Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Marc St Louis on January 02, 2018, 12:08:35 pm
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I started this bow last Summer then put it aside to focus on other things till a couple weeks ago when I pulled it off the shelf and started tillering it :BB. I'm not terribly fond of Buckthorn for self-bows, I've had a few fail, but it is something else when backed. I started out with billets and steam bent the recurves then used dry heat to reflex the limbs, didn't heat-treat though. I glued the billets together and then glued in 5" of reflex into the bow of which it kept 3". The end result is impressive and string tension is quite high. The limbs are just over 1 1/4" tapering to 3/8" tips and have a shallow D section. The bow is 65" long, I could have made it shorter, and it pulls 53# @ 28". I shot it several times in my shop using 520 grain arrows and it is very fast (SH), probably one of the fastest bows I've ever made. I was going to chrono it but the lighting is not the best, although I may try and set some lighting up later on. Very tricky shooting it indoors as it seems to want to drive the arrows through whatever I put in front of it and I can't afford holes in my door, not with -30 degree temps outside (S). Here's some pics
(https://i.imgur.com/PG6A9oW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BDPNZue.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VL72axr.jpg)
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It certainly looks ::) fast :). Well it looks gorgeous too :)
Del
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I love the bend you get Mark, love a maple backer too all in all, I love it😃
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Marc, those are just about the sweetest looking profiles I've ever seen. If I was a betting man, I'd say it at least shoots in the high 170s, approaching, if not breaking 180.
Make way for the king of the bend! )P(
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Welcome to the wonderful world of buckthorn. Id take a stack of it if I could find any. Nice bow, Marc.
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Beautiful bow,great shape,and awesome tiller...it has it all.
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That looks great and remarkably clean for Buckthorn.
I've never used a piece yet but I've cut a lot of it and the wood just looks like good bow wood.
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That bow looks like a Marc bow... :) and that's a good thing! Happy holidays my friend. I have never even seen a buckthorn bow, not even at MoJam. (-S
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One of my favorites of yours Mark, that would make a killer flight bow.
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Thanks guys
The elasticity of Buckthorn is very high. I would certainly classify it above HHB and it's probably even better than Osage.
Marc, those are just about the sweetest looking profiles I've ever seen. If I was a betting man, I'd say it at least shoots in the high 170s, approaching, if not breaking 180.
I sent a bow of this design to Steve for testing many years ago, it was Ash backed HHB. He was getting just under 190 fps with it and I'm sure this bow can easily get that
As I said though, I'm no longer interested in making self-bows out of the wood but it would probably be great sinew backed.
I would love to have a stack of it as well Chris, fortunately I do have enough for at least a dozen bows like this.
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I can't believe the consistent tiller profiles on your bows regardless of the materials used - I'm humbled every time I see one.
Would buckthorn be growing in central NY state? We have what locals call"thorn apple" that has small orange fruit and nasty 2" thorns.
Another beauty.
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I did some quick research and have seen several of these Buckthorns in our local woods. This will give me incentive to grab my pruning saw and take a hike!
Man, that's a sweet looking bow!
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That is another stunner! Glad you post more bows lately because I can't get enough of seeing them.
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Sorry if I appear to be a bit slow, it's because I am :-) . If I read it right, you pre-formed the reflex and recurve bends in the buckthorn, then glued them together with deflex at the handle then glued in additional reflex when you added the backing? So was the backing strip all of one piece or also two billets, and (maybe pushing my luck) what is the thickness, mid limb, of the buckthorn and maple? Finally, did you pre bend the recurves in the maple before glue-up? Really love the bow, will add it to my list of one-days...
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Great bow, as usual.
Looks very fast, low stack. I would like to shoot a bow like that one day, even better, make one.
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I have always thought sugar maple has more potential for backings than previously given credit for. Perhaps the same for the elasticity of buckthorn?
Nice bow, Marc. excellent craftsmanship.
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First nice bow! I have never worked buckthorn, but it looks soooo close to Cascara I wonder the difference.(SG) Cascara is much better decrowned and backed, than it is self bow material as well. The color is almost identical!
