Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: JWMALONE on January 25, 2018, 07:14:09 pm
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Hello Guys. So I have this perfect hickory stave I got from Pat, he only lives 4 hours away so I cant screw it up. Its 65 inches long and I want an Eastern Woodland style bow, its in there just gota get it out. Ive never worked a stave before so this is what I've done so far. I found dead center length and width on the back, marked it then put a plumb bob and line on there and marked a line down the center. From that line I measured out to the edges and marked two lines making it 1 3/4 inches wide. Then clamped it down and used a hand plane to square up the sides. Next I used a tri square to mark a line one inch up from the back down both sides. Took the handle area down to 1 3/8 with mallet chisel and a rasp. next move is to take the rest of the belly down to the one inch line. This will leave me a fairly square stave 1 3/4 inches wide and one inches thick, handle area being 1 3/8 thick. Now those dimensions are way thicker and wider than finished dimensions but gives me plenty of room for errors. I done it this way to insure that I know exactly how much wood is between the back and belly. Finished dimensions should be some were around 1 1/4-3/8 wide tapering to 3/4ish tips with diamond nocks. 3/4ish thick in handle tapering to what ever at the tip. Shooting for#55@28 Am I on the right track here guys? How would you proceed?
(http://i.imgur.com/RBzgt5sl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/RBzgt5s)
(http://i.imgur.com/8LdOVQtl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/8LdOVQt)
(http://i.imgur.com/UvHwKH9l.jpg) (https://imgur.com/UvHwKH9)
(http://i.imgur.com/2C4EUBIl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/2C4EUBI)
(http://i.imgur.com/jNAR1zul.jpg) (https://imgur.com/jNAR1zu)
(http://i.imgur.com/a30XUVdl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/a30XUVd)
(http://i.imgur.com/3fbFLATl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/3fbFLAT)
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I like to keep hickory min of 1.75" wide. 1.5" is getting on the narrow side for hickory. Hickory likes to take a lot of set if not dried to around 6% as well. but, if that is what you have build a bow out of it. Sometimes we mistake optimum stave dimensions for necessities and overlook some wood because its not "perfect". Looking forward to seeing what you create.
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I like to keep hickory min of 1.75" wide. 1.5" is getting on the narrow side for hickory.
yes, I agree if you keep that weight and draw length goal.
reduce either and you can go narrower. most NA bows are not more that 1.25 wide, although the english warbow guys often
go 1.5+, but with a longer bow. allow extra depth at the handle if you decide to narrow it some.
a good reference is
Encyclopedia of Native American Bows, Arrows & Quivers: volume 1, Northeast, southeast, and midwest
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I'd say start working that thickness down and get to floor tillering. If it's gonna be bendy, then if you keep the full length (more of a native warbow), then you can go narrower, but you may want the width either way. Wider and thinner is typically better for whitewoods performance-wise and set-wise, you have to find your balance between authentic NA style and the wood's natural strengths. Getting her bending now I think is a good way to start getting a handle and what to go for.
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Hey Guys, had to work for real today so only had an hour to work o my stave. Got it close to an inch thick along the limb areas and about 1 3/8 in the handle area with a draw knife and a rasp. Width is still 1 3/4 not going to touch that for awhile. Looks like I have plenty of options at this point so I will ponder my next course of action. Feel free to chime in. There is a Creek bow in the TBB2 on page 53 that is hickory, 66 inches long 1 1/8th wide at grip 1 1/16 mid limb and 5/8 at the tips. The thickness would be determined by the stave during the tillering proces of course. But the overall layout sound interesting. What do think?
(http://i.imgur.com/Gy4keXLl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/Gy4keXL)
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JW,
Looks like the perfect candidate for your stave and a new adventure tilllering a bendy with slightly flipped tips...I think the small amount of deflex in the bow may have been string follow, maybe not...Like the diamond nocks...You can follow front profile dimensions, but your limb thickness may vary due to your chosen draw weight as you stated... It's Hickory also and by Native American's who were known to be in Carolina...
