Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: nakedfeet on June 17, 2017, 10:42:03 pm
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Somewhere along the line while I was just learning bow making, I (several times) came across the idea that you should shoot a bow about 200 times after tillering before you call it "done" and proceed to all of the fine detail and finishing work. The idea being: if it can make it past 200 shots, it can make it to 1000. And if it can make it to 1000, it should be able to make it well beyond.
A lot of things can happen as you shoot one in. The extra stress can bring out hidden flaws in the tiller, one limb can weaken, design flaws can expose themselves, weight can drop, set can increase dramatically -- and so on. And so the second idea is that: Should a bow fail in those early shots, it's best not to spend a lot of extra time on fine sanding, prettying up the tips/overlays, handles, staining, finishing, and so on.
The value in this was reinforced for me about a year ago. I had finished tillering a HHB bow. It was shooting beautifully, holding its shape, not taking any new set, holding its weight steady at 43# @ 28". And then on shot number 121 it lifted a huge splinter along the back. The problem was that it was a fairly high crowned stave. The design wasn't overstressed or pushing the limits, but obviously the wood just thought it too much.
Had I only flung a couple dozen arrows or so and called it good, this could have happened a week or two down the road after I had spent time prettying it up, and I would have been even more upset.
Now, I don't always shoot that many, but I try to get at least 100. The number is quite arbitrary, but 100-200 seems like enough time to get an honest impression of how the bow will behave. Very few of my bows have ended up in the hands of others, but as more of mine end up being traded, gifted, or sold away, I'd especially like to know that each one is solid before handing it off. Sometimes I can tell early that they are super solid, nothing is changing, and I have no reason to delay finishing any more. But sometimes even late they are still showing small tiller changes, etc.
And shooting it is different than just pulling it to full draw a bunch of times. It puts different stress on the wood that can't be replicated by pulling it on a tree hundreds of times.
As I read more and more posts, it seems that this practice is not as universal as I once thought. I've talked to, and even seen several people slapping a finish on after shooting just a few groups of arrows. I get the impression that some bowyers also try to limit any set the bow will take before handing it off to a customer or something, too, so when they get it it has the best performance possible -- even if it takes set and ends up with decrease performance later on. While I understand that, I also think it's slightly deceptive. "Hey, wood bows don't last forever."
I'm curious on others' thoughts on this, especially those who don't do it. And those who do, have you shared my experiences?
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Yes shooting in with a good bunch of arrows is essential. The subtle changes in tiller when shooting by hand versus what the tree tells you are the issue to me.
The real issue when it comes to sell one/trading etc is that you try to replicate how the new owner will hold and shoot.
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I am just at the beginning of my bow making journey. To date I have made 15 board bows from Rock Maple, Spotted Gum, and Tasmanian Blackwood. The Spotted Gum is by far my favourite of these, and having been inspired by Australian natives, I have transitioned to Ironbark split staves, both Red and Grey. I have a bunch of them roughed out; reflexed, recurved, and one even Flax Strick backed. I am allowing them to season for a while longer before tillering.
Those 15 bows, I probably only shot a couple dozen times, after finishing, before then moving on to the next one, which would hopefully be better designed, profiled, tillered and finished. I figured the flexing 30 times or so between shaves whilst tillering would be enough. :BB :OK
I am happy with my processes now, and have become a bit more patient with the whole process. However, now I have a bunch of bows literally all around my house that have not been shot in, that I don't really feel comfortable giving to people, lest they explode! They do look pretty though!
In future they will be well shot in. 200 should be adequate I think.............. :BB (AT) :OK
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I have always thought the 200 arrow mark was a good indicator of a bow being solid still holding it's tiller I spent last winter with my limited time meticulously making a lever osage bow checked the tiller many times with others ended up being my fastest bow, shot it about 225 arrows threw it & dressed it up real nice I decided to shoot the 3d course with it & on shot maybe 320 the bow rings delaminated at a undulation so now I go to 500 shots before I call a bow done or dress it up ! I also shoot the bow along the way to a shorter draw when I get the bow tiller close .
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All the bows I've ever made that want to blow up, do so, like you said, after a hundred + arrows....or just a frustrating inch or so from final tiller on the tree. Why can't they just blow up early and save me some already dissipating hair?
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i usually start me finish work at 20" of tiller, sanding and smoothing out any tool marks... than at 24" tiller i will start 1/4 draw shooting and half draw shootin and touching up any tweaks, sanding as i go... so by time i get to full draw and start shootin in all my final sanding is done.. of course there's always a lil more to do.. after 150-200 shots than i start to seal it up... granted i made an osage bow last year at elm hall that i thought was done even shot the course a couple times.. took it home shot some more, added snake skins tip overlays, finished it up...a couple days go by i take it out to shoot and take pics and top limd took a weird hinge outta nowhere, now it s hanging up lookin pretty... so i dont know
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I don't count specific shots. But, I do try to shoot them several times before I consider sealing it. Id guess 100 shots is probably close.
Mike I think the humidity at last years Marshall is what messed your osage bow up. It was just too dang "wet" last year.
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I don't know if it's right but, I do a lot like Mike. My draw is really about 24 3/4". For my bows I try to start shooting and using tree both at about 21". I normally exercise on tree to my expected weight and watch bend closely. If all looks good at 21" I start short drawing to see how it feels. From there I continue this process until I get to full draw. For some with a longer draw it's basically the same but I go a bit past their draw on tree and I have them draw bow for me and I watch bend and video it. I like shooting as much or more than building them and most don't get skins for awhile until I've shot them a quite a bit. Probably 200 or more shots but that's mostly just cause I like shooting them. I agree with Pearl that humidity can mess with your bow. It also seems like I see things in pictures I don't see with naked eyes, and see things with naked eye I don't see in pictures. Right or wrong usually I trust my eyes more than pictures, but I could be all wrong. Just what seems to work for me.
