Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: bradsmith2010 on October 14, 2017, 01:29:36 pm
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I went deer hunting last week, I did not get a deer but got some peace of mind,,
and thought alot about bow design and what is effective in given hunting situations,,
I will post photos and put my thoughts together about some of the bows I like to use and why,,,
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more photos,,
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the dark bow is on its first hunt,, just tillered a few days before I left, still has rasp marks and needs a bit of finish work but shoots just great,,
the other bow I made with Jim Hamm more than 25 years ago,,and killed my first primitive buck about that long ago with that bow,, I shot a red fox the same year,, tracked both critters with my dog and 4 year old daughter at that time,, I was shocked when she found the first blood,, :0
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Nice pics... Texas has aleays been on my list
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Nice pic's and story Brad. I've hunted Texas twice but with a gun. Before my tradition bow days.
DBar
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I was thinking bout you guys when I took my camera,, I normally just concentrate on shooting ,,, it was fun,, but it does add another level of challenge to the hunting,, when deer come by and you are holding the camera,, makes it difficult to make meat,,, :)
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ok, here are some of my thoughts on bow length,,
the longer I have made bows,, the more I realize for me there is not one bow that fits all,,,
hunting has been my main focus ,, even in bow making for the last 30 years,,
as I study the Native designs,, they become more and more my preference
the shorter the bow,, is easier hunt with,, there is a diminishing return in accuracy that forces me to stay a bit longer,, but I wonder if that would be the case if I had been shooting a shorter bow for the last 50 years,,,
the longer bows are more stable or forgiving,, but if you are hiding in a brush pile,, the longer bow can be more difficult to shoot,, tick the top limp on a twig when a deer is 10 yards to you and the game is over,,
what good is long range accuracy if you cant execute a 10 yard shot,,, and what good is getting off the shot if its not accurate out of the short bow,, so there has to be a middle ground each one of us woud have,,
so I say the shortest bow you can shoot accurately to 15 yards is gonna give you the most opportunity,, also i am taking into consideration ,, that long range accuracy is not effective on white tails any way,,, after 20 yards they can move so much that accuracy can be a mute point,,so the closer range shot is gonna have a higher percentage of success,, and the closer range shot allows for the shorter bow to be used,,,,
I had hunted elk this year with a 66 inch osage bow, and in the mountain terrain it seemed fine,, but when I took it to Texas, ,the brush there made it difficult to get to full draw,, so I went to a shorter bow and was more comfortable,,
I did get a 10 yard shot and got my 60 inch bow drawn but the buck I did not see behind me exploded and blew the shot for me,, but I did sit and think a long time on what kind of bow worked best,, and why so many Native bows were short,, even before the horse,,
my goal for next year is to shoot even a shorter bow and shorter arrow to reduce the amount of movenment and amount of time it takes to execute my shot,,,, maybe a 44 inch bow drawn to 22 or 23,,, if I can obtain accuracy to 15 yards I am confident with,,,, that is what I want to try,,,,
I will not stop practicing my regular hitting an anchor form,, as I enjoy stump shooting out to 60 yards and that seems to be most accurate for me at long range,,,,but for my deer hunting I am going to adopt more and more of the Native style shooting,, and eventually would like to use a pinch grip,, thanks for listneing''' all comments welcome,, B
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Great topic. Recently, I read "Become the Arrow," by Ferguson. Using his suggestions on form, draw length for me is 28.25 or so, way longer than I have used in the past. But this necessitates bendy handle bows, for the reasons you shared, primarily brush blind use. I had a hickory bow that developed extreme set pulling to 28 plus. As I was in Missouri, on a hunt trip, I had only one other bow ready, a recurve. which was easier to use in the terrain of BK Leach Conservation Area. Ferguson's advice makes me more accurate; string hand arm goes over the arch of the foot, expanding my draw.
My friend got the possible shot on a buck at 16 yards, but the buck was not 4 pts on one side, so he could not harvest the deer in that county He shoots compound, way easier to hide in the brush. I was with him when that buck came in, and tried to imagine drawing a long bow, or the recurve, 58", even at an extreme cant. The photo shows another hasty blind, in shorter brush, and my recurve, and the need to cant. Two years ago, I could not draw a 68 inch bow without being seen in marsh grasses and in forest.
I am thinking the Native Americans were onto something. I am re-reading J. Hamm's edition on Eastern Tribe bows, and even if the Natives were some times shorter, those still are often shorter bows! I think the 60 inch bow you had is short, and I am hesitant to drop back down to shorter draw as I am not yet consistently accurate beyond 15 yds, and I live out west. This issue is the one I find most intriguing in primitive bow hunting.
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Brad I've been thinking along the same lines you've just laid out here. I have yet to make this type of bow, but could see advantages of hunting with a short draw and short physical length bow. At least in theory, seeing how I've never actually done it. I remember a different thread you started about draw to weight instead of anchor. It seems to me that getting to full draw length is even more difficult sometimes than dealing with a long bow. I do think the design and style of shooting you are describing would have advantages.