Tillering a bendy will be a different journey...You may have done them already...Now you have me really interested Sir...Cool idea :BB
Don
Here's a picture...
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Thanks Don, I'm really excited by this one myself. With an almost parallel shape to mid limb then 5/8 tips its basically an ALB design in a way. Its a d bow not stiff in the handle but pretty close. Less mass in the outer limb area slight recurve, I would think its a darn fine shooter. This will be my first d bow. I found a scrap piece of pine that was 3/4 by 1 1/8 doesn't feel to bad in the hand but I would like to round it off some got to think about that. I'm sure our ancestors didn't shoot bows that were totally uncomfortable. I have anther project today but in between coats of paint might be able to get the stave reduced down a lil more.
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John, start getting her bending but leave the center stiffer for the time being. Post pics as you go.
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Will do Pat. Came in for lunch, hard to work on other stuff with that stave staring at me. Not much time in between coats so figured I clean my shop, never had a mess in there like it is now. Plumb embarrassing it is, or as grandma would say "Scandalous and a Damn Shame it is".
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Got her worked down to 3/4 in the limb area still over an inch in the handle area. Floor tiller is getting closer but not yet. It might bend an 1/8 of an inch if I tried. #255 ?? Be a heck of a war bow.
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Well she is fairly flat and 3/4 at the limbs over an inch in the handle. Maybe start working on profile but leaving a little extra for wiggle room later. It has a tad natural deflex but wont touch that yet. I was reading another post so thinking first low brace or so before trying to heat anything out or in so I can do it all in one shot, whatever "all" is. What do you think so far.
(http://i.imgur.com/llPpaQql.jpg) (https://imgur.com/llPpaQq)
(http://i.imgur.com/jEumSPal.jpg) (https://imgur.com/jEumSPa)
(http://i.imgur.com/qyaJ48Ql.jpg) (https://imgur.com/qyaJ48Q)
(http://i.imgur.com/ixbPL0Pl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/ixbPL0P)
(http://i.imgur.com/5pHi8BJl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/5pHi8BJ)
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Well got the profile cut out. I went 1 1/4 wide mid limb to mid limb and 3/4 to the tips. Still to thick to bend will start that next.
(https://i.imgur.com/1vKwnkcl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EPoVfZDl.jpg)
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Looks good JW...Love Native American replicas...Enjoying this one (-P
Don
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Thanks Don, don't know if it will be a dad ringer , but it will fit the basic description the sketch artist made. If not I will fabricate enough evidence to convince a jury of primitive archers. lol
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Ok guys need to start scraping and floor tillering, I know to leave the handle area stiff and get the limbs bending but were do I start the belly taper? What are some dimensions for a d bow so I can get an idea of how they are tillered. I need a starting point.
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John, I scribe a line say 5/8" down from the back, rasp at an angle to that line making a facet on each side of both limbs then remove the crown, even out the belly and check at floor tiller. If needed I will go down another 1/8", scribe another line and do as before. Once it gets bending nicely I'll go to using just a scraper.
Start at the handle and give it full length scrapes. I usually go 20 scrapes at a time on each limb, check floor tiller then remove more wood. As the limb starts to bend you can concentrate more at mid and the outer portion of the limb. Now is a good time to cut in temporary string nocks and consider a long tiller string so you can start exercising the limbs after wood removal, look over the bending limbs and mark the stiff spots and the areas that are bending so you can adjust tiller. Never pull past desired draw weight on the tiller string while exercising and viewing.
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Thanks Pat. So I leave the handle flat start taper at ends of handle? I made a long string with leather boots a while back. I also left the tips 3/4 so I have room to adjust later, can I cut some temp nocks in it like you did in your ALB build along. These are the diamond shape tips so cut them shallow to start I'm guessing. Ive got a mark on the limbs to follow. I was carefull to keep it in line with any deviations along the back. But its still to stiff for floor tiller. But its going pretty well I think.
