Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: BowEd on April 29, 2018, 09:26:36 pm
-
So...I have a nice piece of wood ready for sinewing and am going to prepare some 15 to 20 inch elk,horse,and moose leg sinew for it.Normally to prepare 1200 grains worth 3 tendons would be enough for the old tried and true method dry pounding and stripping it.I'm wondering about the latest method stripping it into usable strands after it has been soaked and wet,and with a lot less waste
My thoughts are to soak a couple of tendons in warm water as long as it takes to get them pliable enough to begin stripping.Think I'll use an ice pick for this is my first thought but maybe not necessary.
Have others on here been down this road or method before?
-
After reading that soaking thread I had to try it myself. I pounded them enough just to remove the casing, then soaked in water overnight. I will never pound sinew ever again.
So much easier, way less waste, and way less effort over all. I processed 24 tendons in 4 nights, couple hours a night.
First few I processed about 75% then let dry before completing. The last bunch I just processed wet fully.
-
Cool....Sounds almost too good to be true,but I'll give it a whirl.Would be nice to have a bunch of prepared excess on hand too.I'll report back later.
-
wiz,
does it seem like the softer the easier? or is there a sweet spot for it coming apart, needing some dryness?
-
I pound, and then shred by hand, then I soak the sinew in my water/hide glue mixture for about 30 mins. Then when applying; squeeze out as much as possible and then comb the sinew onto the back of the bow. After that I lay dow a strip of linen over the sinew and then wrap the limb snug with a strip of rubber, down one way and then back again to make sure it’s even:)
-
Willie, is grab 3 or 4 our the bucket and by the time I got to the 4th, it comes apart a little easier, maybe because it’s not so wet and slippery.
Bryce, I believe the question at hand is not so much the method of sinewing, but processing tendons wet versus dried.
-
Yes Bryce I've done it that way many times myself and have had very good results every time.I'm talking preparing the strands without all the pounding and time consuming stripping.
-
i cant find the thread.
could you point me please in the right direction?
the technique is dry the sinew, then soak until pliable, then .... direct stripping?
-
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,62837.msg881601.html#msg881601
-
:OK
-
Yes Bryce I've done it that way many times myself and have had very good results every time.I'm talking preparing the strands without all the pounding and time consuming stripping.
Oooooh gotchyah. Hmm I know I haven’t sinwed as many bows as you. I haven’t run into any issues YET.
Have you ever thought about taking whole clean strips of back sinew. Soaking those in viscous hide glue and laying them down whole. Kinda like sinew tape lol
-
Have you ever thought about taking whole clean strips of back sinew. Soaking those in viscous hide glue and laying them down whole. Kinda like sinew tape lol
I have a piece like that drying right now, without the glue, just to see how much it shrinks.
Ed, if the Native Americans used the sinews fresh from the animal, what would be the purpose of drying (and reconstituting) in this day and age? Why not just put them in the freezer if your bow project is not waiting for sinew when you butcher?
I have also read where Native Americans dried their sinew, but could this be for storage purposes if not being applied to a bow immediately?. Maybe not the preferred way to build a bow?
-
Thanks Pat!I'll get back to this thread to speak my opinion.
Bryce...Yea that's an option to do with the loin sinew.I can see your point.I usually apply sinew tapered in thickness out to the tip as needed for working portions of the limb and crown it most times for reducing mass weight.Might sound tedious but it makes sense to me and I'm a believer leg sinew is better and am accustomed to using it the most.Most don't realize it because they don't reverse brace bows very far when sinewing,but have seen Koreans use it on their bamboo horn bows.
Loin sinew coming as is is harder for me to do that with to get that feature in the beginning.Although I would think it could work well with very long loin strip full length as a final course to not affect my tapering and crowning profile.I find that most loin sinew is rather hard fibrous strings more so than stripped leg sinew too[Soaking in good warm water can remedy that for me].Pat M's method of wrapping and reheating can remedy that too.Good stripped leg sinew becomes rather fluffy like angel hair as is and absorbs the hide glue more readily IMHO.So maybe really loin sinew is just as good really if it absorbed more hide glue IMO.I would think sinew is sinew really myself too.
