Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: upstatenybowyer on November 29, 2017, 06:54:31 pm
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Hi fellas,
Wanted to run this by ya. I recently finished up this osage bow whose braced profile appears misleading.
Braced, it looks like the bow's gonna bend too much in the top limb, but at full draw the tiller looks good to me. It shoots great.
There's a bit of wonk on that top limb, which I'm assuming accounts for the funny looking braced profile.
Just wondering if you all agree with that assessment or if you have a different idea.
Thanks
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I think the wonk is misleading some but I also think the outer third of the top limb is bending more than the outer third of the bottom limb.
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I didn't see it before, but I think I do now that you mention it Don. It's pulling exactly 50# which is where I wanted it, but I suppose a few scrapes off the bottom third couldn't hurt. Thanks buddy.
I guess that kinda goes with my other post about tiller. Do I sacrifice a few pounds of draw weight for a more perfect tiller, or do I leave it as is, a bit on the positive side?
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Hit the weak spot with heat to stiffen it up, then drop the extra weight gained bu tillering the rest if the limb down some.
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Top tip has a little deflex though, and bottom tip looks a little reflexed.
Hard to say if it's bending more. If it were me I'd probably hit the top outer limb
with some heat to try and match it to the bottom. I bet your braced profile would even
up a bit more. Looks very close though
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when the bow is shooting great, it a judgment call,,
wont hurt to even it a bit,, sometimes I am not willing to sacrifice a few pounds, sometimes I wil do it,,
when do you know its finished,, )P(
I did like sleeks suggestion,,
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I like sleek's suggestion too Brad. Good eye Goat. I'll give it some heat on top and go from there. :)
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For a bow like this perfect tiller is up for debate depending who you talk to. Yes, the top limb may bend a little more but also has a longer knot free top section. If you want to you could get a little more bent towards the tips in between the knots on the bottom.
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I think you balanced it out well between the two, your arrow appears to be drawing straight back. If it shoots good I would go with it.
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I agree with Badger. I'd like to study a few things more closely if I saw it in person, but from what we can see in the pictures, I think it looks ok as is.
For those who think the bottom limb is too strong, or should flex more in the outer third or whatever... study each limb's unbraced profile closely in relation to the plane of the handle area, and then to each other. They're quite different in each instance. There's no good reason to try to make them look the same at brace, or anywhere throughout the draw. This piece of wood, with 'good tiller' SHOULD show the top limb arcing more than the bottom... because it starts off that way. It may look a bit 'weird' or abnormal to us as it bends, but we should resist the wants of our mind's eye for symmetry... or any bias or preconceived notions of how it should look like any other bow.
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For all my opinion is worth I'd have to say I agree with Brad and dances with squirrels. I think this is a tuff one to just look at pictures and look for that perfect bend. I think it looks pretty good from my phone and I can see the unbraced profile in both the braced and full draw. I think you should be able to yet but there's a lot smarter guys than me here so just my 2c.
Bjrogg
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I'm very grateful for all of your observations.
Squirrels, your comment, "we should resist the wants of our mind's eye for symmetry... or any bias or preconceived notions of how it should look like any other bow" is very insightful. I am trying like heck to do that with this one. The tendency to make a bow fit my preconceived notions has led me to removing too much wood on many occasions.
BJ, I can't help but think of that HHB bow you posted a while back that also had a misleading braced profile. I remember you saying something like what Squirrels said above, that you had to pay the most attention to how it looked/felt at full draw rather than braced.
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Lower fade could move just a smidge...Just my 2 cents, looks good..
Don
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Full draw is where it matters! :OK
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If you started out with the limbs equal in reflex/deflex. Then the top limb is deflex because during the tillering process you pulled the bow too far past then the top limb show being weak. Looks like to me the whole top limb is weak or the bottom limb is too strong.
Heat treating may help but I think the best fix is to drop the weight and scrape the bottom to match the top. JIMHO
Oh and it looks like a small hinge is forming about 8 in from your hand on the bottom limb in the full draw.
DBar
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If the top limb was really weak the arrow would be dropping down lower at full draw, its not doing that.
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Bows like this are perfect examples of why we should set our tillering trees up to reveal balance relative to our fulcrums. Imo, balance is better found earlier and more precisely, than gauged afterwards by feel. Guys wonder why the tiller shifts in their new, 'perfectly tillered' bows after they shoot them for a while. Dynamic balance should be found early in every bow, not just those with noticeable differences in their limb shapes. That way, the first time, every time, every new bow you 'feel' in your hand, feels balanced, because it was made that way.