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Thar she bends! Not much but she bends. Its still pretty thick say 3/4 out of the handle to 5/8-9/16 at the tip. Handle itself is 7/8. The first time I gave a decent push it only wanted to bend in the handle or fade area actually. So I done a few full length scrapes then worked some starting mid limb area. Now she will bend in an arc, not much of one but I can tell I've got the basics started pretty well. It no longer bends right out of the handle. I'm still not ready for a long string but its getting there. I will see what kinda pics I can get tonight.
Pat I'm going to cut those nocks when I go back out, came in for a late lunch.
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Well its starting to bend, no long string today but tomorrow for sure. Cut some nocks done some scraping. Nocks are kinda rough but ill clean em up tonight.
(https://i.imgur.com/za6MFONl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WHBy6xfl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/HP7WAP8l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rFOsjbal.jpg)
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What are some dimensions for a d bow so I can get an idea of how they are tillered. I need a starting point.
if you got 3/4 at the handle, 3/8 at the tip would be a ballpark finish thickness, maybe just under that.
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Looks good, John. bend, scrape, exercise and look...repeat. ;)
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JW,
Oh Yeaaaaaa, there's the diamonds...Looking good... :BB
Don
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Diamonds in the rough! ;)
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I started going to the long string a lot earlier than I used to a few years ago and it has been working out better for me. I use full target weight on each test draw even when I know the bow is still far too strong. I hate surprises when I find out one area of the limb is already at target bend before the rest of the limb.
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Thanks guys.
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I'm with you Steve. As soon as I am satisfied with floor tiller I go to long string so I can stand back and see the overall bend of the bow and of each limb. I start marking areas that are bending and areas that are not. The sooner you get the limbs bending evenly and together the better chance you have to hit the ultimate draw weight without surprises.
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Well guys didn't get very far, had some other things to attend to today. She is bending a lil more. In the pic I'm probly only pulling 4-5 inches and she's stiff. The pics didn't come out great it looks better on the tree its starting to show signs of an arc. Been working mid limb and out, only 3 scrapes then exercise check repeat and so on. Doing good not to rush. Question, on a stave like this will a gizmo work?
(http://i.imgur.com/gaSKH62l.jpg) (https://imgur.com/gaSKH62)
(https://i.imgur.com/YgfWy3Hl.jpg)
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Question, on a stave like this will a gizmo work?
you bet
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,59376.msg824353.html#msg824353
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Well guys its slow slow slow but that's a good thing. This is what I call zero brace. The string is tight against the handle so that if I lay it down on my bench and pull the string, the tips start to move immediately (.5 inch?). The pics show zero brace and #55 @13. So is that about #85 @28? I'm happy so far.
(https://i.imgur.com/DxD8n9Al.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xhylDC8l.jpg)
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Nice bend started JW, looking good...At sometime during tiller you may have to stop with the gizmo...It will give you a circle tiller if you go all the way...If your looking for slightly elliptical you will have to watch it during final weight...At some point you will need to get those tips flipped a little for that replica...Now is a good time...It will change the look of things for sure...Really like what you are doing so far and being patient is a virtue my friend...
Don
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Thanks Don, I'm short on virtues. I'm remember Mom beating some into me but I seemed to have misplaced most of them.
Yea I was thinking about when to heat treat, I want to treat the belly, flip the tips all in one shot. I'm almost close enough to check for any natural twist that may be there sorta get it all in one shot. That sound right.
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Your bow is not 55# @ 13 " because you are on the long string, it is more like 55# @6" as that is the actual amount the limbs are bending. That is, if you are measuring draw like you have the bow pulled in the picture, long string and all.
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JW,
I would do so know... flip them tips and maybe go back to the long string for a while to see what those flipped tips do to the picture...It will shorten your working limb and give you a different look...the reason I say long string, is bracing at half inch with flipped tips may be difficult...I would move now on heat treating hickory...JMHO...You can always go back and heat "tweak any problems later"...
Don
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Thanks Eric, I understand the principle just don't have the hands on experience yet. I do have a good idea of were I'm at with it, to stiff to brace I'm sure but close.
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John, do you have a regular string made for this bow? Having a tiller string the same length as the bow will give you a better reading.