-
Willie....This is true if all the sinew you use is acquired from animals that we kill.Most times it's not the case.Most sinew I use is boughten and already dried.I like the long leg moose/elk/or horse sinew myself.Of which I don't kill very many of.
Drying sinew does'nt reduce it's power any being reconstituded with water later any more than dried raw hide being made into good brain tan leather.
With the nomadic life style of most native americans I'm sure it was more convenient to dry sinew for a later date to use.Especially if they had more than what they needed at the time.They just had to keep their dogs away from the stuff....lol.
Personally that's what I like about brain tanning and sinewing is that I can do without any electricity to keep my supply on hand.
Just like fleshing and framing coon hides to sell.It does'nt need to take up freezer space.
Although I do think pre freezing deer hides before making them into brain tan leather does help to stress or stretch the fibers more so brain oils can penetrate easier.
Hope I answered your question with my hands on point of view.
-
Really this brings a thought to mind.If a person ever makes hide glue for themselves they will see the dramatic shrinkage that it does spread out in a thin layer to be broken up into granuals for reconstituded use.
If the sinew can absorb the hide glue properly in the right state before being applied to the bow I believe loin or leg sinew is equally as good as each other.
I know there are videos of koreans using loin sinew combing and combing the hide glue into the fibers over and over.This not only keeps the fibers straight which is obvious but also induces the hide glue into the fibers of the sinew.
Hide glue IMHO opinion has super enhancing qualities with sinew making the sinew even more resilient.
-
Just stripped a moose leg sinew after 2 hours of soaking in warm water.It does as advertised.Very easy to pull apart.A little waste but not to extent of doing it dry.I do think like wizardgoat says that any membrane sheath should be removed first.I did that pounding a little while it was dry.It lets the warm water get it soaked quicker.
I'll weigh up the results after it drys.To me it looks like a lot more efficient/faster and easier way to get your sinew strands.A win /win situation.
-
Really this brings a thought to mind.If a person ever makes hide glue for themselves they will see the dramatic shrinkage that it does spread out in a thin layer to be broken up into granuals for reconstituded use.
If the sinew can absorb the hide glue properly in the right state before being applied to the bow I believe loin or leg sinew is equally as good as each other.
I know there are videos of koreans using loin sinew combing and combing the hide glue into the fibers over and over.This not only keeps the fibers straight which is obvious but also induces the hide glue into the fibers of the sinew.
Hide glue IMHO opinion has super enhancing qualities with sinew making the sinew even more resilient.
Ed, I just measured the three grades of glue I used to duplicate he TP test mentioned in the other thread.
weight water:glue ratio shrinkage
379 3:1 10%
251 2.25:1 8.5%
251 5:1 8.5% this mix was twice the recommended water
135 1.25:1 8%
I should note that the three different weights of hide glue, when mixed with the recommended amount of water, had pretty much the same viscosity.
This compares with 17% shrinkage that was reported with knox in the other thread.
I do not know how fair this test is, as the tissue is free to shrink. When glue is bonded to wood, one side is restrained.
I also dried some deer backstrap sinew. the sinew was restrained somewhat, as I suspected that just drying a strand of sinew unrestrained would allow it to shrivel more than it might if it was in matrix with glue. Three different pieces showed very little shrinkage. The pieces were placed between two slats of cedar held together with a few wraps of electrical tape. They were stuck to the wood when the slats were separated, and when free from both pieces, measured 1% shorter than the razor cuts made when the sinew was trimmed wet before the slats were sandwiched. Not a calibrated test by any means, but my impression is that it did not take all that much to prevent shrinkage, so the idea of it being "tensioned" inside a cured matrix seems dubious, and if it is in a matrix with glue that shrinks more, then what does that say about our understanding of the mechanics?