The shortest bow I have ever shot, was at Elm Hall this year. Paulsemp brought his 48" sinew backed osage bendy handle with a sinew string. He let me shoot it along with several other of his bows. I liked that bow a real lot. I only shoot very close range but it felt really good and seemed to have good speed and cast. It's definitely on my must build list now. Of course my normal anchor is quite short. Probably shorter than Clints so that could help, but my draw isn't going to get any longer. Might as well go with it.
Bjrogg
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string hand arm goes over the arch of the foot, expanding my draw.
Can you expand on this a bit? Maybe a misprint?
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Skick Mark,, I started shooting and hunting with Byron 20 years ago and am familiar with his shooting, he basically taught me to shoot,,
yes the longer draw can be an asset to accuracy,, but you will notice when he shoots close range moving targets,, he is not pulling the bow to full draw,, and is achieving extreme accuracy,,, so one can do both with practice,,
I am not suggesting giving up anthing,,, but just being able to shoot a short bow if it would be an advantage in given terrain or situation,,,
the advantage of of having the bow designed to the shorter draw,, is better performace at the shorter draw,, than if you short draw a bow designed for a longer draw,,,both can work ,, the the bow that is shorter in length gonna give you some clearance advantage that might make the difference in getting a shot at all,,
as stated above ,, i did shoot a longer bow for elk,, expecting to shoot out to 30 yards in the mountain terrain,,
one might have to practice more to be proficient with long and short bows ,, but thats part of the fun,,,
also I want to add, I dont think the draw on Native bows was determined exclusively by their physical size,, just the like the English longbowmen that were shorter but had long draw,, I think the preference to draw length was determined by what worked best for its application,, they surely could have draw a bow longer if need be,, just like the English,, and I am sure sometimes for war bows did,,,,
but for getting food I think the shorter draw bow had an advantage in some situations, not all,,
and getting close to the game was not an issue ,,, so close range accuracy for hunting was achievalbe with the shorter bows,,,
I can shoot pretty good at 10 yards,, so I know those guys had no problem with short bow at close range,,
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Great photos.
I am no marksman by any means, but, I have been shooting 3 bows that I've made a lot lately. Two are mid 60", 64" and 66" I think and one is 56". One of the long ones and the 56" one is mid 40lb range and one of the long ones is mid 50's. My accuracy with the little 56" bow consistently outshines my performance with the longer two. I don't have any idea why. All my reading says longer bows = greater accuracy, but that hasn't been my experience lately.
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thats great Morgan,, you get the accuracy and manueverability,, that bow sounds like a hunter for sure,,
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Nice pictures and story.
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thats great Morgan,, you get the accuracy and manueverability,, that bow sounds like a hunter for sure,,
I've actually been expecting that little bow to break at any time since I made it. I did a lot of things wrong with it and learned some from it. I've shot it a bunch and it hasn't broke, so I may finish it out and try to find a pig with it while all the leaves is still on. If you had to pick a length with whitewood that allows a full draw when it presents itself, what would the length be? I already assume you would gravitate towards a D bow.
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what ever your draw is and double that,,leave it wide,,,d bow,, or slightly bend in handle kinda like Ishi,, the d bow or bend in handle bow will allow for a bit shorter bow,,with no backing,, I have seen exceptions, but that design lends itself to a shorter bow,,
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Brad, I have read that you cannot narrow the handle on a D bow, could you narrow it on a bow that bends only slightly in the handle? The D bow that I have is 1 1/4" for most of the length. Hasn't taken any real set but it is long. Any wider, and it'd be very uncomfortable for me. That narrow on a shorter bow would be bad news I think. My favorite bow's limbs is 1 5/8 narrows to around 1 1/4 at the grip and is fairly shallow at the grip. I think it flexes just a very little bit at the handle, I can feel it but can't see it. It has taken zero set after several hundred shots. Both are hackberry. I think a short hackberry with 1 3/4" limbs would survive the stress if it bent a little in the grip, but it'd have to be narrowed down for me. I'm sorry if this is hijacking your thread.
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Bradsmith,
Awesome to get this conversation with someone who trained with B. Ferguson. I noticed today that w/out my Redwing recurve, my draw length returns to about 26". He mentions this will occur. I am liking this fact, because I am with you in that shorter bows can yield shot opportunities with whitetail. Looking over Steve Alley and J. Hamm's book, Encyclopedia of N.A bows, arrows and quivers, I see numerous examples that would easily fit my draw range.
Today, I shot my rigid handle shorty at 23.5", but prefer my bendy handles at 26". Morgan, my bendy handles take set, but are 1 and 3/8 in the handle, just barely. At 26", draw weights are from 37 to 44 lbs.
I like to get close, utilizing concealment. The shorter bows are back in fashion with this hunter.
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Great thread and pics, thanks for sharing!