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Ben it happens to most all of us. I like JW's fades or transitions. I'm glad you got to shoot your bow Ben. I know the feeling and broke my first bow to. I was so glad I got to shoot it though and learned so much from it. I also became hopelessly addicted to this stuff and was determined to make another much better one. The next time I started two just in case. It's a terrible feeling not having a bow to shoot. Now I've got a bunch. My best advice is to learn as much from this one as you can. See where it broke. If it had crystals and was taking set in that spot it probably was bending to much there. Next time start with a little longer stave or board. Try really hard to get all of it bending evenly. If you have access to any trees cut a bunch of staves and start drying them. Those kids bows are great to make. You need to make them bend evenly to and you'll have fun shooting them till you have another for yourself.
Welcome to the addiction
Bjrogg
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Ya lost me bjrogg, I think ya posted on the wrong thread. LOL
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Pat, this is a b-50 Flemish string I made for tillering. The top loop is just a bowline the bottom has a bowyer hitch. Ive been using it on the last few bows, its stretched good. I shot a few arrows with it on that last bow I made. I will make one today but I like to stretch my strings between two trees with ratchet straps for a day. Strings I learned to make as a kid, kinda set in my ways on those, but I'm open to any advice on tillering strings as I'm new to those. I figured a string with the least amount of stretch and the best fit was best?
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John, shorten that string up so it just fits the bow with as little sag as possible. That will give you a better reading than the longer string.
I make all my bow strings with a standard loop in the top and bowyers knot on the bottom, all B-50. My initial tiller string is para cord. Once I start getting some bend I make a string for that bow(slightly long) and use it as the tiller string(shortened to just fit the bow) for that bow then when it's time for low brace I shorten it for that. Using the string like this also helps to pre-stretch it.
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Gotcha Pat, I used a bowline so the top loop is adjustable from bow to bow. I also had to use a stringer to get it on there. Its banjo string tight. I'm going to make a permanent one at lunch time.
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Ya ever feel like an idiot? It just came to me why this bow is still so stiff at this point. Its not a board, its a stave and its crowned on the back. Don't get me wrong I've been taking in to account the contours of the back when marking the sides and removing wood. But I was wondering why this bow being the narrowest I've made to date and at these thickness measurements was still so stiff, there is an extra 1/16 inch of wood in the center. I knew there was a darn good reason to go slow. Good news is, I may be an idiot but I haven't screwed it up.
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Yup sorry wrong thread. Not sure how I did that.
Bjrogg
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Well guys, I got brave enough to brace it at 1.5 inches pulled to maybe 14 inches. Really haven't removed to much wood. I believe I'm at the point now that any major mistake will be catastrophic, until now I had wood to play with. So I will be down shifting from granny gear to congressional speed (yall know how slow that is right) Now that the tips are about as thin as they'll get I touched those up, got a new string for it on the stretcher, And may be doing some heat treating tonight. What do you guys think.
(https://i.imgur.com/5PqZA8Vl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1ohkzopl.jpg)
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JW
knowing when to shift into low, with out spending an eternity on a way too thick section is a skill that does not come easy.
lookin good.
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John, how is the weight and how does the string track down the bow?
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Just getting ready to post Pat. 1.5 brace #55@18 so its #75? String tracks great so far been wathiching for that stuff. But it being so heavy still should I work off a lil more weight or go ahead and heat the tips?
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You are probably closer to 90# right now. Too heavy to brace. I would bring it to about 55# at 23" on the long string before heating it or bracing it anymore. It reads about the same weight on the long string as it does braced if the long string only hangs down a few inches. It will also gain some weight when you reflex the limbs.
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Thanks Badger, I was thinking it was still awful stiff to brace any higher. I will just keep removing weight and check tiller.
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Jw, something I started doing a few years ago that is just a subtle difference. Instead of removing weight I just keep perfecting the tiller, the weight will come off rapidly doing this. Another important thing at this stage is to monitor the condition of your wood very closely. You are pulling it to 55# your target weight every time on the tree. As it starts pulling further and further watch for the limbs starting to take set. They usually won't start taking set until braced but it is still good to keep a close eye on this. If it starts taking set you are probably at your max draw weight for the bow or slightly over. A little set is normal but maybe set your goal for no more than 1". If slight set is taking place over the entire limb the bow might be a tad too heavy, if it starts taking set in one place them get the other places moving more and leave that place alone.