Link to glue specs and info
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=63182.0;attach=139366
-
Thanks Pat!I'll get back to this thread to speak my opinion.
Bryce...Yea that's an option to do with the loin sinew.I can see your point.I usually apply sinew tapered in thickness out to the tip as needed for working portions of the limb and crown it most times for reducing mass weight.Might sound tedious but it makes sense to me and I'm a believer leg sinew is better and am accustomed to using it the most.Most don't realize it because they don't reverse brace bows very far when sinewing,but have seen Koreans use it on their bamboo horn bows.
Loin sinew coming as is is harder for me to do that with to get that feature in the beginning.Although I would think it could work well with very long loin strip full length as a final course to not affect my tapering and crowning profile.I find that most loin sinew is rather hard fibrous strings more so than stripped leg sinew too[Soaking in good warm water can remedy that for me].Pat M's method of wrapping and reheating can remedy that too.Good stripped leg sinew becomes rather fluffy like angel hair as is and absorbs the hide glue more readily IMHO.So maybe really loin sinew is just as good really if it absorbed more hide glue IMO.I would think sinew is sinew really myself too.
I’m a believer in leg sinew for bows as well. Back sinew I use for arrows.
I’ve just always gotten better performance from legs.
Yes, reflexing is definitely a key to a good sinewed now.
A horn bow I have drying has the tips just about touching. I’m gonna let it dry through the summer just to be 100% sure it’s dry through and through. Used a lot of elk sinew.
-
Good testing willie.It's more than I've done.My observations are the glue does a remarkable amount of the work in shinkage with sinew.In fact most of it.Then with the tensile strength of sinew really doing the work in the position that the glue has shrunk it to.Reason why titebond and sinew are'nt near as productive.Protective yes but not productive.
Bryce....Cool about the horn bow.Hope you post it on the horn bow thread when finished.From experience it is best to let them cure.Otherwise more retillering is needed for extra draw weight if you don't want it.If it's close to 3 ounces of sinew or more.I'd let it dry a good 6 months.You were doing an antler bow at one time too I've never seen.Really the only time I've used back strap sinew was when I wanted full length strands on a limb as a last course on a bow.I used cow back strap.26" to 30" long.It worked fine.Buffalo backstrap does too.Used it for wraps quite often myself too.Mostly arrow nocks.
Well I've already got close to 800 grains of sorted sinew stripped and ready in just a couple hours of stripping.Not counting soaking time.1 moose leg and 1 elk leg tendon.I'll finish up tomorrow to 1200 grains with 1 more elk leg tendon.Maybe another hour of stripping time.That might sound like a lot of time but it's a record for me.Normally it would take 3 times that long of time to pound dry and strip to get this much ready.Thing is too it's all nice and evenly thick and grouped to about exact length bundles also.
(https://i.imgur.com/NUCS2yC.jpg)
-
Well it's a done deal.Got 1294 grains divided into lengths and bundle together.6 bundles ranging in length from 16",14",12",10",8",& 6".The first 5 bundles ranging in weight from 215 to 250 grains a piece with the 6th the shortest 100 grains.By the looks of the nice even thickness strands with feathered ends and exact lengths I'm sure I'll be able to do a nice job sinewing.
Just like leaving rawhide in a rawhide state to be brain tanned whenever the time is right so it is with the sinew staying good till I pick the time to sinew the bow.I think Pats' method of preparing sinew is a much easier less time consuming way IMHO.
Modify the post here.....I will put that prepared sinew in a plastic bag till I'm ready to use it too.
(https://i.imgur.com/7nq5K9z.jpg)
The prospective victim for this sinew.
(https://i.imgur.com/5e1OKXV.jpg)
The at least induced profile for the victim.