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Morgan ,, yes you can narrow the handle and have it bend slightly, one of the best examples of this is a bow called 3 toes,, it has a recent thread,, it was actually bending more than twice the draw,, and holdinb reflex and no backing,, you are not hijacking ,, that is what the thread is about,, finding a shorter bow that is accuarate and comfortable to shoot,, either d bow or narrow handle wide bow that bends in handle would work,,, you have to decide what you want, I would make both ,,,, and shoot the one that hits best for me,,,
Sickmark, the 26 inch draw is about like Ishi,, and he had bows say 54 inches,, that would be a very reasonable lengh,,,not too much finger pinch,, 26 is a nice effecient power stroke,, it would make a nice shootier,, check out Ishis bows in Volume 4,,they say he varied his draw depending on what and how far he was shooting,,
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Nice talk here ,! ,,,Halfeye used to talk about short bendy handle bows a lot ,, I need to work a trade for a good short bendy thanks jeffw
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Interesting thread here....
I am very weak of knowledge in this field even though I have shot bows my whole life. From what I have read I am curious if a bow drawing 23 inches at 50# would shoot as fast as a bow drawing 28 inches at 50#. The arrow if drawn to the broadhead to insure it is getting a full draw at each shot. Aside from accuracy and the need to practice both bows should be delivering the arrows at the same speed??? How about a 15 inch arrow if the bow is tillered to 50# at 15 inches, would it deliver an arrow equally deadly as one 28 inches. What is a too short of an arrow or perhaps better asked, what is too short of a draw since the arrow could be 30 inches long and it only drawn 15 inches to 50#. I think some of the jungle bows for shooting monkeys are drawn short but use extremely long arrows.
Another interesting perspective is shooting a bow that is held directly in front of you and drawing to your face is much shorter that holding the bow to your left and drawing to your face. You can achieve an anchor with a shorter draw shooting straight in front. I think Ishi shot in that method.
Sorry if this is rambling or common knowledge
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interesting thread for sure
I think i'm gonna make a bendy handle with a reduced width only on the arrow side
kinda a minimal arrow pass with only the limited wood support to avoid breaking and twisting
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if the bow is designed to the 23 inch draw,, it will shoot close to a bow drawn 28,,, the 28 inch bow would have to be much longer,, that would be the trade off for a few fps.. the deer would never notice,, like I said earlier,, if you wanted to match the 28 inch draw you might have to go up a bit in poundage,, but for example,, lets say you have 50# self bow that shoots a 500 grain arrow 150 fps,, it follows the string a bit,, it would be very possible to have a bow drawing 50 @ 23 inches shooting 500 grain arrow 160 fps,,, shooting harder than the 28 inch draw bow,, lots of variables,,,
once you get shorter than 20 inch draw,, I find the arrow speed relative to draw weight goes down,, too much for me,,
probably not going to hit an anchor with the short draw bow,,,
the South American bows and arrows are probably designed to suite the materials they have there and humid conditions,,,
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https://youtu.be/2ltS10D3st0
this is me shooting a short osage bow,, at a rolled up piece of paper,, I didnt make the shot,, but you can see the short bow is plenty accurate,,
I am shooting sitting down, cause I was getting ready for a turkey hunt where I knew I would be sitting on a bucket,, I went on that hunt,, and got a shot with that bow,, and just blew it bad,, well I gonna try agin this coming april,,,i wanted to add,, its more about the shooter,, not the bow,,
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Brad,
Have roughed out an Ishi style bow these last few days, as per your suggestion. It is time to make that style. the bow is hickory, with "ok" ratio of early to late growth. In your experience, can a bow like that handle draw weights around 56-64? I will back it with either deer rawhide or linen cloth (most likely rawhide. The backing is to protect the bow from the angular rocks that are Arizona's soil. I have been known to low crawl on deer). What is your experience?
Lately, been thinking of upping the poundage. "Advantages of higher draw weight" on tradgang got me thinking. Especially up close, a more powerful bow up your chances if the deer moves. I can easily shoot 50 pound draw, which feels like holding 42 or so. Archer elbow/tendon healed up, and I simply shoot less, but with much more mindfulness. Another plus would be that sanding down mulefat shots into shafts would be easier.
I am building it a bit long, 56ttt and 58, nock to nock. I can average about 26 draw length, and am building it a bit long as it is a board, not a stave. A stave would be a few inches shorter.
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that sounds like a nice bow,, just make it a bit wider for the heavier weight,, you can always narrow if you need too,,,60ish should be no problem,, just make your fades very gradual,,I like to back my bows as well,,deer goat or thin cowhide,,
this bow is osage about 60 ntn,,,,pulling 59#@ 26,,, it is 1 3/4 at wide part of the limb,, side profile is about 1 inch reflex,,
I am sure the hickory will make a bow less than 2 inches wide,, but I would err on side of wide,,if you can,,,,
I like backing the bows too,, I think on a board bow will add some durability to any run out,, I am not an expert on heat treatinig, but I think a least a light heat treating will add to performance,,and help keep string follow to a minimum,,,that being said,, should shoot great with no heat treating as well,,
shooting with mindfulness is key,, I prefer shooting a heavier bow with lighter arrows for up closse deer hunting,, nothing less than 450 seems good for me,, a 450 grain arrow out of a 65# bow is effective,,
I think rawhhide backing it before you pull to full draw would be a good idea,,