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Hello Guys and Gals. Well I had other things to do today but I have scraped it down to #55@19 inches. I'm only pulling to 18 in the pic. Its still only braced at 1.5 inches. Its starting to take a tad bit of set not much ill add a pic when I go back out. Its like badger mentioned, slight set evenly distributed over the entire length of the limbs. Looks good on the tree but the light or something in that area doesn't take good pics, plus I didn't want to leave pulled that long. What do ya think? Take more weight #55@ 20 something then heat?
Pat, I got that book in the mail today. Really nice reference book, I even found a hard cover autographed by Hamm and Allely for $28, ill keep looking for some of those others.
(https://i.imgur.com/4kpriZFl.jpg)
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John, looks like you could get the outer limbs bending a bit more. That would help relieve the stresses on the mid limb sections.
You'll like the book. Not much reading but lots of pics and measurements...and ideas for future bows.
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Gotcha Pat, I've got to start collecting staves. If I build all the bows I like in this book, I will be able to whoop ass up and down both sides of the little Bighorn. Just gotta find a few thousand Braves.
The bow is bending nice and even, I've been removing wood mostly mid limb and out.
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Well I got it worked down to #55@25 inches, if I don't get the d-bow tiller correct now I'm afraid i wont make weight. Been staring at the pic on page 96 TBB vol4. How does it look.
(https://i.imgur.com/3531Qx2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6zmFqJt.jpg)
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Looks pretty good - you should post a picture of yourself drawing it. If that gives a different look, you still have a bit of room to tweak.
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John, put a few arrows through her at 25" draw. She's looking good though.
Drawing by hand does give a different effect than the static tree draw.
You'll gain a few pounds by tempering the belly and kicking up the tips.
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Lookin real good there jdub! Like Pat said, good time to temper n flip tips. Depending on how deep u temper, you'll see as much as 5-10# increase, esp if you add reflex with the temper. Looking forward to seeing her finished!
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Thanks guys. Pat i got a few arrows through it before it got dark. Seems to shoot pretty good only half draw. I got the tips flipped and heated it good this time, not to put char marks in it but i think I got it good. I did some last night. through all the scraping and tillering I done today it kept 75%. I went back over it just to get the heat down in there. I read one of your post about letting it rehydrate for a couple days then others said they used oil so on and so forth. I oiled it like i did the last one and its still shooting great no issues, might have 800 through it so far. Its coming along great i think.
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Looks even JW...Do you plan on leaving the handle stiff or bend in the handle...Looking forward to seeing the flipped tip profiles...
Don
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Don I want to do a bend in the handle. Never done one so I haven't done much in the handle area. Its 13/16 thick just like the one in the TBB, but that was not intentional its just were it ended up. Lots of people told me they ruined their first attempt at a bendy by taking to much off the handle area in the beginning. So I left it thick, was told I could do that later.
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JW,
That's correct, you can get the handle bending later in the game but it will remove weight rather quickly...It may be fine as is and could start to move at full draw perfectly, depending on your final weight..
Don
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Still not at full draw 26 so far. I turned the bow around in my hand for the two pics. Brace is just under 5 inches.
(https://i.imgur.com/qKoRuUjl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/d6YEwfwl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/c0Kl4Bol.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9beljjQl.jpg)
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John, I think the tiller looks good. If you want the handle area to bend you will loose weight like Don said. Many of my bows in the last few years have flexed in the handle but I only feel a slight flex when I hit full draw. Not sure where your weight is now but if the bow shoots well and close to your desired weight I'd say she's good to go. If you kick the tips you gain a few pounds that you may have to sacrifice to get the handle area to flex.
You've done an excellent job on this bow even though it might come in under weight or with a stiff handle it's still a nice bow with good tiller. It's all about give and take and experience gives you more control over that.