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Thanks guys
Buckthorn is considered an invasive species, it can invade my property anytime :OK
Yes I added some refex with dry-heat and glued-in more with the backing. I find that when I heat some reflex into the limbs before glue-up then there is a lot less spring-back taking the bow off the form. The backing was one piece but I have used a 2 piece backing before, doesn't make any difference really. The backing is 1/8" thick at center with a slight thickness taper to the tips. The Buckthorn was more than 1/2" thick when I glued the bow up but I could have started with considerably less thickness, the Buckthorn is less than 3/8" thick mid-limb. I do pre-bend the backing at the recurves and at the handle.
Cascara and Buckthorn are in the same species. Cascara (Rhamnus purshiana) and Common Buckthorn (Rhamnus cathartica)
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I can't believe the consistent tiller profiles on your bows regardless of the materials used - I'm humbled every time I see one.
Would buckthorn be growing in central NY state? We have what locals call"thorn apple" that has small orange fruit and nasty 2" thorns.
Another beauty.
Buckthorn seems to be everywhere in our region. " Thornapple"is hawthorne. Often it might be an invasive as well but it's not the same species.
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Marc, those are just about the sweetest looking profiles I've ever seen. If I was a betting man, I'd say it at least shoots in the high 170s, approaching, if not breaking 180.
I sent a bow of this design to Steve for testing many years ago, it was Ash backed HHB. He was getting just under 190 fps with it and I'm sure this bow can easily get that
As I said though, I'm no longer interested in making self-bows out of the wood but it would probably be great sinew backed.
I would love to have a stack of it as well Chris, fortunately I do have enough for at least a dozen bows like this.
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Okay, my bets are on it breaking 200 then! I love your bows Marc. One day I'm gonna buy one from ya!
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Beautiful work as always, Marc!
If you come across buckthorn, what do you look for as far as making a backed bow go? As you mentioned, buckthorn is an invasive species and I know, in particular, the Minnesota DNR advocates for the removal of buckthorn whenever its found. As I like to do my part to preserve the native woodlands and bogs, I try to what I can. So, if I do go out to look for stray buckthorn, it would be nice to save a piece or two from the burn like.
;D
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Very nice !!
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Well 200 might be a bit too optimistic.
It's tough to find a decent stave of Buckthorn but a little bit easier to find a 3' long piece that's clear of branches and big enough. It doesn't grow around here but there are plenty in the Ottawa area and whenever I am there I spend as much time in the bush as I can. I do happen to know where there is a 6" diameter tree that's straight with 6' of pretty well branch free growth, unfortunately it's in a sensitive area. Lovely tree though
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Okay, 195 then. :)
Buckthorn is everywhere around Rochester and people will pay you to cut it down. I'll make it a point to collect a bunch and post it on the trading post when I get the chance.
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Just be mindful for state laws when it comes to invasive species. For example, in Minnesota, it's illegal to transport invasive species into the state. I'm not sure if a stave would be of worry, but I know they stress over firewood and there isn't a super huge difference between firewood and staves. I also don't know if the shipper would need to worry... And I might be making a big stink out of nothing, but it's something to mull over.
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Just be mindful for state laws when it comes to invasive species. For example, in Minnesota, it's illegal to transport invasive species into the state. I'm not sure if a stave would be of worry, but I know they stress over firewood and there isn't a super huge difference between firewood and staves. I also don't know if the shipper would need to worry... And I might be making a big stink out of nothing, but it's something to mull over.
Good points to consider ty )W(
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Many states, Wisconsin included, not only allow, but encourage the removal of invasive species from public lands including parks with no permit required. Just google invasive species DNR for your state and you’ll find a lot info.
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Another beauty Marc. Beautiful tiller and finish work. :)
Pappy
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Hi Marc,
This is a gorgeous bow with an exceptional tiller and profile and beautiful finish. I concur with the rest of the gang here, that this must be an incredibly fast bow. I think this has bow of the month potential!
Love your work,
Phil
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Marc, excellent bow! Congratulations!
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Real nice, Marc! Something for us newbies to "shoot" for!
Hawkdancer
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Marc, I am incredibly impressed with that bow and your work in general.
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Thank you all
Anyone can make bows like this, it's all in the details ;D
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Anybody might be able to Marc, but your the one who does. You really do have that attention to detail and eye for a fantastic tiller. Another beautiful bend. Like Leonwood said glad to see you posting some bows here I always enjoy looking at them.
Bjrogg
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Yes, nice bow Marc. Bet theres alot of details need paying attention to.