Bjrogg
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I shoot mine for quite a while before applying a finish. I do the final stages of work with scrapers, so tool marks aren't an issue. I won't put a handle wrap on until after the finish is good and dry and I have put well over 200 arrows through it.
Kyle
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Has anyone noticed if there is a difference between shooting 200 times or drawing the bow 200 times on the tree? Does the slamming home cause more stress than the slower draw and let down on the tree?
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I believe shooting is a better way to break a bow in rather than drawing it only.
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There would be no vibration and shock with drawing only. I think vibration would be a big factor in lifting a splinter.
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I thought this was kinda interesting picture. You can see string isn't straight, it must be vibration. I believe that there are different stresses shooting then just drawing bow. Kinda like a sky diving accident. It's not the fall but the sudden stop. I would guess there is also stress involved in getting the arrow started moving.
Bjrogg
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Nowadays I actually do the same as many of you, getting the bulk of my sanding done during tillering. Anymore I sand the back and sides of the bow around the time I brace it for the first time. This has the benefit of not losing extra pounds after you're done tillering and shooting in, as sometimes happens to our surprise. So by the end of shooting in I shape the tips, the handle, do one more pass of sanding, then finish it up.
High Desert, I think there is definitely a big difference between pulling it on the tree a bunch of times and shooting it. For sure. Using the bow I mentioned in the original post, I could have probably drawn that bow a thousand times and it would have been fine. And actually that was one of the weird things about the break to me. Being a tension "break" on the back, I would have expected it to lift as I was pulling it. But the "crack!" noise actually happened after releasing. The arrow was gone and there was a "crack!" and I was really confused.
I'm sure that some of you guys with more experience can abbreviate this process. After doing it perhaps hundreds of times, I can see how recognizing patterns and getting the process down solid will help and you might not need to shoot it as long. I can also see some circumstances where shooting in a bow just doesn't make sense. Let's say someone commissions you to do a warbow and you can't/don't want to shoot a ~100# bow 200 times. Or maybe a flight bow. The whole point of a flight bow is to get the maximum performance out of it, so if you know the design is pushing the limits, you're just breaking down the wood for no good reason.
But for every other bow that's intended purpose is to be a hunting or target bow, I think you want that thing to be rock solid, and I think the only way to know that for sure is by shooting it a bunch of times.
I guess I've just seen a few too many bows on here and other places that just seem to be a little implausible. And that's where I feel like the bowyer is kind of pulling a fast one on the recipient. "Yep, shot it through a chrono 10 times and that thing is fast!" Even though you can tell it's overstrained/underbuilt and will take a bunch of set later on down the road.
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Usually I can tell through the tillering process how my wood is reacting to set.I for one shoot it always close to 200 times before putting finish on it but while shooting it in it is already finalized sanding.As far as through the chronograph there is always fresh speed and broke in speed.The difference between the two is'nt all that much that concerns me.I usually test bows that are broke in though if I make one that shows me to be curious about.Longer stringing times while shooting it in help the bow to reveal it's true tiller for me.As everyone on here has said though we've all had those unplanned surprises happen.
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I usually keep one hanging around for a few weeks after I have them the way I want them, shooting them from time to time and just stringing and un stringing them and leaving them braces for an hour here and there. Maybe not 100 shots, never counted but several over a period of time. I am hardly ever in a big hurry to put the finishing touches on one. ;)
Pappy
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probably not a exact amount that works,,shooting the bow does seem to put a different stress on the bow, and I start shooting mine at about 20 inches as I tiller it out,, so have shot it quite a bit by the time I get to final draw length,, depends on the wood and design 200 arrows may not reveal the final unbraced profile of the bow,, or it might,, thats the thing about wood bows,,, it just depends,, on alot of factors ,, length of hold,, moisture content etc etc etc,,
but I agree if it is not broke after several 100 shots and the tiller is not shifting,,, probably ok,,,
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Like Brad said!
I leave mine braced over night and then go like Brad.
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,, leaving a bow braced does seem to settle it in with very low stress,, with no negative effect on the finished bow,,
my elk hunting bow stays strung from morning till night,, and still shooting good after 20 years,,
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I agree with the extended strung times. I have started letting a new bow sit strung for an hour or so for every 6 or so inches I gain in tiller. When I start shooting, I will shoot a couple three arrows, then let it sit while I tinker with something else. Then another couple arrows, and so on for several sessions. In addition to extended strung time, I make darn sure to draw the bow to whatever draw I am at at least 25 times before analyzing the tiller. Sometimes it takes a bit for the wood to settle in. I am definitely not building bows at warp speed, I like to take my time and let the bow come out of the wood.
Kyle
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I thought this was kinda interesting picture. You can see string isn't straight, it must be vibration. I believe that there are different stresses shooting then just drawing bow. Kinda like a sky diving accident. It's not the fall but the sudden stop. I would guess there is also stress involved in getting the arrow started moving.
Bjrogg
It's most likely an artefact of the line scan of the camera.
Be very wary of digital photos of fast moving stuff, unless it's a high speed camera. We all know there is string vibration, but you see some really weird digital shots.
Any viration is mostlikely to be a smooth oscillation like in a guitar string, not a sharp discontinuity.
Del
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Del I'm sure you are right. I was really surprised this picture was even captured clear enough to see string and arrow on my phone. I'm sure there is a massive amount of distortion, just thought it was a interesting picture.
Bjrogg