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Pat, after heat and a tip job its still pulling #55 at 26 inches. I thought I would work it on up to full draw to see if the handle bends. At 26 I don't feel any flex but I read somewhere a guy said if you feel it flexing 2 inches before you hit full draw it will most likely kick like a mule. You should feel it bend at or just barely before it hits full draw. So I have a little room to work with still. If I do work it up to full draw it should be #60 or so which is fine with me, should loose some after shooting in. Any were between 55-65 is fine with me but I want the practice hitting target weight. If the bow shoots good I'm not going to jeopardize a good bow to adjust weight a few pounds.
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Looks great to me. Just and a little shiny and you're done.
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Also I usually don't do this but I'm putting a candy apple red paint job and mag wheels on this one.
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Spinners? 8)
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Spinners? 8)
As soon as hell freezes over. When I say mag wheels I'm talking about white 5 point wagon spokes ya use to see on pick up trucks.LOL
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Spinners? 8)
As soon as hell freezes over. When I say mag wheels I'm talking about white 5 point wagon spokes ya use to see on pick up trucks.LOL
Ya can't put wheels on it, we've got rules about that kind of thing ;D ;D
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You've got a point there, DC. ;)
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DC, That's a good one. I didn't think that one through. Sounded bad didn't it.
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JW,
That is an exceptional bend man... 55@26 probably 60@28 with just some exercise... (SH) :-D
Looking forward to full draw and spokes...
Don
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I bet the handle will give just slightly at full draw. Even if not, I think I would leave it. Nice work!
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Well I must say I think I'm hooked on eastern woodland style bows. Need a lil more getting used to but I really like this style. After 250 arrows give or take it pulled #58.8 on the scale. That's two in a row that hit within #3 of target weight that is another success by itself. It does seem to flex just a tad in the handle which freaks me out as I'm not use to a bendy. Hand shock isn't that noticeable just a slight thump I guess you could say, very stable and balanced when drawing and losing otherwise. Needs more tuning with brace height and arrows but shoots way better than I would have thought. No pics yet, she's only half dressed so ill wait till I'm finished putting the lipstick and eyeshadow on her.
Thanks Guys
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JW,
I watched your patient build and I already knew that bow would be nearly dead in the hand...An ever so slightly bend in the handle at full draw as you have will be a smooth shooter...Some people go "beyond a circular tiller" on these and have the handle bending to much, that's where you are introduced to the mule and need a protective mouth piece...The NA knew that these bows were efficient killing machines...The bendy or D bow doesn't get the credit that it should...Your pictures are a fine example of balance between static fulcrum and dynamic fulcrum...
Don
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JW,
I been watching this thread and haven't said anything because Mr. Burchett has been giving you the straight skinny from the get-go. Eastern Woodland bows are my favorite and sort of a "specialty" for a lot of years and yours is a very nice example sir. You should, rightfully so, be proud of it.
That "thump" you feel is mostly because you have a "full" grip on the bow hand. You may not be aware that a common misconception of the NA shooting style is that they drew from the quiver. More often than not the quiver is used for storage while the bow hand served as the magazine. Meaning the hunter would very often have 3-4 "extra" arrows in the bow hand while shooting and re-load the bow from those. I only mention this because it directly affects the "grip". If your bow hand is holding other arrows and the bow you can only grab the bow with the web between the first finger and the thumb and with a "high wrist" (palm of the hand not on the bow) as well.
As evenly tillered as you are it will shoot really smooth with the "open" bow grip.....and no it wont jump out of your hand either. Looks like you not only captured the mechanics of the design but also the essence of the shooting form.
rich
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Half Eye, were have you been my whole life! I knew it!!! I saw exactly what your describing when I was young by an old man at a turkey shoot. But being heavily influenced by people with no knowledge other that what they were taught (the only right way) was discouraged from trying it and never pursued it although I can hold arrows in my hand with a recurve. I hunt with a nocked arrow and one in my bow hand it just feels natural.
I've noticed this bow shoots better with the high wrist. Its a lot different than my recurves.
Can you give some links or book titles so I can research this further, I knew I was right.
Thanks