnecessary and pretentious in most instances anyhow and there are usually better, more descriptive terms available.
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I wouldn't consider my own bows primitive. First they are miniatures which doesn't in itself exclude them as miniature arms have been made for thousands of years, often as funeral offerings, but mainly because I try to replicate Victorian era ELB's which, although mostly all wood, aren't primitive. I do use a hand rubbed oil finish, woods that were used like lemonwood or yew, period style nocks and handles, as much as possible. But within this I try to replicate as much as possible what was used 120 years ago both in materials and methods
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I'm with Beadman on the idea of modern tools as a means of expediting the learning process. I use the bandsaw only to cut down on the time and energy required to rough out a bow. From there all I use is a drawknife, a rasp, and sandpaper. What used to take me 6 hours or more with a hatchet now takes me 15-20 minutes.
For me, the real art/skill starts when tillering begins.
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Primitive bows are made with primitive tools and natural materials.. To me primitive tools are stone tools.
The type of tools the bowyer uses does affect the design.
Here is what I mean.
Flat bellied bows are products of the industrial age.
Stone tools work best with at least a slightly rounded belly.
I've made bows with stone tools but I do enjoy my hand tools.
Jawge
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It's a deeper question then just primitive to me.A better and deeper understanding of the sport of archery is gotten I think.Fixing your own problems.
Yeah +1
So many people shooting modern cr4p have no idea how it works or even the basics... and half of them are "coaches" ::)
Now look what you've done, you've started me off ::) ;)
Del
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Primitive, traditional, self bow and many other terms are defined by the person using them or an accepted meaning by a particular group of people. If you want to be accepted by a group that defines a term a certain way then you have to conform. Us Primitives don't conform, we adjust. So go out into the wilderness, completely neked and survive. You will be primitive or dead. I would be dead inside two weeks.
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... and if you build a only wood wheely with stone tools this could be considered primitive? ;D
So the variables could be
1) materials of the finished product (bow, string,arrows, quiver..)
2) tools used to make it
3) building techniques, item design (what if you make a flemish string out of rawhide strips?)
4)religion, spiritualism, belief, superstitions? I bet in the past that played a big part in the construction of this weapons. I doubt that a beer, music experience could be classified as truly primitive ;D
In my point of view "primitive" is often very close to the "replica" concept
We all agree that a replica is not 100% identical to the original
there are always adjustements, compromise and approximations
I'd consider primitive enough (not stating that is correct, just expressing personal opinion) when conditions 1 and 3 are met.
I also like to use self collected materials but this is an obsession of mines ;D
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I've made bows with all hand tools, but I've made most with generous use of a band saw and belt sander.
Every time I lop two pounds of Osage off the belly of a stave using a bandsaw, I have to stop and think for a minute:
How much work would that have been with hand tools?
Would that have worn me out?
What if I had to do all that work with hand tools on ten percent of my daily calories in a loincloth with winter coming and rain pouring and the crops died and a bear ate my dog and etc., or else I wouldn't eat at all?
The result is that even though the means of making my bows aren't primitive, the process gives me a deep respect for those that were truly primitive, an appreciation of true craftsmanship, and a view into a world that I wouldn't get if I ordered a bow online.
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How quickly did the Real Native Americans adapt to the tools and materials brought by the new people from the east? Was Ishi not a "primitive archer"? The various recurve designs go at least as far back as the domestication of the horse. I think " primitive" depends on which culture it comes from, not necessarily what tools are used to get there. To each his own! The product in the end and the method
Of making and shooting should be taken into consideration, not necessarily the tools. On the other hand, I am a user of weapons, not necessarily a maker.
Hawkdancer