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One of your fastest to date...that's saying something. Certainly is an interesting wood combination. Well done, Marc.
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Beautiful bow Marc, Your work continues to be an inspiration! Cheers, SS
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Beautiful bow! I’m going to have to try one of those style recurve someday. Every time you post one it makes me want one and I can’t help but to admire the curves. I’m curious to hear the speed numbers when you can test it.
Kyle
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Thanks guys.
I love Buckthorn and wish I had more of it, but then I don't make as many bows as I used to so what I have will probably last me till I can't make bows anymore. It is interesting that a wood that is so elastic can have such a high compression strength
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Beautiful bow! Love the color contrast too. I've been inspired by a few bows you have made of this design and tried my first of hickory. I was a little careless and put a crack in the handle deflexing. I'll try again soon. Thanks for posting
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I think I'm in love! she is a real beauty.
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Thanks guys
Buckthorn is considered an invasive species, it can invade my property anytime :OK
Yes I added some refex with dry-heat and glued-in more with the backing. I find that when I heat some reflex into the limbs before glue-up then there is a lot less spring-back taking the bow off the form. The backing was one piece but I have used a 2 piece backing before, doesn't make any difference really. The backing is 1/8" thick at center with a slight thickness taper to the tips. The Buckthorn was more than 1/2" thick when I glued the bow up but I could have started with considerably less thickness, the Buckthorn is less than 3/8" thick mid-limb. I do pre-bend the backing at the recurves and at the handle.
Cascara and Buckthorn are in the same species. Cascara (Rhamnus purshiana) and Common Buckthorn (Rhamnus cathartica)
Yes, I realized that, and always wondered the difference in characteristics. Cascara, has the feel of ERC, and Yew combined(working it). I call it cheap Yew.
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I remember you talking about Cascara many years ago Brian, seems you were quite taken with the wood. I don't remember if you ever posted a bow made from it though
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1 or 2 Bows I believe, one with silk, one with hickory. I gave one away to a friend. the other I still have they are almost Identical. I pushed my luck using fiddle back hickory on the bow I gave away, warning of the possibilities. No problems yet. I don't post much, I guess I should.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,34108.msg449640.html#msg449640
The one with silk..
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Beautiful bow. The lines are incredible.
I just don't understand why you are making that cut in shelfs.
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Brian had fixed my up with a couple of staves several years ago . I remember the wood being very fast but not reliable in tension. My bows were self bows slight r/d.
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Brian had fixed my up with a couple of staves several years ago . I remember the wood being very fast but not reliable in tension. My bows were self bows slight r/d.
Did either make it Badger? One nick on the back, and pow. Backing is the way to go. It sounds like Marc came to the same conclusion with their Buckthorn.
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Brian had fixed my up with a couple of staves several years ago . I remember the wood being very fast but not reliable in tension. My bows were self bows slight r/d.
Did either make it Badger? One nick on the back, and pow. Backing is the way to go. It sounds like Marc came to the same conclusion with their Buckthorn.
Brian, I know one of them I shot for a while and it was a great shooter. But I don't think it made it over a couple hundred shots. I still think it would be ok for someone who uses more limb than I use. I tend to keep bows stiff out of the fades and stiff in the outer limbs. I have backed off of that some in recent years
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I generally overbuild mine, but with such a light wood I don't see a issue. Marcs has taken an extreme (for what I thought Buckthorn is capable of) I have wondered about a Maple, Buckthorn, Yew combo. Just for kicks. Sure could conserve hard to obtain clean Yew lumber.
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Beautiful bow. The lines are incredible.
I just don't understand why you are making that cut in shelfs.
I don't use a cut in shelf
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You're right, Marc. It's my poor English.
I meant the arrow curve, to get more near center.
Do you like to shoot stiffer arrows?
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I like having the choice of shooting a variety of different spined arrows. Also if by chance I send this bow off to someone then the person that gets it will not have to be so picky about the spine of their arrows, or the type of arrows they use
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I'm curious why you didn't heat treat the buckthorn?
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I'm curious why you didn't heat treat the buckthorn?
Buckthorn is a relatively new species for me as it doesn't grow up here and I always make my first few bows without heat-treating just to see what it is capable of, whether it is a new species or a new cut of a species I know. Heat-treating is coming but not in a self-bow. It will probably help some but the wood is really quite good on its own, it's much like high grade Yew in compression.