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I thought about mentioning that too, Steve, but didn't because we don't know exactly where he placed the arrow on the string before he drew it. If he happened to nock it high? Then maybe it did drop down some. But if that was the case, the bottom limb would be tipping back toward him as well... which it doesn't appear to be.
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I thought about mentioning that too, Steve, but didn't because we don't know exactly where he placed the arrow on the string before he drew it. If he happened to nock it high? Then maybe it did drop down some. But if that was the case, the bottom limb would be tipping back toward him as well... which it doesn't appear to be.
Yea, I though about that when I posted, I did make a slight assumption that he was knocking level.
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I have faced this situation many a time and most of the time my tillering eye was deceived.
True full draw is what counts...most of the time
I think the braced profile should be better in this case.
Tiller looks very good. But I might be inclined to scrape that top limb to even out the tiller. The top limb seems stronger.
Leave it braced, take a few scrapes, exercise at short pulls, check braced appearance, and check tiller.
Try to sense if the pressure is even on the handles as you draw.
It is always a judgement call. Your call.
Jawge
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George, you said, "I think the braced profile should be better in this case."
What do you mean "be better"?
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Now that I've read a few comments and gone back and looked at the unbraced picture I'm a little unsure. I can see what Goat is saying but the bottom limb still looks stiff, just not as much.
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what I do with bows like this is to draw a series of straight lines on the sides of the bow. when the bow is bent, these straight lines can be directly measured with a sort of "tillering gizmo".
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what I do,,, is shoot it,, if its perfect arrow flight,,and the bow is not taking any more set,, or is stable ,, no hand shock,, then is more tiller necessary and why,, ??? if the bow is not taking set,, then to " Even" the stres would not be necessary,, now that being said, I have treid to make great" better" before as well,,,
ok I will add if I shoot it through the chrono,, and its a dog,, then I will re tiller no matter what it looks like,, or how good the arrow flight,,
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Well stated brad.
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DWS,
The limb on the left appears stiff in the braced photo and, I assume that's the upper limb, and it appears a bit stiff.
I would attempt to bring the left limb in the braced photo to be slightly weaker.
It may not become picture perfect and I understand that at times the braced does not tell the whole story but it can be a bit better appearing.
Again I know that braced does not often equal the whole story. For example, if the limbs are twisted but that is another situation.
Often times, making a self bow is a balancing act.
Anyway, what do I know if everyone is happy and it shoots well, it will do.
What do I know.
Jawge
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George, I think the upper limb is on the right. I could be wrong, but I think that dot to the right of the handle may be the strike plate, and that seems to be the way he's holding it in the full draw pic?
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DWS, I think you may be right. I stand corrected. It's fine. Apologies tendered.
Jawge
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None needed, pal. It's all good. We'll figure this stuff out together.
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Jawge,, I see your point,, in every bow, I think the tiller could be a bit better,,,sometimes I get a bit lazy (-S
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Holy smokes, it's been a heck of a day at work and it's a real treat to come home and see all of these thoughtful comments. :)
It's a tricky little devil this bow. Unfortunately, I have yet to really go out and put lots of arrows through it. I think Brad makes a really great point about shooting for a while and observing the results, so perhaps I'll do that before taking any drastic action.
Badger and Squirrels, I paid a lot of attention to the arrow being nocked evenly so I'm pretty confident it's not placed high.
Jawge and Squirrels the top limb is on the right in the braced pic. ;)
Thanks again ya'll for adding your 2 cents.
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The way it looks to me Jeff is it took some looking to find the bow you did in there. Good job that one was hiding pretty good.👍
Bjrogg
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I agree. I think you did a really good job on a challenging piece. I'm interested to hear how she does.
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I added a cent only. 😄
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I'm jumping in this a little late but noticed from the full draw and side profile it looks like the lower limb has one more knot then the upper limb which would make it stiffer. Full draw looks good to me. Just my opinion I'd leave it alone.
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Well, thanks for the encouragement gents. I must say, as appreciative as I am of all your observations, you guys certainly confused the heck out of me! (W In a good way though. ;)
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yes we confuse ourselves sometimes,, especially the old farts,, (--)
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I'm jumping in this a little late but noticed from the full draw and side profile it looks like the lower limb has one more knot then the upper limb which would make it stiffer. Full draw looks good to me. Just my opinion I'd leave it alone.
I agree with Mullet on this one.... knot sections will always see to appear stiff... Looks great !!