(https://i.imgur.com/uFP0Hx2.jpg)
-
Looks nice, Ed. Have you used moose before? Just wondering if you see much difference between deer, elk moose, horse, etc.?
Are you applying it soon? A few pics might be nice for some of the new guys that joined the forum this past winter.
-
I'll see.It's been shown before I'm sure though.I usually show something like this on the horn bow thread.Moose/elk/ & horse I like the best.Back strap from buffalo and even cattle produce nice long strands also.It beats the heck out of scrounging around for enough sinew from white tail deer here.Since I don't visit deer processing places.I'm used to butchering my own.
They say there's enough brains in itself to brain tan it's own hide.I wonder if there's enough sinew on a deer to sinew a nice bow.Possibly but I think hardly myself.It all depends on the extreme design a person wants to do I would say.Maybe I make too many sinewed bows too.
-
If I can find a post that I asked this question seems 5- years ago never got an answer. My question was is there a secret to getting sinew stripped thin enough and if I soaked would it allow me to get it as thin as what I felt was required. I did and it did. I pounded the casing off soaked and it can then be stripped soooo much easier and thinner, full length pieces with ease. I dried it on wax paper and bundled according to size. I have yet to use it but it worked to get very uniform pieces.
-
Seems like it's an almost unaminous opinion.
-
Even with the less waste which I know is very evident the waste is still almost as much mass weight wise as the useable portion.Never weighed the waste before dry stripping but makes me think anyway.There is some membrane along with the waste too though.Better test would of been to weigh the tendon before processng.I keep all the waste for sinew glue anyway.
I'm sure though that some tendons reduce with more useable strands weight wise than others.Still.....this wet way seems to get the best out of them.
Modify post here......The waste needed to dry out.It weighed at 877 grains and usable sinew at 1294 grains.So the waste was around 40% and the usable at 60%.Just figures I know that probably don't make a diff in the end but but still good to know.
-
Will there be some horn going on that bad boy Ed?
-
Jeff.....I know I got enough for overlays that's for sure.It's not a bow yet if it does'nt have a string on it a wise old man told me once.....lol.
Modify post here for willie....I'll have to try that knox gelatin hide glue sometime.Some valuable figures you've shown comparing shrinking percentages of different types of hide glue.I would suppose the most shrinkage would be the strongest.You should show some made sinewed bows yourself sometime.
In the past at first I used fredrix/rabbit hide glue even on very extreme designs with no failures yet.My own homemade sinew glue too.I have yet to mix the fish bladder glue with to slow the gelling process down.I've always been able to modify my surroundings to prolong the gelling time.I'm usually one that does'nt like to change horses in the middle of the stream so I'm still using fredrix or sinew glue that's proven to me to be good enough.Some hide and bladder type glues I keep on hand here:
(https://i.imgur.com/J1WcnYc.jpg)
-
Willie, Thanks for the data on glue shrink.
Ed, you have a bow there that will get real benefits from a good sinew backing. Looking forward to seeing it complete
-
Ed, you have a bow there that will get real benefits from a good sinew backing. Looking forward to seeing it complete
x2
-
Ed...looking forward to seeing that bow at the flight shoot... :OK
-
Thanks fellas I'll see what happens with it.
Bob...I would of liked to that's for sure but I'm afraid it would'nt be cured enough yet by Mo Jam time.How are you coming along with your sinewed bows?
-
both are drying...as long as possible... :) I will skin both but I'm afraid that they will need to dry quite awhile again after I do...
-
I always wanted to try that Korean method, I have seen it on a few video's seems it can be laid down in even strait amounts, I'm following this one any thing that can make sinew processing easier gets my vote.
-
I'm still using fredrix or sinew glue that's proven to me to be good enough.Some hide and bladder type glues I keep on hand here:
quite a collection Ed, I am going to collect some halibut skin to render, and see what I get.
Knox has it's own process to make glue, and I have also heard that it is a bone glue. Dont know if that is why my testing and Tim's turned out differently, though.