Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Yellowstave on April 18, 2018, 08:57:17 am

Title: Ring size and speed
Post by: Yellowstave on April 18, 2018, 08:57:17 am
I know that it is said that the ratio between earlywood and latewood is most important. Im wondering if a tight ring chase on the back outperforms a larger ring. Or is it a crapshoot. Just curious. I have a bow im tillering now with a natural D/R with pretty wide rings. But i have another stave that has pretty tight rings. Thanks for yalls answers.

Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 18, 2018, 09:42:19 am
I cant lie, I pay zero attention to ring thickness, early growth and late growth. A clean back on one ring is what I want. If the back is clean the bow is good under it.
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Yellowstave on April 18, 2018, 09:59:30 am
Thats what i do too. Thanks for comment pearl. Im just wondering  if say you had two bows that were tillered the same, same ntn length same everything. The only difference is ring size which one would perform better if at all.
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 18, 2018, 10:29:19 am
That is impossible to know. They can look and draw the same, but there are so many variables that we cant see or feel within the wood. I have said in the past that tight ringed wood seemed to hold its shape slightly better, but there is nothing scientific about it. Just what I felt and seen.
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: bradsmith2010 on April 18, 2018, 10:54:49 am
yes I think either will make a good bow,,
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Yellarwoodfellar on April 18, 2018, 11:01:06 am
I think we are unanimous in thinking both will make fantastic bows. I do feel that the tighter ringed stuff tends to make a snappier bow.  Maybe it's because the more laminations help keep the tension compression plane divided between two rings instead of within one ring. Maybe not.
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Bob Barnes on April 18, 2018, 11:05:27 am
I will save my opinion for when I finish the 2 I'm working on right now.  One has huge rings, but it was a shock to find out how hard it was to chase one.  There is not a real definite white/punky spring growth vs nice dense yellow summer growth...it;'s like a total mix through the entire ring.  ???
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Badger on April 18, 2018, 11:13:39 am
I will save my opinion for when I finish the 2 I'm working on right now.  One has huge rings, but it was a shock to find out how hard it was to chase one.  There is not a real definite white/punky spring growth vs nice dense yellow summer growth...it;'s like a total mix through the entire ring.  ???

   Bob, what state did it come from?
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Badger on April 18, 2018, 11:14:59 am
   Like Pearly I pay zero attention to ring size ratio and everything else, if there is a difference it is small. I think just like any other wood some are denser than others and might need slightly different dimensions.
 
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Yellowstave on April 18, 2018, 11:32:11 am
Awesome.. i appreciate all input guys.
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Bob Barnes on April 18, 2018, 11:41:25 am
Steve, the wide ring stave came from Oklahoma...which was a surprise in itself.  :)
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Yellowstave on April 18, 2018, 11:50:52 am
Wow ive never had rings that thick.. good lookin stave there
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: hoosierf on April 18, 2018, 12:09:20 pm
That stave is crazy..wow.
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: bradsmith2010 on April 18, 2018, 12:09:47 pm
i just made a bow from wide ring,, it seemed a bit sluggish to me, I had over built the bow ,, it had a bit of telling hand shock,
but after reducing the limbs and final tiller, ,a bit of heat treating ,, it shot as good as any bow I have made,, and held a nice unbraced profile,, about one inch of reflex,, I really think its a bout the given tree,, and age of stave as much as anything, yes size of ring is part of that,, but just a small part,,
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Whiskeyjet on April 18, 2018, 12:10:23 pm
You could have chased that back with a chainsaw! Wow!
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Bob Barnes on April 18, 2018, 12:26:58 pm
I would have agreed about the ease of chasing the ring until I started working the stave... you can see that there is a total mix of color and texture in that back... I actually worked on it trying to figure it out and finally went to the next ring down....which was about the same, but at least I knew what to expect.
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Yellarwoodfellar on April 18, 2018, 12:52:31 pm
I have some ultra thin stuff here I'd love to post (30+ per inch!)
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: BowEd on April 18, 2018, 01:34:08 pm
Bob....looks like you got those lunar[moon] rings evident there within the ring in your stave.That is some pretty wide rings though to say the least yet.Cured good time wise it'll make a decent bow.Old rule of thumb says if into strange territory not seen before make it wide enough and long enough for leeway.
Did you debark  it?How thick was the sapwood on that one?
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: paulsemp on April 18, 2018, 02:22:37 pm
Mighty thick rings for Osage. almost looks like the ring structure of Mulberry
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Mo_coon-catcher on April 18, 2018, 02:38:21 pm
I don’t notice any difference.just the look of the wood once finished out. I prefer the thinner rings for a challenge and the neat tight feathering on the belly side. With the 30-60rpi stuff I use a draw knife to get close to where I want to be then use a scraper for the last few rings to clean it up.

Kyle
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Springbuck on April 18, 2018, 10:32:14 pm
You could have chased that back with a chainsaw! Wow!


  Ha ha!  I did that once with elm......ahem..... 

I also once found a freak flat-sawn red oak board that was basically one ring thick.  Or, at least once I finished "chasing" it out and made the bow.  The handle was three rings thick, and the limbs were each basically less than a ring thick. 
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: sleek on April 18, 2018, 11:30:02 pm
I made an elm bow with one ring and a black locust with one ring only. Two worst shooting bows i EVER made. Massive set, and sluggish cast. My fastest always seem to have a high ring count, no matter the wood.
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Yellowstave on April 19, 2018, 07:05:39 am
Sleek, after hearing that, and reading about Tim Baker and his shear force theories, one must wonder about the amount of shear involved in each ring of earlywood. . Therefore, and feel free to correct me if im wrong, the earlywood plays more of a role than we realize in cast.
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 19, 2018, 07:54:07 am
I will leave you with this. Building self bows is very much like spiritual faith. You either believe it and follow it, or you don't. Do I believe early growth plays a role in cast? Nope.  Until a person can build identical self bows it can never be more than opinion. And until we have a way to measure how identical two self bows are, we will never know.  I've seen way too many 2, 3 and 4 ring bows that kicked azz. And I've seen way too many thin ringed bows that sucked.
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Yellowstave on April 19, 2018, 10:02:27 am
Great analogy pearl. I love all the brain fodder.
Title: Re: Ring size and speed
Post by: Springbuck on April 19, 2018, 04:11:39 pm
  That oak one was pretty good, for oak.  I don't think it was ALL that fast, but it gave me low set, and high-ish draw-weight. 

  But, generally, I don't even pay attention to this on most woods, because I'm just happy to have a clean-ish stave worth working, unless I'm looking for a ring to chase.

  I'd be curious to know the answer, but it seems to me that this factor would be way down the list of things that boost performance, below design (incl. choosing the right design for the stave and species), execution of good tillerr using low-set methods, mass placement and control, heat treating, etc....